TH3 Posted August 16 Posted August 16 36 minutes ago, SectionC3 said: I'll give it a little time. I think the idea was a dumb one, and the theater is ridiculous, but I acknowledge that he probably received some sort of information from Putin (in the form of terms that will be patently unacceptable to Ukraine) that he'll convey to Zelenskyy. Knowing how Trump operates, he'll be coy with the info with Zelenskyy now, bring the guy to the Oval next week, and try to bully him into accepting a lousy deal. Zelenskyy will say no, Trump will stomp his feet, and away we go. I'm not against the idea of talking, but the framework is all wrong. Russia cannot be rewarded for aggression. It might get something it wants (no sanctions, etc.) for leaving, but it cannot be rewarded for aggression. More time ? LOLZ. DT has a complete absence of knowledge on what is going on. Putin wants to takeover Ukraine and expand the Soviet sphere of influence back to the old cccp. He will just keep at it till it either happens or he gets his ass kicked hard enough that he will stop. DT wants a press release….he is completely out of his league in the context of this issue. 2 1
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted August 16 Posted August 16 25 minutes ago, nedboy7 said: FOX headline is Putin blames Biden for the war. Is this bizzaro world? It doesn’t seem that long ago that folks in your camp believed the hype that Putin wanted Clinton to lose, that the Russians were instrumental in her loss, and I recall some folks pointing out Russian state media reports as gospel on a variety of issues. It’s bizarre to think anyone would trust Putin/Russian media on anything said or done, but let’s face the facts. Putin moved on Crimea and Ukraine at specific times, under the watch of specific admins. It seems bizarre to think that coincidental, and that Putin/Russia did not take into account who was in the WH each time. Don’t trust Putin, and of course, it would be wise to extend skepticism to widely reported stories coming from the US intelligence community. See the US, 2015 to current. In fact, probably a good idea to roll that 2015 way, way back as well. 1
nedboy7 Posted August 16 Posted August 16 17 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: It doesn’t seem that long ago that folks in your camp believed the hype that Putin wanted Clinton to lose, that the Russians were instrumental in her loss, and I recall some folks pointing out Russian state media reports as gospel on a variety of issues. It’s bizarre to think anyone would trust Putin/Russian media on anything said or done, but let’s face the facts. Putin moved on Crimea and Ukraine at specific times, under the watch of specific admins. It seems bizarre to think that coincidental, and that Putin/Russia did not take into account who was in the WH each time. Don’t trust Putin, and of course, it would be wise to extend skepticism to widely reported stories coming from the US intelligence community. See the US, 2015 to current. In fact, probably a good idea to roll that 2015 way, way back as well. I think we all know that the only person you can trust is Trump right? The guy is a beacon of integrity. 1 1
aristocrat Posted August 16 Posted August 16 1 hour ago, SectionC3 said: I'll give it a little time. I think the idea was a dumb one, and the theater is ridiculous, but I acknowledge that he probably received some sort of information from Putin (in the form of terms that will be patently unacceptable to Ukraine) that he'll convey to Zelenskyy. Knowing how Trump operates, he'll be coy with the info with Zelenskyy now, bring the guy to the Oval next week, and try to bully him into accepting a lousy deal. Zelenskyy will say no, Trump will stomp his feet, and away we go. I'm not against the idea of talking, but the framework is all wrong. Russia cannot be rewarded for aggression. It might get something it wants (no sanctions, etc.) for leaving, but it cannot be rewarded for aggression. So what’s your ideal peace treaty here? Try to live in reality with this. Not an imaginary land where you tell Russia to leave Ukraine and they just listen. 1
Coffeesforclosers Posted August 16 Posted August 16 (edited) 4 hours ago, aristocrat said: So what’s your ideal peace treaty here? Try to live in reality with this. Not an imaginary land where you tell Russia to leave Ukraine and they just listen. What we should get: everyone keeps what they currently have, Ukraine joins NATO and the EU. A true compromise peace. What we'll probably get. The President forcing Ukraine to abandon NATO aspirations and cede all the Oblasts Russia annexed in their fake referendums. The EU is forced to continue rearming and centralizing if it wants guarantee the security of Baltics and the rump Ukrainian state. Edited August 16 by Coffeesforclosers 2
Joe Ferguson forever Posted August 16 Posted August 16 1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: It doesn’t seem that long ago that folks in your camp believed the hype that Putin wanted Clinton to lose, that the Russians were instrumental in her loss, and I recall some folks pointing out Russian state media reports as gospel on a variety of issues. It’s bizarre to think anyone would trust Putin/Russian media on anything said or done, but let’s face the facts. Putin moved on Crimea and Ukraine at specific times, under the watch of specific admins. It seems bizarre to think that coincidental, and that Putin/Russia did not take into account who was in the WH each time. Don’t trust Putin, and of course, it would be wise to extend skepticism to widely reported stories coming from the US intelligence community. See the US, 2015 to current. In fact, probably a good idea to roll that 2015 way, way back as well. Bill? Bill Barr? Is that you? we believed it because it's true. you fail to acknowledge that part of the Mueller report. https://www.npr.org/2019/04/18/714810702/muellers-report-shows-all-the-ways-russia-interfered-in-2016-presidential-electi
The Frankish Reich Posted August 16 Posted August 16 2 hours ago, aristocrat said: So what’s your ideal peace treaty here? Try to live in reality with this. Not an imaginary land where you tell Russia to leave Ukraine and they just listen. 1. Crimea. Admit that it's gone. Russia took it over a decade ago and the international community did little. It is the bargaining chip. 2. Some minor border adjustments in the Donbas to reflect the reality of the pre-war population (more Russia-oriented) and the current population (basically only Russian and Russian-oriented population left). Ukraine to have a very minor face-saving border adjustment of it's own. 3. Russia to withdraw from all other regions. 4. Status of Ukraine (EU/NATO membership) to be deferred to some kind of peace process. 3 1
Big Blitz Posted August 16 Posted August 16 4 hours ago, SCBills said: Because they know Trump is going to end this sham. Then it will be about caving to Putin somehow. They are pathetic. 2
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted August 16 Posted August 16 2 hours ago, nedboy7 said: I think we all know that the only person you can trust is Trump right? The guy is a beacon of integrity. I absolutely understand why you would not trust Trump, and he’s not a beacon of integrity. I simply pointed out when Putin moved, and who was in office at the time. Your response is typical of the liberal response to that issue. It’s an inconvenient truth. 1 1
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted August 16 Posted August 16 2 hours ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: Bill? Bill Barr? Is that you? we believed it because it's true. you fail to acknowledge that part of the Mueller report. https://www.npr.org/2019/04/18/714810702/muellers-report-shows-all-the-ways-russia-interfered-in-2016-presidential-electi I do not believe Mueller was a beacon of integrity, to quote nedleyboy. I see a political fabrication and ultimately nothing to support attempting to destroy the integrity of a legitimate election where your person lost. I believe Bill Barr was 100% correct on the political persecution angle, believed it then, believe it now. Given the information released thus far on wrongdoing by Obama/Clinton/Buden and the rest, I’m surprised you’re still clinging to your version of political religion. You align nicely with the corruption crowd that wants to move to authoritarian rule. #myopic 2
Figster Posted August 16 Posted August 16 (edited) 2 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said: What we should get: everyone keeps what they currently have, Ukraine joins NATO and the EU. A true compromise peace. What we'll probably get. The President forcing Ukraine to abandon NATO aspirations and cede all the Oblasts Russia annexed in their fake referendums. The EU is forced to continue rearming and centralizing if it wants guarantee the security of Balkans and the rump Ukrainian state. When you look at it from Putin's perspective since the collapse of the Soviet Union. What you suggest we will probably get sounds reasonable IMO. I think Putin has a choice now. Xi hand puppet or partnership with the US... Edited August 16 by Figster
Joe Ferguson forever Posted August 16 Posted August 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: I do not believe Mueller was a beacon of integrity, to quote nedleyboy. I see a political fabrication and ultimately nothing to support attempting to destroy the integrity of a legitimate election where your person lost. I believe Bill Barr was 100% correct on the political persecution angle, believed it then, believe it now. Given the information released thus far on wrongdoing by Obama/Clinton/Buden and the rest, I’m surprised you’re still clinging to your version of political religion. You align nicely with the corruption crowd that wants to move to authoritarian rule. #myopic but you often point to the rest of the report that doesn't implicate trump or russia....i think that's called cherry picking... Edited August 16 by Joe Ferguson forever 1 1
B-Man Posted August 16 Author Posted August 16 19 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: i think that's called cherry picking... I know that response is called…. Irony 1
SectionC3 Posted August 16 Posted August 16 2 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: I do not believe Mueller was a beacon of integrity, to quote nedleyboy. I see a political fabrication and ultimately nothing to support attempting to destroy the integrity of a legitimate election where your person lost. I believe Bill Barr was 100% correct on the political persecution angle, believed it then, believe it now. Given the information released thus far on wrongdoing by Obama/Clinton/Buden and the rest, I’m surprised you’re still clinging to your version of political religion. You align nicely with the corruption crowd that wants to move to authoritarian rule. #myopic What does this mean to you? "At the same time, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, we are unable to reach that judgment. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him." 2 hours ago, Big Blitz said: Because they know Trump is going to end this sham. Then it will be about caving to Putin somehow. They are pathetic. What sham are you talking about? The stupid summit, or Ukranians fighting for freedom and self-determination? 1
Coffeesforclosers Posted August 16 Posted August 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, Figster said: I think Putin has a choice now. Xi hand puppet or partnership with the US... Whatever peace plan gets bandied about, what hasn't been addressed is Russia has the upper hand on the battlefield right now. Russian society also seems ready and willing to eat 120k KIA/year so long as Putin's government keeps the firehose of wartime cash and benefits flowing to them. Putin has the choice of...continuing things as he has since Trump was elected, which has the potential to give him the whole country of Ukraine. So long as North Korea keeps his ammo supplies full and Russian moms and dads keep feeding their boys into the wood chipper for bags of cash, why should he stop? Trump's strategy is all about a negotiated settlement...without providing a concrete reason for Russia to dismiss violence as an option for achieving its aims... Edited August 16 by Coffeesforclosers 2
Figster Posted August 16 Posted August 16 9 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: Whatever peace plan gets bandied about, what hasn't been addressed is Russia has the upper hand on the battlefield right now. Russian society also seems ready and willing to eat 120k KIA/year so long as Putin's government keeps the firehose of wartime cash and benefits flowing to them. Putin has the choice of...continuing things as he has since Trump was elected, which has the potential to give him the whole country of Ukraine. So long as North Korea keeps his ammo supplies full and Russian moms and dads keep feeding their boys into the wood chipper for bags of cash, why should he stop? Trump's strategy is all about a negotiated settlement...without providing a concrete reason for Russia to dismiss violence as an option for achieving its aims... Not sustainable IMO. Loss of life is the Trump card.
Coffeesforclosers Posted August 16 Posted August 16 2 minutes ago, Figster said: Not sustainable IMO. Loss of life is the Trump card. Hopefully. However, Russia has been given chance after chance to negotiate a peace. They have always chosen to negotiate so long as they made no binding commitments and didn't have to submit to a ceasefire. Makes smart people think they want to keep fighting for some reason... 1 1
JDHillFan Posted August 16 Posted August 16 4 hours ago, SectionC3 said: What sham are you talking about? The stupid summit, Now I know why you thought Biden was conducting a master class in foreign policy. Master. Class. It’s because you are absolutely clueless. 1
Joe Ferguson forever Posted August 17 Posted August 17 2 hours ago, JDHillFan said: Now I know why you thought Biden was conducting a master class in foreign policy. Master. Class. It’s because you are absolutely clueless. That is a beautifully written piece. If he himself wrote then author can be added to brave, inspiring leader, successful comedian and dancing with the stars contestant. The guy is f’in amazing what does Biden have to do with the stinking Russians invading Ukraine? 1
JDHillFan Posted August 17 Posted August 17 54 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: what does Biden have to do with the stinking Russians invading Ukraine? Everything. What better time to move than when there is no one at the helm? 1 3
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