Allen vs Mahomes, is this a controversial take?

[MJS]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I mean I've watched his defenses for 16 years also struggle in situational moments 

 

The difference is he has Chris Jones who collapses a pocket fast and wrecks games rn and is healthy in the playoffs 

 

He has made plenty of bad calls in fact his defense got his ass whooped for four quarters in the super bowl 

 

 and I've also seen plenty of McDermott defenses make plays in the last 2 minutes of games over his 16 years as a defensive coordinator and head coach 

 

It's not even close.. if you gave McDermott and spagnola access to all 32 defenses for one game who would do better with 32 

 

McDermott would have much more success than spagnola 

 

If you take Total defense.. passing yards against, passing touchdowns against, rushing yards against, rushing touchdowns against and turnovers... McDermott and spagnola have both been head coaches or defensive coordinators for 16 years and Sean McDermott is well ahead of him for top 10 defenses when you take all those metrics

I agree that McDermott is a good defensive coach and has produced overall better than Spagnola, but I maintain that Spagnola tends to come out stronger in the big moments and the big games than does McDermott, especially in the playoffs where it matters most.

[Billl]

6 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

 

Bills defense:

- Surrendered more points to the Chiefs than any other team all season.

- Had to face the 17th ranked offense by yards, 15th ranked offense by points
 

Bills offense:

- Scored more points against the Chiefs than any other team to that point (other than Bills part 1 and week 17 with all backups).

- Scored the most points in a game vs KC in Arrowhead since October 10, 2022 (for any team).

- Had to face the 9th ranked defense by yards, 4th ranked defense by points

Bills defense wasn't very good in the regular season, and nobody really expected them to be (it was supposed to be a reload year where younger players got some playing time and we ate dead cap).

Since Allen has been in the league, the Bills have averaged allowing 19 PPG in the 9 postseason games when they aren’t playing the Chiefs.  They have averaged allowing 33 PPG in the 4 games when they are.  Is it just a giant coincidence that the Bills only forget how to play defense against the Chiefs, or could it possibly be that Mahomes and company are just on another level when the season is on the line?

[Buffalo4Life01]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

We can't beat KC in the playoffs is the point lol

 

Every single year they score more against us than anyone else

All I'm trying to say is that crying about it and trying to mount any type of defense for Allen being a better QB that Mahomes is just plain silly and childish.  Sadly there are more than a handfull of Bills fans and homers who will die on this hill no matter how it makes them look.  We've had our chances multiple times and have not been able to get it done for a variety of reasons.  That's all that matters.  Hopefully this season will see new chapters written and in our favor!

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo4Life01 said:

I don't agree with you but I appreciate your take.  I'm just frustrated that we wine and cry and complain and fight to the death that Allen is better than Paddy.  Until the hardware is equal or much closer, no one outside of some Bills fans will ever believe that or give any credit to that thought process.  Just reality.  

 

Every fanbase of those 4 teams has an argument for why their QB is the best. Lamar unfortunately has a lot of bad playoff performances on his record and unlike Allen and Burrow he has an excellent roster, so he probably has the least excuses for why he hasn't gotten his Super Bowl yet. But like I said the differences in play are negligible. When you're playing at the level those 4 guys are over the course of a season, the ranking comes down to any given week. If you want to say Mahomes has been the most clutch out of all of them, I think that narrative is slightly overblown but I won't fight it. I'd add the context that the team around him has also been more clutch than the other 3 teams. Also game winning drives has never in history been used as a bulletproof argument for ranking QBs. It's for sure the stat that more than anything else makes him a tier 1 QB, but just plugging your ears and ignoring what happens over the first 55 minutes of the game isn't a sound process.

 

So I default to my original stance that there are 4 elite QBs and each fanbase should feel comfortable proclaiming that theirs is the best one.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo4Life01 said:

All I'm trying to say is that crying about it and trying to mount any type of defense for Allen being a better QB that Mahomes is just plain silly and childish.  Sadly there are more than a handfull of Bills fans and homers who will die on this hill no matter how it makes them look.  We've had our chances multiple times and have not been able to get it done for a variety of reasons.  That's all that matters.  Hopefully this season will see new chapters written and in our favor!

The whole point of the discussion is to add context lol

 

If you just want to say 'hey Allen isn't better until he can beat Mahomes in the playoffs w fewer weapons, zero defense and incompetent coaching' then by all means have at it

[HappyDays]

5 minutes ago, Billl said:

Is it just a giant coincidence that the Bills only forget how to play defense against the Chiefs, or could it possibly be that Mahomes and company are just on another level when the season is on the line?

 

You've manufactured a binary choice. The correct answer which you decided not to include is that Andy Reid has had McDermott's number big time. We run our normal defense that they already saw in the regular season, while they add new wrinkles that we are woefully unprepared for. It's as big a coaching mismatch as I've ever seen between two supposed rival teams.

 

FWIW I think McDermott is a good coach. But he needs to get his nemesis figured out and start performing at even an average level against him - hell I'd take slightly below average - or the result will never change. I'm optimistic that some of the defensive additions on both the roster and coaching staff mean there are real changes coming. But I need to see it happen when it counts.

[TheBrownBear]

1 hour ago, zow2 said:

Yeah, I kind of need a little break from roster talk.

 

I think at this stage of their careers, Allen is the better downfield passer and clearly the better runner (although Pat is a good scrambler when he needs to be and certainly has a good downfield arm when he uses it)..  However, I think many of us have seen that Mahomes is the better dink and dunker.  He's always been.   At the end of those close playoff games when KC needs a critical TD or FG, it's the dink and dunk plus Andy Reid play call mastery that gives KC a slight edge.  We've had two seasons in a row end with the ball in our hands, and the Bills can't take what the D gives and execute a short dump off to get the needed yardage.  I'm just wondering if the Bills start working on that more this season,,, or maybe they keep some plays in their back pocket for critical playoff moments.

It's annoying because we've seen games where Josh has done this masterfully, but it almost seems like he has to place himself in that mindset from the get go or his primitive hero brain takes over.

 

Edit: And I don't mean "Sugar High Josh" or turnover prone play - he's clearly cleaned up that aspect.  Just more - taking the easiest play during crunch time instead of waiting for something bigger to develop.

Edited August 27 by TheBrownBear

[QB Bills]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo4Life01 said:

All I'm trying to say is that crying about it and trying to mount any type of defense for Allen being a better QB that Mahomes is just plain silly and childish.  Sadly there are more than a handfull of Bills fans and homers who will die on this hill no matter how it makes them look.  We've had our chances multiple times and have not been able to get it done for a variety of reasons.  That's all that matters.  Hopefully this season will see new chapters written and in our favor!

Nobody is crying. It's a Bills discussion board. And we're using said board for a discussion about something Bills-related.

 

As for the discussion itself, those of us with critical thinking skills can separate team success from individual player talent. Others, like you, obviously cannot. Just because the chiefs as a team are more successful than the Bills, doesn't make every single player on their team better than every single player on the Bills. 

[Buffalo716]

14 minutes ago, MJS said:

I agree that McDermott is a good defensive coach and has produced overall better than Spagnola, but I maintain that Spagnola tends to come out stronger in the big moments and the big games than does McDermott, especially in the playoffs where it matters most.

Or maybe spagnola has had healthier defenses 

 

I maintain that you're not winning on the road in the playoffs where the talent margin is razor thin and you are severely outmanned 

 

It's one thing with one or two guys on the injury report or banged up... We went into Arrowhead last year with 11 guys on the injury list seven on defense 

 

We have played the Chiefs without Terrell Bernard, and Benford and rapp and Milano on defense... We're trotting out a retired AJ Klein to cover Travis Kelce and we lost by three 

 

  they lost their safety and cornerback once versus us and Josh Allen looked like Superman and Gabe Davis looked like Jerry Rice... 

 

They had no significant injuries going into the bills playoff game last year on defense... We had seven guys scrambling to return from being hurt the week before... Severely banged up on defense 

 

Down our best safety and our best corner we lost by 3 in arrowhead... While also barely getting a bunch of other people ready to play... And we barely lost 

 

Again when the Chiefs lost a corner and a safety gabe Davis looked like Jerry Rice... We've never let one of their lower end players ever do what Gabe Davis did lol

 

Let us get the Chiefs next year without their starting middle linebacker and a corner and we're going to beat them by a lot more than three and then watch how they cry about how unhealthy they are lol

 

We literally had taron Johnson and Benford and rapp and Milano and Williams and cam lewis and Gregg r dinged up going into that game.. and we ended up losing Benford and rapp

 

We've never seen the Chiefs that depleted on defense

 

Edited August 27 by Buffalo716

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, TheBrownBear said:

It's annoying because we've seen games where Josh has done this masterfully, but it almost seems like he has to place himself in that mindset from the get go or his primitive hero brain takes over.

 

Edit: And I don't mean "Sugar High Josh" or turnover prone play - he's clearly cleaned up that aspect.  Just more - taking the easiest play during crunch time instead of waiting for something bigger to develop.

Yes that's what carrying an unreliable defense looks like

 

and unreliable is being kind 

[TheBrownBear]

12 minutes ago, Billl said:

Since Allen has been in the league, the Bills have averaged allowing 19 PPG in the 9 postseason games when they aren’t playing the Chiefs.  They have averaged allowing 33 PPG in the 4 games when they are.  Is it just a giant coincidence that the Bills only forget how to play defense against the Chiefs, or could it possibly be that Mahomes and company are just on another level when the season is on the line?

Obviously, the Chiefs and Mahomes are great, but they seem to overperform against the Bills defense compared to their playoff outputs against other teams.  Not sure if it's personally motivated or just a scheme/matchup thing.  But the Bills D does suck against the Chiefs in the postseason and the Chiefs offense does inordinately excel against the Bills D in those games. Just the facts.

[Buffalo4Life01]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Every fanbase of those 4 teams has an argument for why their QB is the best. Lamar unfortunately has a lot of bad playoff performances on his record and unlike Allen and Burrow he has an excellent roster, so he probably has the least excuses for why he hasn't gotten his Super Bowl yet. But like I said the differences in play are negligible. When you're playing at the level those 4 guys are over the course of a season, the ranking comes down to any given week. If you want to say Mahomes has been the most clutch out of all of them, I think that narrative is slightly overblown but I won't fight it. I'd add the context that the team around him has also been more clutch than the other 3 teams. Also game winning drives has never in history been used as a bulletproof argument for ranking QBs. It's for sure the stat that more than anything else makes him a tier 1 QB, but just plugging your ears and ignoring what happens over the first 55 minutes of the game isn't a sound process.

 

So I default to my original stance that there are 4 elite QBs and each fanbase should feel comfortable proclaiming that theirs is the best one.

We all wear rose colored glasses when we view our teams, some more than others.  It's called fandom.  Just helps to keep things in perspective sometimes.  I hope Allen and Mahomes meet again this year in the playoffs and Allen is victorious.  Would go a long ways to helping to get out of Mahomes shadow.  

[Brand J]

15 minutes ago, Billl said:

Mahomes and company are just on another level when the season is on the line?

This bears out when comparing the Bills regular season defensive performance and postseason performance. Night and day. 

[TheBrownBear]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Yes that's what carrying an unreliable defense looks like

 

and unreliable is being kind 

Josh had the ball in his hands the last two years with under 3 minutes to play and came away with 0 points both times.  That has nothing to do with an "unreliable" defense. Don't get me wrong, I love Josh, but the offense didn't deliver when we needed it to the past two years in that situation.

Edited August 27 by TheBrownBear

[Buffalo4Life01]

3 minutes ago, QB Bills said:

Nobody is crying. It's a Bills discussion board. And we're using said board for a discussion about something Bills-related.

 

As for the discussion itself, those of us with critical thinking skills can separate team success from individual player talent. Others, like you, obviously cannot. Just because the chiefs as a team are more successful than the Bills, doesn't make every single player on their team better than every single player on the Bills. 

If i were a Utah Jazz fan back in the 90's,2000's, I would have used the exact same argument to say Buffalo was just as good as the Chiefs.  That Stockton and Malone were just as good as Jordan and Pippen.  No-one in their right mind outside the great state of Utah would agree with me but I suppose it would help me sleep better at night!

 

[Gregg]

48 minutes ago, Billl said:

 

So when the Bills scored 29 points, it was because of great play by Allen, and when the Chiefs scored 32 points, it was because of poor play by the Bills defense.  Kind of a “heads I win, tails you lose” sort of standard.

 

This game was the only time the Chiefs scored more than 30 points all year. Another wonderful playoff performance by the Bills defense. In the McDermott era the only times I can recall the Bills defense playing well in the playoffs was the 10-3 loss to Jacksonville when the broke their playoff less streak and the 17-3 win over the Ravens when they had the 100-yard pick 6. Otherwise, the D has been mostly **** in the playoffs and that includes games the Bills have won. 

Edited August 27 by Gregg

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Josh had the ball in his hands the last two years with under 3 minutes to play and came away with 0 points both times.  That has nothing to due with an "unreliable" defense. Don't get me wrong, I love Josh, but the offense didn't deliver when we needed it to the past two years in that situation.

The back in your hands things is so painfully reductive

 

So when Mahomes has to settle for a Fg And Butker nails it he's 'clutch' and when Bass misses Allen doesn't deliver🤦

[Buffalo4Life01]

13 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

The whole point of the discussion is to add context lol

 

If you just want to say 'hey Allen isn't better until he can beat Mahomes in the playoffs w fewer weapons, zero defense and incompetent coaching' then by all means have at it

There are always a host of excuses each year after the Bills lose to KC in the playoffs.  KC fans are loving this.  I'm sure our tears are quenching their thirst.  

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, QB Bills said:

Nobody is crying. It's a Bills discussion board. And we're using said board for a discussion about something Bills-related.

 

As for the discussion itself, those of us with critical thinking skills can separate team success from individual player talent. Others, like you, obviously cannot. Just because the chiefs as a team are more successful than the Bills, doesn't make every single player on their team better than every single player on the Bills. 

You’re saying critical thinking when you are talking about hypotheticals that have zero way to be proven. If Allen was the qb with 3 SB wins, 5 SB appearances, multiple MVPs, coming off a 16-1 SB season where he was surrounded by garbage, we would think a fanbase saying their qb who never went to a SB was better than him was crazy. (terrible sentence structure!)

 

Allen is the greatest qb the Bills have ever had. We won’t trade him for anyone.  But discounting a guy who is the running for greatest qb ever just makes look sad. 

[Gregg]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

The back in your hands things is so painfully reductive

 

So when Mahomes has to settle for a Fg And Butker nails it he's 'clutch' and when Bass misses Allen doesn't deliver🤦

 

Last year on the 4th down play Allen made a good throw under a heavy rush. It wasn't an easy catch, but it should have been caught which would have given the Bills a 1st down inside KC territory. 

Edited August 27 by Gregg