A different view of NO

[Albany,n.y.]

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026

 

I haven't seen this angle discussed so bluntly. I think the right wil like this better than the left.

[Ghost of BiB]

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026

 

I haven't seen this angle discussed so bluntly.  I think the right wil like this better than the left.

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This should get interesting.

[IDBillzFan]

Jack Wakeland then told me that early reports from CNN and Fox indicated that the city had no plan for evacuating all of the prisoners in the city's jails—so they just let many of them loose.

 

Unsubstantiated, yes. But if this even REMOTELY turns out to be true, I can't possibly imagine a world where certain people are going to be able to live with themselves.

[UConn James]

Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them?

 

Shown also in the condition of the bathrooms in the Superdome on Tuesday. Soiled diapers all over the floor, toilet stalls that were just covered in brown.... Guess someone never taught them to try to sh-- in the toilet or to put trash in the can, or barring that, pile it in a corner instead of where you need to walk. I understand a hurricane wiped things out, but this is basic sanitation for the place you're staying.

 

There is a difference b/w giving people a leg up when they need it, and giving an able-bodied but weak-minded person a wheelchair. Unfortunately, these groups are often lumped together in the public conciousness and when spending cuts come, they usually most affects those who use the help for good rather than those who make their living off of it.

 

As far as releasing the prisoners, that's in the social contract upon which this country is founded. The State puts people in prison on behalf of the People and it's something that if you're going to take away people's liberty, you have to pay for it. At such time as the State cannot hold them with the resources at hand, or their lives are in jeopardy from natural disaster, they are set free to try and live, as they were not handed death sentences; it's kind of along the lines of 'Better to let an innocent man go free...." Sucks that they're out and have committed more crimes, and there is part of everyone that reasons, Why not just let them die in the prison? when we hear about the stuff that happened. Still, we are a nation of laws. They will eventually be rounded up as things get more closely back to order or they will likely recidivate.

[SilverNRed]

     

 

Unsubstantiated, yes. But if this even REMOTELY turns out to be true, I can't possibly imagine a world where certain people are going to be able to live with themselves.

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Guess that would explain the "Escape from N.Y." situation in New Orleans most of the past week - it literally *was* "Escape from N.Y."!!

[IDBillzFan]

As far as releasing the prisoners, that's in the social contract upon which this country is founded.

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I don't like disagreeing with people who use "decidivate" in a sentence, but how about this scenario from the prison officials: "Gee, the entire city of NO is being asked to evacuate three days before a hurricane. What should we do with the prisoners? Ahhh, let's just let them free and we can all run for the hills."

 

Yeah, I know, where WOULD you put them? Still, someone should have had a plan in place. Letting them go free is a !@#$ed up plan and an even more !@#$ed up law. The more I learn about the people running New Orleans, the more I think God had a reason for hitting it.

[BigAL]

I don't like disagreeing with people who use "decidivate" in a sentence, but how about this scenario from the prison officials: "Gee, the entire city of NO is being asked to evacuate three days before a hurricane. What should we do with the prisoners? Ahhh, let's just let them free and we can all run for the hills."

 

Yeah, I know, where WOULD you put them? Still, someone should have had a plan in place. Letting them go free is a !@#$ed up plan and an even more !@#$ed up law. The more I learn about the people running New Orleans, the more I think God had a reason for hitting it.

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The prisoners were not set free. Here's a link to an abcnews report with Senator Landrieu about what happened to the prisoners.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

The prisoners were not set free.  Here's a link to an abcnews report with Senator Landrieu about what happened to the prisoners.

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My recollection is that the full Landrieu account shown described the incredibly valiant and responsible efforts of a particular set of guards and DID Not describe the general disposition of prisoners in the face of the coming hurricane in light of the mandatory evacuation order. It raises an interesting issue for which the answer should be quite findable or it no answer is found it says a lot in and of itself about action by those in charge that they were at best incompetent and and worst pretty inhumane if there is no strategy or plan to deal with these prisoners in light of a mandatory evacuation order.

 

In general, it seems reasonable to me to make a decision to leave the pirsoners in their cells in light of a mandatory evacuation as long as it is judged that the prison has a good chance of surviving the storm.

 

It would strike me that you order a mandatory evacuation of the city not because you are certain it will be destroyed, but as a precaution in that when the hurricane hits you cannot reasonably gurantee safety and after the major storm clean-up and rescue will go better the fewer people there are around.

 

As long as you are reasonably sure that the prison will survive the storm then keeping the prisoners in place is a reasonable thing to do. However, if you have reasomable concerns the prison may be destroyed, you evacuate it completely and remove the prisoners under lock and key before hand not just simply becaise to leave them would be to potentially give a death sentence to someone sentenced tp imprisonment, but you will need to have guards there and they should be evacuated rather than risk death and because any prisoners who survive after the building is destroyed are now free in the ravaged city to break the law if they choose.

 

My guess is that the prisoners remained in lockdown which actually may be one of the safer ways to withstand a hurricane. The man0made disaster of the levees breaking is another issue.

 

This is why the actions described by Sen. Landrieu were so heroic. These guards at great personal risk performed great physical feats which both preserved public safety by holding the prisoners but also save lives by saving the prisoners fro, drowning.

 

It will be interesting to see in the post-mortem what plans there were to both preseve public safety and to save lives in case of disaster. Both things can be done and the question is whether the folks in charge of the prisons did this.

 

As far as the commentary it is interesting but in the end probably has more to do with ideology than reality. The effects of the welfare state is trivia compared to the relaity of the situation. The idea that this clustewhat happened due to the existence of the welfare state and not due to the actions and decisions of individuals who should be praised or punished by society based on their individual action misses the boat of reality.

 

Some folks were heroic and deserve praise and thanks and some folks were idiots and deserve the appripriate censure and whether there is a welfare state or not you will have both types.

[KD in CA]

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026

 

People living in piles of their own trash, while petulantly complaining that other people aren't doing enough to take care of them and then shooting at those who come to rescue them—this is not just a description of the chaos at the Superdome. It is a perfect summary of the 40-year history of the welfare state and its public housing projects.

 

 

Bullseye.

[erynthered]

Bullseye.

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Nice, wasnt it? I'm still wondering why this thread hasnt had as much activity as I thought it would.

 

 

I liked the article too Kev.........................

[SDS]

Nice, wasnt it? I'm still wondering why this thread hasnt had as much activity as I thought it would.

I liked the article too Kev.........................

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cause we aren't supposed to talk about those unpleasant realities in public.

[BigAL]

Nice, wasnt it? I'm still wondering why this thread hasnt had as much activity as I thought it would.

I liked the article too Kev.........................

430048[/snapback]

The article is all about assumptions. Assumptions about the people looting & committing crimes, assumptions about whether these same peolple are the ones on welfare, assumptions about the number of trouble makers. For all we know there could be 100 thugs, gang members, criminals or whatever, that have committed the bulk of the crimes and incidents referenced in the article. Until there is more than anecdotal sotries, with specific people involved, their backgrounds, and status, all you have is conjecture. Maybe this intellectual activist will follow up with some research to back up his theory.

[IDBillzFan]

The article is all about assumptions.  Assumptions about the people looting & committing crimes, assumptions about whether these same peolple are the ones on welfare, assumptions about the number of trouble makers.  For all we know there could be 100 thugs, gang members, criminals or whatever, that have committed the bulk of the crimes and incidents referenced in the article.  Until there is more than anecdotal sotries, with specific people involved, their backgrounds, and status, all you have is conjecture.  Maybe this intellectual activist will follow up with some research to back up his theory.

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Why is it that anecdotal stories are okay for deciding who is to blame politically, but they're not good enough to determine who is to blame personally?

[BigAL]

Why is it that anecdotal stories are okay for deciding who is to blame politically, but they're not good enough to determine who is to blame personally?

430537[/snapback]

I think most reasonable people agree that the Federal gov't was at least 24 hours late in responding to Katrina. That's not an anecdotal story. There are plenty of facts that can be used to determine "blame". It's a fact that Mike Brown, the head of FEMA said that the Federal Gov't was unaware of the situation at the Convention Centre/Superdome 2 days after it had been on tv. How can you possibly explain or justify that? I can't explain that anymore than I can explain why Mayor Nagin did not use the city and school buses to evacuate people from New Orleans, instead of taking them to the Superdome. If you want to buy into the "Intellectual Activist's" theory, you have to know at a personal level the status of the people commiting the crimes, and how that relates to welfare. Otherwise, it's just speculation.

[mead107]

if NO was going to use the dome and convention center as e vac centers how come they had no water or food stock piled ???that is not the feds problem .that is the city problem .lots of blame to go around .

[IDBillzFan]

I think most reasonable people agree that the Federal gov't was at least 24 hours late in responding to Katrina.  That's not an anecdotal story.  There are plenty of facts that can be used to determine "blame".  It's a fact that Mike Brown, the head of FEMA said that the Federal Gov't was unaware of the situation at the Convention Centre/Superdome 2 days after it had been on tv.  How can you possibly explain or justify that?  I can't explain that anymore than I can explain why Mayor Nagin did not use the city and school buses to evacuate people from New Orleans, instead of taking them to the Superdome.  If you want to buy into the "Intellectual Activist's" theory, you have to know at a personal level the status of the people commiting the crimes, and how that relates to welfare.  Otherwise, it's just speculation.

430610[/snapback]

If the city managed to get the busses to the Dome and Conv. Center, and get 25,000 people out of the city before the storm hit, no one would be busting the federal government's balls right now because they'd be too busy praising the city, county and state officials for doing such a superb job handling the pending crisis.

 

But the local screwups lead the way to federal criticisms. It's like blaming Nate Clements for the Jacksonville TD at the end of the game in our opener last year. If we stopped the fourth and long, there would have been no need for Nate in the endzone as the clock ticked away.

[BigAL]

If the city managed to get the busses to the Dome and Conv. Center, and get 25,000 people out of the city before the storm hit, no one would be busting the federal government's balls right now because they'd be too busy praising the city, county and state officials for doing such a superb job handling the pending crisis.

 

But the local screwups lead the way to federal criticisms. It's like blaming Nate Clements for the Jacksonville TD at the end of the game in our opener last year. If we stopped the fourth and long, there would have been no need for Nate in the endzone as the clock ticked away.

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All true, but that's got nothing to do with the main premise of the article which is summed up in the last paragraph...

 

"The welfare state—and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages—is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting."

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

All true, but that's got nothing to do with the main premise of the article which is summed up in the last paragraph...

 

"The welfare state—and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages—is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting."

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And what's wrong with that statement?

 

The people left behind were left behind because they expected the government to take care of them rather than taking initiative and responsibility for their OWN PHYSICAL SAFETY.

[RuntheDamnBall]

And what's wrong with that statement?

 

The people left behind were left behind because they expected the government to take care of them rather than taking initiative and responsibility for their OWN PHYSICAL SAFETY.

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Says the armchair quarterback. Real easy to say that without knowing everybody's situations. How are you to know if one of these people was working three jobs and still couldn't afford a way out of town, or if they were welfare-grubbing slobs, for that matter?

 

I take and believe the personal responsibility bit to a point, but there are times when the situation calls for something beyond personal responsibility, namely for people to be good to each other and help one's fellow man.

 

This is just another excuse to fold this terrible mess into.

[BigAL]

And what's wrong with that statement?

 

The people left behind were left behind because they expected the government to take care of them rather than taking initiative and responsibility for their OWN PHYSICAL SAFETY.

431019[/snapback]

Well, as I pointed out in my initial response, there are no facts to support that statement, only conjecture, anecdotes, and unconfirmed reports. But hey, feel free to jump to all the conclusions you want to believe in if it makes you feel better.

[IDBillzFan]

...but there are times when the situation calls for something beyond personal responsibility...

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And that something is called local government with a plan.

[ExiledInIllinois]

And that something is called local government with a plan.

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And when whatever feeble plan they have becomes overwhelmed?

 

What kind of plan do you have for flooding up to the eaves... Besides screaming for help?

 

Maybe you can suggest one that wasn't already shot down by the federal government in the past?

 

Maybe you could suggest one that is favorable to the US federal goverment and their special interests and agenda?

 

Now couple that plan to a scenario that is straight out of The Drowning Pool?

 

Now do understand why the "didn't" have a plan?

 

More Retatta please!

 

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

And when whatever feeble plan they have becomes overwhelmed?

 

What kind of plan do you have for flooding up to the eaves... Besides screaming for help?

431178[/snapback]

 

A planned request for help, maybe? I have no problem with the idea that the federal government in extreme situations should be called upon to help municipalities...but the key phrase there is "be called upon". What was New Orleans' plan? "Uhhh...we'll come up with one later, but right now we expect to be on our own for a week until the feds pull our nuts out of the fire."

 

Basically, it's the difference between screaming for help and planning for help. Apparently most people don't recognize that the feds aren't supposed to just go in and start cleaning sh-- up when it hits the fan...they're supposed to look to local authorities with a greater knowledge of local conditions for the framework to guide them. How the hell are they supposed to do that when the municipal emergency plan is "When confused or when in doubt: run in circles, scream and shout!"?

[ExiledInIllinois]

A planned request for help, maybe?  I have no problem with the idea that the federal government in extreme situations should be called upon to help municipalities...but the key phrase there is "be called upon".  What was New Orleans' plan?  "Uhhh...we'll come up with one later, but right now we expect to be on our own for a week until the feds pull our nuts out of the fire." 

 

Basically, it's the difference between screaming for help and planning for help.  Apparently most people don't recognize that the feds aren't supposed to just go in and start cleaning sh-- up when it hits the fan...they're supposed to look to local authorities with a greater knowledge of local conditions for the framework to guide them.  How the hell are they supposed to do that when the municipal emergency plan is "When confused or when in doubt: run in circles, scream and shout!"?

431217[/snapback]

 

 

I agree with you.

 

NOLA was a "special case."

 

I know this sounds lame though. Here we are railing against special interests and in the same breath making NOLA "special."

 

I look at it like you break it, you own it.

 

More damage has been done to that town by the Corps than you can imagine.

 

I am still waiting for replies to Dan's article. (Maybe somebody replied... I haven't check yet).

 

Why has the Corps been against anyhting but their own canals/navigation/levee plans?

 

Somebody had a good quote about NOLA being "manic." It is so true.

 

Yet, all we want to do is talk about Retatta.

 

I really think the one crowd here that calls the others the HotPocket crowd take a look at itself.

 

I am open for debate

 

[IDBillzFan]

And when whatever feeble plan they have becomes overwhelmed?

 

What kind of plan do you have for flooding up to the eaves... Besides screaming for help?

 

Maybe you can suggest one that wasn't already shot down by the federal government in the past?

 

Maybe you could suggest one that is favorable to the US federal goverment and their special interests and agenda?

 

Now couple that plan to a scenario that is straight out of The Drowning Pool?

 

Now do understand why the "didn't" have a plan?

 

More Retatta please!

 

 

431178[/snapback]

Oh, please. It doesn't take away from the fact that it was, in your words, A FEEBLE PLAN! Now the government is supposed to stand around saying "Gee, those idiots in NO don't have a good plan for a disaster. We better start printing more money and coming up with excuses so when thousands of people die at their hands we can cover their asses."

 

ANY plan would have been better than the schoolyard play drawn up in the dirt by the local officials and its the local officials who should be held completely and totally accountable for this murderous debacle.

[SilverNRed]

Oh, please. It doesn't take away from the fact that it was, in your words, A FEEBLE PLAN! Now the government is supposed to stand around saying "Gee, those idiots in NO don't have a good plan for a disaster. We better start printing more money and coming up with excuses so when thousands of people die at their hands we can cover their asses."

 

ANY plan would have been better than the schoolyard play drawn up in the dirt by the local officials and its the local officials who should be held completely and totally accountable for this murderous debacle.

431269[/snapback]

Don't forget that Gov. Blanco needed those extra 24 hours to make a decision after everything was already going to hell. At least, that's according to Mayor Nagin, who strikes me as the type of politician who would gladly say anything to cover his own ass.

[LabattBlue]

ANY plan would have been better than the schoolyard play drawn up in the dirt by the local officials and its the local officials who should be held completely and totally accountable for this murderous debacle.

431269[/snapback]

LA...I agree 100%. Since this happened, the mayor has done nothing but piss and moan about how EVERYBODY ELSE is f**ing up, but not once talking about his own inadequacies as mayor of the city of New Orleans.

[ExiledInIllinois]

You guys really, REALLY don't realize how much power the USACE wields.

 

Even being slashed to pieces.

 

[Terry Tate]

'Some people became animals,' Vasilioas Tryphonas said Sunday morning as he sipped a hot beer in Johnny White's Sports Bar on Bourbon Street. 'We became more civilized.'

 

Nobody became anything, Mr. Tryphonas. You were already civilized, and they were already animals. The hurricane removed the stick frames, and exposed foundations.

[aussiew]

ANY plan would have been better than the schoolyard play drawn up in the dirt by the local officials and its the local officials who should be held completely and totally accountable for this murderous debacle.

 

Exactly - I was in NO on that Saturday and I see it this way as well. The mandatory evacuation order came AFTER:

 

1. Almost all gas stations in the city were closed

2. All but one airline had cancelled their Sunday flights out of New Orleans. Why did Delta cancel all their flights after 2pm on Saturday - a full 50 hours before the storm was due? Then, why did AA cancel all flights after 7:15am on Sunday morning - 24 hours before the storm? etc. etc. The airline's decisions to start canceling so early caused thousands of tourists to be stranded.

3. All but one rental car agency had closed their facilities - their employees went home to make plans to evacuate.

4. Most of the city buses had stopped running - again, their employees had gone home to deal with their own families.

 

The local officials did a great job of standing in front of TV cameras telling people to leave the city. But there was NO DAMN PLAN to offer any method of conveyance to the tourists or the poor.

 

Emergency plans must come from the local level first.

[KD in CA]

I think most reasonable people agree that the Federal gov't was at least 24 hours late in responding to Katrina. 

 

If you want to buy into the "Intellectual Activist's" theory, you have to know at a personal level the status of the people commiting the crimes, and how that relates to welfare.  Otherwise, it's just speculation.

430610[/snapback]

 

 

Who exactly are these "reasonable people" and what support do you have for that claim? My sister in law was rescued from a flooded section of the city within 48 hours of the storm hitting, so no, the federal government wasn't 24 hours late.

 

She also saw the crimes being committed and who was doing it. As did anyone who was watching CNN as they interviewed looters coming out of the sneaker stores. Any 'reasonable people' will certainly agree on who was committing the crimes.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Exactly - I was in NO on that Saturday and I see it this way as well. The mandatory evacuation order came AFTER:

 

1.  Almost all gas stations in the city were closed

2.  All but one airline had cancelled their Sunday flights out of New Orleans. Why did Delta cancel all their flights after 2pm on Saturday - a full 50 hours before the storm was due? Then, why did AA cancel all flights after 7:15am on Sunday morning - 24 hours before the storm? etc. etc. The airline's decisions to start canceling so early caused thousands of tourists to be stranded.

3.  All but one rental car agency had closed their facilities - their employees went home to make plans to evacuate.

4.  Most of the city buses had stopped running - again, their employees had gone home to deal with their own families.

 

The local officials did a great job of standing in front of TV cameras telling people to leave the city. But there was NO DAMN PLAN to offer any method of conveyance to the tourists or the poor.

 

Emergency plans must come from the local level first.

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I am not trying to slam you Aussie... You forget this is America... We only help AFTER the tragedy... Before the crisis, it will cost you!

 

 

What you say appears true. Another conundrum. A riddle that appears to be valid one way only to come up invalid all other ways.

 

Here is a plan... Why didn't they just over-build the levees?

 

Can the local authorites tell Delta to fly, rental car agencies to open, and gas stations to sell gas?

 

I agree about the bus thing... Then...

 

Anything would have been better... Even if they would have put the buses loaded on a gridlocked interstate trying to get out before the storm.

 

When the storm hit... At least all the bodies would have been in close proximity.

 

The ones (buses) that didn't get hit by the storm could have driven around in circles until they pumped out NO. (Sean Penn take note!!)

 

Just as you can tell Delta to fly, gas stations to sell gas, and rental car agencies to stay open... You can surely tell some other area in some other state to take your 100,000k residents.

 

Just call it the "NOLA Magical Mystery Tour."

 

Side note... People call a PFD (personal floatation device) a "life-jacket"... I disagree, it is a PFD, it is not necessarily going to save your life.

 

The buses were exactly that.

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Who exactly are these "reasonable people" and what support do you have for that claim? My sister in law was rescued from a flooded section of the city within 48 hours of the storm hitting, so no, the federal government wasn't 24 hours late.

 

She also saw the crimes being committed and who was doing it.  As did anyone who was watching CNN as they interviewed looters coming out of the sneaker stores.  Any 'reasonable people' will certainly agree on who was committing the crimes.

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What are you trying to say here?

 

Your sister-in-law probably had special priority status?

 

 

 

Who? The looters? The rapists? Etc...

 

And of course as a reansonable person would do, she saw what was going on and ran the other way.

 

[KD in CA]

Your sister-in-law probably had special priority status?  

 

Well, clearly. She's white.

 

 

And of course as a reansonable person would do, she saw what was going on and ran the other way.

 

 

433600[/snapback]

 

 

Despite the very bad decision her group made to ride out the storm, afterwards they did do what a reasonable person should have done: They took some responsibility for their own situation and looked for a way out. So despite being in a building surrounded by 4' of water, by Wednesday AM, they made their way to a spot where helicopters picked them up and were flown to busses so they could get out of the city.

 

I suppose it helped their cause that they didn't stop to loot Foot Locker, rape anyone or shoot at their rescuers.

[BRH]

Y'all who are slamming the local government folks can have fun reading this article about the woeful incompetent who sits right at the top of FEMA.

 

Username and password are both the same (lifted from bugmenot): "digital"

 

Staggering. Just staggering.

[Dan Gross]

The buses were exactly that.

 

 

433572[/snapback]

 

The point is not whether the gov't could have ordered airlines and rental companies re-opened, but rather why wait until airports,etc were already closed to give the mandatory evacuation order?

 

And as far as the buses not being able to get out, how many people were killed in their vehicles in this gridlock you said was going on when the storm hit? And again, you do the mandatory evacuation sooner, you have more time to move...

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Y'all who are slamming the local government folks can have fun reading this article about the woeful incompetent who sits right at the top of FEMA.

 

Username and password are both the same (lifted from bugmenot):  "digital"

 

Staggering.  Just staggering.

433781[/snapback]

 

Cut and paste from an earlier post...

 

And why weren't you bitching about this administration's handling of FEMA and appointment of Brown earlier? Probably because you've conveniently forgotten that FEMA and its current director received high marks during last year's hurricane season.

[BRH]

Cut and paste from an earlier post...

 

And why weren't you bitching about this administration's handling of FEMA and appointment of Brown earlier? Probably because you've conveniently forgotten that FEMA and its current director received high marks during last year's hurricane season.

433949[/snapback]

FEMA and its current director received high marks last year because the brunt of the hurricane season hit Florida.

 

I'll take "Who's the Governor of Florida" for $200, Alex.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

FEMA and its current director received high marks last year because the brunt of the hurricane season hit Florida.

 

I'll take "Who's the Governor of Florida" for $200, Alex.

433950[/snapback]

 

Yeah. It probably has nothing to do with Florida, being hit in an average year by more hurricanes than New Orleans sees in a quarter-century, being more prepared.

[erynthered]

Yeah.  It probably has nothing to do with Florida, being hit in an average year by more hurricanes than New Orleans sees in a quarter-century, being more prepared. 

433972[/snapback]

 

 

Na, dont ask us here in Florida how to execute local and state hurricaane plans. Ask FEMA or the RED Cross, maybe even the Feds how Florida should act in an emergency sitution. They'll know better than us. And if they dont, we'll blame them anyway.