Reed's drop vs. Haddad's fumble

[Dr. K]

I didn't see the game--it wasn't available in Raleigh--but I've followed the talk on the board. Some here say Reed's dropping a TD pass means he should be cut. He may well be cut, I don't know how that will play out. Buthe did catch a pass on the very next play for a first down.

 

Haddad apparently fumbled a punt for a turnover, but a penalty erased that, and on the re-kick he had a good return.

 

So both of them screwed up and then made up for it on the next play. Why more attention to Reed's drop than Haddad's fumble?

 

I'd like to see the Bills keep both of them. But I trust the coaching staff to keep the top six receivers and will accept their conclusion.

[/dev/null]

because in the spirit of Frigggginn Lonnie, RJ, Eddie Robinson, & Travis Henry, TSW needs a whipping boy

[Reuben Gant]

I couldn't tell for sure from the TV, but it sure looked to me that the ball came out on Haddad after he was down.

[jayg]

Haddad was hit very hard from what I remember( It was 330AM or so and I was half asleep). The ball looked like it bounced off Reeds's shoulder pad or chest. Looks as though he should have caught the pass. I'm gonna watch the tape again in a few minutes.

 

 

I didn't see the game--it wasn't available in Raleigh--but I've followed the talk on the board.  Some here say Reed's dropping a TD pass means he should be cut.  He may well be cut, I don't know how that will play out.  Buthe did catch a pass on the very next play for a first down.

 

Haddad apparently fumbled a punt for a turnover, but a penalty erased that, and on the re-kick he had a good return.

 

So both of them screwed up and then made up for it on the next play.  Why more attention to Reed's drop than Haddad's fumble?

 

I'd like to see the Bills keep both of them.  But I trust the coaching staff to keep the top six receivers and will accept their conclusion.

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[stevestojan]

Haddad was hit very hard from what I remember( It was 330AM or so and I was half asleep). The ball looked like it bounced off Reeds's shoulder pad or chest. Looks as though he should have caught the pass. I'm gonna watch the tape  again in a few minutes.

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If by "shoulder pad or chest" you mean "the palms of both hands", then yes, the ball Reed missed hit him in the shoulder pad or chest.

 

 

Reed is taking up valuable roster space.

[JimBob2232]

Reed did drop that TD Pass...but it was NOT an easy catch. Cut the guy some slack (on that play at least). He looked good to me last night.

[The_Real]

Reed did drop that TD Pass...but it was NOT an easy catch.  Cut the guy some slack (on that play at least).  He looked good to me last night.

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Disagree, with that entirely. Go back and take another look J_B. That ball hit him right in the hands and he was the only one who had a chance at the ball. From my years in football they always said if you get both hands on the ball you should catch it.

 

 

He should of caught the ball. No excuses. I've seen this guy drop passes like that for too long. It's time to cut him.

 

t-r

[Tom]

Cut'm both & sighn Carrot-Top!

[Billsgirl]

I agree... I think the football popped out after Haddad was on the ground. I really didn't feel it was a fumble. Reed, however, SHOULD HAVE HAD THE BALL. I was sitting in the rockpile, right at the end where the touch down should have been, and it was apparent that it hit him in the hands and he dropped it. yeah, there was a guy on him, but in my opinion there really was no excuse for the incompletion.

 

I would love to see Reed prove himself. I think he's got alot of potential and you see it time to time. however, he makes wayyyyyyyy too many mistakes out there.

[Brandon]

Why more attention to Reed's drop? Haddad's fumble can be written off as a one-time mistake. Reed, on the other hand, has made a habit of developing butterfingers at the most inopportune of times. His job is to catch passes and through three years he's proven that he can't do that on a consistent basis.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Reed should not and will not be cut due to one catch and Haddad will not be kept or cut due to one fumble or return. The competition between several players vying for a WR roster spot (even if it is #6 WR and their contribution to the team is actuall on ST) is close and will be determined as much as by how the whole team fits together and the holes that these folks fill.

 

There are 2 pieces of good news in this for the Bills.

 

1. We are several options of how things can be put together to create a productive team and the individual or relative capabilities of individual players matters less than filling all the team's needs and across the board there are several acceptable options for doing this (ie, Haddad may be a better WR than Reed but it it is perceived Reed is a more viable back-up KR to McGee than Haddad because a decision has been made to cut Lee then you likely keep Reed because neither will see #3 duty if Parrish is healthy- this is cited just as a hypothetical to make the general point because I actually guess Haddad is a better KR guy than Reed).

 

2. This decision matters very little as I think it is doubtful that Reed or Haddad will play a critical or potentially even a useful role on this team since we have better likely options at PR, KR, and at #3 WR assuming Parrish comes back.

 

Right now my overall sense is that:

 

1. Reed- came in as the favorite to win a roster spot as a WR and maybe even the #3 WR if he excelled and showed performance ability like he did as a rookie. However he has not done this as #3 even though an injury to Parrish gave him a chance. He simply has not made the tough catches like the TD yesterday or a lowball from JP last week he and JP thought he caught but the refs did not and what they say is the reality. He did lead the team in receptions last night and got more yards receiving than Haddad but did not make a couple of plays he needed to make to command the role.

 

Decisions about him will revolve around the chance he has provided for others to step up and his practice performance (reports on TSW are pretty unreliable in this regard as most commentators have their favorite and see the results of practice in a manner that suits their pre-existing choice). If MM is given another chance to send a message that on-field production is what matters and not cap hit then Reed has not performed well enough not be provide a bigger contribution to the Bills by getting cut so Haddad, Freddy Smith or Wilson send a message that on-field production will be rewarded.

 

2. Parrish- will stay in his first year as our top pick as his future promise and cap hit guarantee this. Uncertainty on his injury status is useful to the Bills as it keeps the stakes very high for those in the mix at #3 and if he suits up he need not really be able to be more than adequate as a receiver since his wheels are fine and when in he will have to be covered by a fast DB forcing the opposing DC to either put a slower guy on the speedy Evans or play a zone.

 

If he can play and be an even adequate pass catcher with his wounded wrist he will play.

 

3. Aiken - Likely #5 on the WR depth chart when pre-season started behind Parrish and Reed (and starters Moulds and Evans). He has not demanded PT as he needed to do as a WR and I assume he remains in the mix and the same on ST but the general quality of our depth means he will need to create reason to keep him with production and that is not there yet.

 

4. Haddad- Probably the player who has most demanded that he see some PT with his production in games. Even better for the Bills is that he has made things difficult by showing both PR ability (the fumble is a reality but quite frankly was neutralized as a problem by the penalty and him bouncing back with a great PR on the rekick. As a position player he does not have the Combine jets to force coverage like Parrish does that can make Evans and Moulds better players based on rep alone, but he simply has proved to be a reliable catcher getting a deflected ball last week. If he continues to perform the next two weeks like he has the last two he will be very difficult to cut even though there are as many as 3 guys ahead him on PR (Clements, Smith, Parrish) and 2 credible choices behind him (Leonhard and Lee). I like the hands team we can put out if he is a keeper.

 

5. Smith- Likely a 36 WR if kept as he does not seem to have the discipline and focus to be a WR. He likely will stay if MM decides Clements is too valuable as a CB to risk him on PR (likely unless our W/L forces us to go with maximum talent everywhere) or if there is any issues regarding Parrish's health that make this player who scored a TD on PR and produced a couple of longer returns last year.

 

6. Wilson- Impressive on field production but likely camp fodder at this crowded position. May stick on larger PS if he shows some good ST ability.

 

7. Brown, Peoples- Brown came in with some buz but someone needs to make a case that he is a keeper.

 

I think we keep 6 WRs but this comes down to a decision on whether to sit Clements or not on PR (I think we have enough depth at DB that I say use him up on PR and if he gets hurt, maybe we get to sign him at cut rate Andre Reed bad break prices to play CB for us). I think the winner of the Reed/Aiken/Haddad battle will be determined by game production the next two pre-season games.

[San-O]

Reed did drop that TD Pass...but it was NOT an easy catch.  Cut the guy some slack (on that play at least).  He looked good to me last night.

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Four year pro, no more slack.

 

[San-O]

Reed should not and will not be cut due to one catch

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It's not one catch, it's a pattern of dropped passes. He had at least

one drop last week also.

 

He had 16 catches last year and 5 drops.

 

His time is over. He IS taking up space.

[mravenger]

Reed Should have caught the pass there is no doubt about it I think is day is done I'm really ticked that roscoe got hurt I thought that he would be the reason for reed to go away!

[Thailog80]

We didn't draft Haddad in the second round that's why.

[HurlyBurly51]

Reed did drop that TD Pass...but it was NOT an easy catch.  Cut the guy some slack (on that play at least).  He looked good to me last night.

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It definitely should have been caught, but in all fairness I think he had one of the two defenders around him draped around his hips and jarred his body enough while he was attempting to complete the catch to cause it to pop loose. Not the easy catch I expected by reading the board before I watched the game myself. He looked good the rest of the time he was in there, including some nice blocking.

[jarthur31]

Haddad apparently fumbled a punt for a turnover, but a penalty erased that, and on the re-kick he had a good return.

 

So both of them screwed up and then made up for it on the next play.  Why more attention to Reed's drop than Haddad's fumble?

 

 

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Simply because Reed has had many more drops in his career in Buffalo than Haddad did in his! See the logic?

 

If a receiver can't catch in this league, he won't work very long at this level for any other team.

[BADOLBILZ]

It definitely should have been caught, but in all fairness I think he had one of the two defenders around him draped around his hips and jarred his body enough while he was attempting to complete the catch to cause it to pop loose.  Not the easy catch I expected by reading the board before I watched the game myself.  He looked good the rest of the time he was in there, including some nice blocking.

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Josh Reed is a posession receiver, at this point, making excuses for his drop of ANY pass that hits him in the hands is ridiculous. The guy was once a top flight pass catcher, he clearly has lost hand/eye coordination and/or confidence and the bottom line is that his ceiling is not high enough to justify years of waiting for him to snap out of it.

 

He was a reach early in the second round, and only worthy of a first day pick at all because he was a polished receiver. If I remember correctly, a decent NFL receiver drops approximately 6% of the balls thrown to him, Reed is probably near 20% drops for the last 2 seasons, and nothing has changed in camp this season. It's frustrating, because he is good at setting up 2-3 yards in front of the sticks, then beating the DB after the catch for the first down yardage.

[Kelly the Dog]

The difference is, in the NFL you cannot miss opportunities like that and be a playoff or championship team. This was a touchdown, and in fact, an easy touchdown. He had the ball in both of his hands and it wasn't jarred loose by anything but Josh Reed's hands. I could excuse a dropped pass, because he made three nice plays, two of which were very nice. But you cannot drop a touchdown when the ball is there, especially as Badol said, when you're a possession receiver.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

It's not one catch, it's a pattern of dropped passes.  He had at least

one drop last week also.

 

He had 16 catches last year and 5 drops.

 

His time is over.  He IS taking up space.

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Agreed that right now Reed is likely behind Haddad in impressiveness and performance this pre-season. However, there are enough factors at work here that is appears a close call as to who stays and who goes at WR because their are a lof of factors at work that MM and the braintrust will want from out #4 and # WRs and simply because the jury is still way out on who is going to be cut at other positions that can fulfill those needs and none of us TSWites can really have or judge all the the data the coaches will use to make their choices it really is too close to call.

 

On catch or drop may provide the marginal difference that puts Reed. Haddad or whomever over the top or below the line but I agree with you that it will be in the context of the whole career or a player because that will be relevant to judging his prospects.

 

I think one must take into account Reed's huge droppsie case year before last and persistent droppsies since he improved on that horrid performance which is simply unacceptable for a posserssion WR.

 

However, just as it would be silly to ignore his histories of drops, it would also be silly to ignore that he has performed in the NFL his first year.

[Coach Tuesday]

Also don't forget ECONOMICS. Reed makes what, five times what Haddad would make next year? Last or second-to-last year of his second-round pick deal? Cut his a$$, keep two guys around to replace him (Haddad and Wilson), and you'll still have money left over.

 

Reed lacks confidence - to the point where he actively admits it to anyone who asks. There is nothing more dangerous or pathetic than an NFL player who lacks confidence.

 

Buh-bye.

[Mark Vader]

He should have caught the pass. It was not an easy pass to catch, but you have to catch those tough passes if you want to be in the NFL.

Still, Reed did have 3 receptions in that game, and he is a good blocking receiver.

Yes he has dropped many a pass, but I have also seen numerous dropped passes by both Aiken and Smith as well.

 

My final WR depth chart prediction: Moulds, Evans, Parrish, Reed, Haddad, & Wilson.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Also don't forget ECONOMICS.  Reed makes what, five times what Haddad would make next year?  Last or second-to-last year of his second-round pick deal?  Cut his a$$, keep two guys around to replace him (Haddad and Wilson), and you'll still have money left over. 

 

Reed lacks confidence - to the point where he actively admits it to anyone who asks.  There is nothing more dangerous or pathetic than an NFL player who lacks confidence.

 

Buh-bye.

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Actually, I think the financial aspect is a secondary (if not tertiary consideration for the coaching staff judging by their past actions. They cut Bobby Shaw last year even though he was on the roster long enough that we were on the hook for his whole salary whether he was with us or not.

 

It was great to see the braintrust make a move which cost the Bills $ in terms of a roster replacement for Shaw in order to take the chance to find some help and send a sport rather than business message to the team.

 

If anything if economics are a driver it cuts in Reed's favor because his cap hit is substantially higher than Haddad's or Aiken's not becaise he will be be paid so much more than them in base salary this year but because the bonus already paid to him as a 2nd round pick is prorated each year over the life of the contract. If you want to see the true difference look at Clumpy's salary page at Billszone.com. The difference in base salary is not 5 times but actually in the tens of thousands of dollars. it cut ins Reeds favor as if cut his bonus becomes deadspace a sign of GM miscalculation.

 

Hpwever. from the start where TD screwed up by extending deals for Holocek and Jones who were then cut the team chose their player judgment (even though that turned out to be wrong as Raion Hill could not do the job and a poor assessment of how much Jenkins had left made Wire a starter at SS when he could not handle the job and led to the Bills being forced to make a huge payment to Milloy because the market demanded it.

 

In addition, TD also paid a huge bonus to get Jason Glidon to sign but rather than keep him because they paid him they cut him.

 

The economics are diffenrent than you lay our and thank gosh the Bills do not give it the weight you seem to.