Augie Posted July 21 Posted July 21 1 hour ago, chris heff said: What three rosters were better? Just curious I think it was Ravens, Eagles and then Lions with the Chiefs at #5. Look, I’m not married to any one ranking, but we are Super Bowl favorites again for a reason. We probably won’t win the SB, but some people here just love going full Eyore on everyone. We are pretty darn good, deal with it. Yes, we definitely have areas that need improvement, but so does everyone else. 1 Quote
Augie Posted July 21 Posted July 21 1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said: Benford? Shakir? Milano? Don’t forget Dion Dawkins or Spencer Brown, bookend tackles who are pretty darn good. People ignore them because they don’t catch or carry the ball or make splash play on defense, but they count too! 3 Quote
YattaOkasan Posted July 21 Posted July 21 (edited) 47 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: He didnt draft Milano, that was Whaley's crew. And given his injuries, and therefore lack of consistent contribution the last few seasons, it's tough to label him a home run. Benford and Shakir are nice players, but despite what us homers think, neither are game-changing superstar home runs. Solid triples for sure. Maybe home runs if you consider Josh a grand slam... The only other player close to it, the only other player he's drafted to receive All-Pro honors, has been Taron Johnson. But time may be catching up to Taron. For Benford, fewest coverage yards snap is more than nice. Dont know what you are asking for if you think hes just "nice" and not a game changer. Edited July 21 by YattaOkasan 1 Quote
DrDawkinstein Posted July 21 Posted July 21 20 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said: Can’t agree with the Matt Milano take. Milano could never play another down and still be a HR pick (by McD, not Beane.) a handful of seasons at all pro level at any position for a fifth round pick is a gigantic W, That's fine and fair. Not a Beane pick. If you want to credit McD for that, go ahead. But he was using Whaley's scouting. I'd argue that while Beane is a much better Executive at GM overall, Whaley and crew were better scouts/talent evaluators. Whaley got stuck with a carousel of Head Coaches and (especially) Defensive Coordinators always changing schemes, yet always found guys to fit in. 7 minutes ago, Augie said: Don’t forget Dion Dawkins or Spencer Brown, bookend tackles who are pretty darn good. People ignore them because they don’t catch or carry the ball or make splash play on defense, but they count too! Dawkins wasnt a Beane pick either. 2 Quote
DrDawkinstein Posted July 21 Posted July 21 12 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said: For Benford, fewest coverage yards snap is more than nice. Dont know what you are asking for if you think hes just "nice" and not a game changer. That's doing his job well. A game changer is able to make a play all on his own that completely changes the course of the game. Interceptions would be the big thing for CBs there. To that point, Derek Stingley Jr has averaged 5 INTs/year. Benford has 5 total career INTs. Benford is a solid pick, especially in round 5. And I love him on the Bills, dont get me wrong. But he isnt that home run talent I'm talking about. And yes, I'm being very tight and stingy with my rating. 1 Quote
Augie Posted July 21 Posted July 21 7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: That's fine and fair. Not a Beane pick. If you want to credit McD for that, go ahead. But he was using Whaley's scouting. I'd argue that while Beane is a much better Executive at GM overall, Whaley and crew were better scouts/talent evaluators. Whaley got stuck with a carousel of Head Coaches and (especially) Defensive Coordinators always changing schemes, yet always found guys to fit in. Dawkins wasnt a Beane pick either. 8 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: Dawkins wasnt a Beane pick either. You are correct, I was fooled by this: “Brandon Beane, the Buffalo Bills' General Manager, drafted Dion Dawkins in the second round (63rd overall) of the 2017 NFL Draft, according to the Bills Wire. He was selected after a former Bills defensive back, Bryan Scott,announced the pick” I don’t think we’ll ever know exactly what happened in that first draft, weeks before Beane officially became GM. 1 Quote
boater Posted July 21 Author Posted July 21 22 hours ago, GunnerBill said: The 2022 draft was, despite a huge whiff on Elam, Beane's best class since 2018. It was critical too. 2023 only has two starters at this point though. I'm hopeful the 2023 class has a good season this year, hopefully three starters emerge. More likely we will get two starters and one reliable depth piece. I can live with that. 20 hours ago, uticaclub said: Let’s revisit Kincaids snap count after a few weeks and see if he is still considered a starter. I expect a good season from a Kincaid who has recovered from injuries. But I'm an optimistic homer, so there is that. 5 hours ago, billsfan89 said: 2023 had two players come in and “plug and play” on offense while Dorian Williams has started and looks to be a nice find. It’s not a “home run” draft class but if Kincaid rebounds from a disappointing second season and Williams solidifies himself as a solid starter that’s gonna be a good draft class. Especially since the team didn’t have many picks in the draft class and used two selections to move down and pick up two 6th round picks in the 2024 draft. If a draft produces two starters that’s not bad that’s probably an average class but if you can produce three starters on limited picks while that’s not a home run like the 2022 class that’s a very nice draft class that will help sustain winning. I agree. I would grade a 2023 that yielded two starters as a B+ ..not spectacular, but would put the Bills at the 75 percentile of drafting. I think the gold standard of Front Office's is Baltimore. I thought it was all Ozzie Newsome's handiwork, but they continued excellence after he left. Quote
YattaOkasan Posted July 21 Posted July 21 3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: That's doing his job well. A game changer is able to make a play all on his own that completely changes the course of the game. Interceptions would be the big thing for CBs there. To that point, Derek Stingley Jr has averaged 5 INTs/year. Benford has 5 total career INTs. Benford is a solid pick, especially in round 5. And I love him on the Bills, dont get me wrong. But he isnt that home run talent I'm talking about. And yes, I'm being very tight and stingy with my rating. For takeways its 11 for Stingley and 9 for Benford. A lot closer than you make it seem. Stingley misses a lot of tackles . Still not sure what you are thinking for home run talent cause Benford is a top 5 CB in my eyes (could be homer eyes but hes def top 10). Wheres the cutoff between solid pick and home run? If Benford aint a home run hes a triple (critque has been Beane gets lot of singles). Quote
DrDawkinstein Posted July 21 Posted July 21 6 minutes ago, Augie said: I don’t think we’ll ever know exactly what happened in that first draft, weeks before Beane officially became GM. We already know exactly what happened. McD worked with Whaley and his scouting crew to draft the guys he wanted. Nothing more. I know this because if anything else went down, it would have been obvious to at least Doug Whaley, who has since tried making a career out of bashing the Bills FO, and never misses an opportunity to do so. If McD was in there making picks of guys that werent on Whaley's radar, Doug would have sniffed that something was up right away, and that bombshell would have been revealed by now. I also dont think McD or Beane are dumb enough to have Beane giving info to another team while he was working for the Panthers. If that comes out in any way, and it would have been a huge bombshell, it immediately ends their new jobs and likely their entire careers in the NFL as no team could trust them ever again. The idea that Beane was somehow feeding McD info before he was hired is ludicrous. The obvious thing happened. McD and Whaley worked together and put out a nice draft. Not surprising given Whaley's evaluation skills and McD's vision for the team he wanted to build (and how much better it was than whatever Rex was doing). Quote
PromoTheRobot Posted July 21 Posted July 21 1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said: He didnt draft Milano, that was Whaley's crew. And given his injuries, and therefore lack of consistent contribution the last few seasons, it's tough to label him a home run. Benford and Shakir are nice players, but despite what us homers think, neither are game-changing superstar home runs. Solid triples for sure. Maybe home runs if you consider Josh a grand slam... The only other player close to it, the only other player he's drafted to receive All-Pro honors, has been Taron Johnson. But time may be catching up to Taron. It's hard to debate some one when they discount every success. My bad on Milano. Also, are we comparing apples to apples when talking abut Beane in relation to other NFL GMs? Is his record markedly better? Worse? No GM hits 1.000. In fact I heard Jerry Ostrowsky on Bills Squad say hitting on a third of your draft picks is considered solid. 1 Quote
DrDawkinstein Posted July 21 Posted July 21 Just now, PromoTheRobot said: It's hard to debate some one when they discount every success. My bad on Milano. Also, are we comparing apples to apples when talking abut Beane in relation to other NFL GMs? Is his record markedly better? Worse? No GM hits 1.000. In fact I heard Jerry Ostrowsky on Bills Squad say hitting on a third of your draft picks is considered solid. I think Beane is one of the top GMs in the league. Probably top 3. That isnt the discussion. Nor is anyone (at least not me) saying Beane isnt good or should be replaced or anything like that. Nor am I comparing him to other GMs, since there is no point because he's better than most. We're discussing his past drafts and drafting trends/habits. That little sliver of space between AFC Championship game and Super Bowl. It's a good spot to be in and a good problem to have. Dont think I mean anything else. 1 Quote
DrDawkinstein Posted July 21 Posted July 21 11 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said: For takeways its 11 for Stingley and 9 for Benford. A lot closer than you make it seem. Stingley misses a lot of tackles . Still not sure what you are thinking for home run talent cause Benford is a top 5 CB in my eyes (could be homer eyes but hes def top 10). Wheres the cutoff between solid pick and home run? If Benford aint a home run hes a triple (critque has been Beane gets lot of singles). 10 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: It's hard to debate some one when they discount every success. My bad on Milano. WRT Benford (who I love and agree he's s solid triple), Bills fans keep saying he's a top-10 or even top-5 CB. And I'm sure his is top-5 in our hearts... But if that were true, those top guys always reset the market at their position when their contract is up. Myles Garrett topped the DE market, only to be trumped by Watt a couple months later, and they'll both be topped by Parsons when he finally gets his deal done. This happens at every position. We're all very familiar with how this works. Even if they arent #1, the next guy up gets to be the highest paid when they are in that top group. Benford just signed his big new contract and it made him... the 19th paid CB. In a matter of months he wont even be top-20. Now I know that isnt the biggest factor, and other things play into it all, but it does tell where he fits in. 2 Quote
RoscoeParrish Posted July 21 Posted July 21 31 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: I'd argue that while Beane is a much better Executive at GM overall, Whaley and crew were better scouts/talent evaluators. Whaley got stuck with a carousel of Head Coaches and (especially) Defensive Coordinators always changing schemes, yet always found guys to fit in. Pro personnel I will give Whaley, but not draft. Whaley had an actual gift for identifying league talent. Richie, Lorax, Corey Graham, Zach Brown etc etc. He probably found as many impactful FAs in 3 years as Beane did in like 7. he sucked in the draft because in part, imo, coming from Pittsburgh’s strong football culture, they got a lot of mileage on dudes with questionable character. Those same guys coming to cultureless Buffalo is a lot harder to make work. He is also a crummy exec and is a little bit of a snake. I don’t believe he had no part in how leaky the FO was in that era. 1 Quote
DrDawkinstein Posted July 21 Posted July 21 2 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said: Pro personnel I will give Whaley, but not draft. Whaley had an actual gift for identifying league talent. Richie, Lorax, Corey Graham, Zach Brown etc etc. He probably found as many impactful FAs in 3 years as Beane did in like 7. he sucked in the draft because in part, imo, coming from Pittsburgh’s strong football culture, they got a lot of mileage on dudes with questionable character. Those same guys coming to cultureless Buffalo is a lot harder to make work. He is also a crummy exec and is a little bit of a snake. I don’t believe he had no part in how leaky the FO was in that era. Yeah I cant disagree with any of that. Especially the Exec part and that's why I mentioned it above. I think its very telling that so many current players love Beane and talk about it all the time, whereas so many former players HATE Whaley and spent a lot of time at the Fred Jackson Roast talking mad ***** on him. Fitz, FJ, Wood, Aaron Williams, etc... HATE Whaley. And those are some good dudes too, so that really says something. I do wonder what the team would look like if we could've somehow convinced Whaley to work for Beane. I know it never could have happened, and they might not have even gotten along to work well together. But on talents and specialties alone, it would have been interesting. Quote
YattaOkasan Posted July 21 Posted July 21 4 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: WRT Benford (who I love and agree he's s solid triple), Bills fans keep saying he's a top-10 or even top-5 CB. And I'm sure his is top-5 in our hearts... But if that were true, those top guys always reset the market at their position when their contract is up. Myles Garrett topped the DE market, only to be trumped by Watt a couple months later, and they'll both be topped by Parsons when he finally gets his deal done. This happens at every position. We're all very familiar with how this works. Even if they arent #1, the next guy up gets to be the highest paid when they are in that top group. Benford just signed his big new contract and it made him... the 19th paid CB. In a matter of months he wont even be top-20. Now I know that isnt the biggest factor, and other things play into it all, but it does tell where he fits in. Im fine with not top 5 argument, but he does generally get credit as a top 10 cb. and if thats the difference between a HR and a triple then were pretty close and its fine. I will say the contract is sorta helpful but pretty meh. Is josh worse than Dak cause he got a lower APY (the same or worse than the other 55 mil/yr QBs)? Obviously not. I think Benford is that guy that will take a lower pay day for whatever reason. Im not gonna hold that against him during the evalluation. 1 Quote
billsfan89 Posted July 21 Posted July 21 (edited) 5 hours ago, boater said: I agree. I would grade a 2023 that yielded two starters as a B+ ..not spectacular, but would put the Bills at the 75 percentile of drafting. I think the gold standard of Front Office's is Baltimore. I thought it was all Ozzie Newsome's handiwork, but they continued excellence after he left. It also depends on your draft capital. If you have 7 picks in the top 100 plus 5-6 other picks in later rounds you gotta come up with more than 2 starters. The Bills in 2023 effectively had 4 picks as they traded out of two sixth round selections to go back down deep into round 7 to get additional picks for 2024. The trade downs in 2023 were a smart business move by Beane, underrated job of being a GM is to anticipate needing future selections, as the Bills a very veteran heavy roster going into the 2023 draft they probably figured that was the last go for a lot of vets on that team and they needed to acquire more volume for the 2024 draft as they probably projected the mini-rebuild they would head into. But the Bills getting 2 starters (plug and play out of their rookie years) on offense and possibly a third defensive starter on a draft where you didn't have a ton of picks (6 total and most of the picks slotted towards the back of each round is an A or A- draft. Of course if Kincaid doesn't rebound and Williams never amounts to more than a fringe starter I would put that more around a C but if they can get 3 quality players with limited draft capital that's a big positive. Edited July 22 by billsfan89 1 Quote
SCBills Posted July 21 Posted July 21 (edited) 2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: Benford? Shakir? Milano? Not Elite Not Elite Injured too much in recent years and not Beane Injured too much could go for Benford too, who has missed our biggest game of the year, the past two years Nobody, on any team, comes into a Bills game overly concerned with any of those three Really good players, but not what we’re talking about that Beane needs to hit on once or twice Beane is a Top 5 GM, but we’re competing on razor thin margins against the best or second best GM Edited July 21 by SCBills 1 1 Quote
PrimeTime101 Posted July 21 Posted July 21 Ed Oliver, Cody Ford, Dawson Knox.. 2019 was some good picks there.. Quote
YattaOkasan Posted July 21 Posted July 21 29 minutes ago, SCBills said: Not Elite Not Elite Injured too much in recent years and not Beane Injured too much could go for Benford too, who has missed our biggest game of the year, the past two years Nobody, on any team, comes into a Bills game overly concerned with any of those three Really good players, but not what we’re talking about that Beane needs to hit on once or twice Beane is a Top 5 GM, but we’re competing on razor thin margins against the best or second best GM Sorry again, what is elite? Cause Im still on the Benford is elite train (Brown for that matter too) with both being top 5 at their position. Injuries are a very difficult thing to throw on Beane especially when they havent been chronic injuries known before (youre dinging Beane for a concussion on Benford in year 3!). lastly, if Beane is top 5 what is the argument? If the difference is razor thin then I would say luck has lot to do with whos best or second best (see comment about Benford and concussion. without that bad luck we have a good chance of winning that game). Quote
artmalibu Posted July 21 Posted July 21 The same people who dont like Beans drafts are probably the same guys around here who where yelling that Dion should be moved to guard...... 1 Quote
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