2025 OTAs are underway

[Beck Water]

9 hours ago, Pete said:

McDermott plays rookies, if they win the job.  Benford and Cyrus come to mind.  Keon and Dalton.  It was Marv who didn’t play rookies, 30 years ago

 

Exactly.  Spencer Brown would be another rookie who played.  

 

To play under McDermott, especially on defense, the rookie has to play better than the alternative.  And that isn't just "display more physical talent", that's know the playbook, know their assignment in the playbook, and be able to read and interpret their keys pre and post snap during the stress and sheer physical exertion of an actual game.

 

What people don't seem to take into account when they say "McDermott won't play rookies" (or "Levy didn't play rookies" for that matter) is that since 2019, the Bills have had a top-10 defense (on points) every year but 2020 (when they were dealing with a shitton of of turnovers and the offense was so hot the D may have relaxed a bit) and 2024 (when they were 11th by 4 points with a meaningless Week 18 game).  

 

4 of those 6 years, the D was top-5 on points.
 

In the same period of time, the number of defenders recognized with pro-bowl or all-pro honors can be counted on one hand.  Tre' White and Edmunds (2x).  Poyer (2x).  Milano.  I think that's it.  2 years, it's been "no one".  Wrap your mind around that - a #4 and a #10 offense with zero, zip, zilch, none, no defensive players recognized by people around the league as top-notch.

 

That's because the primary thing for a defender in this defense, is to be assignment-sound and work together.

What does that mean?  We've had some posters here who've pulled back the curtain a bit - @HoofHearted, @Buffalo716, sometimes @Simon (who quietly played ball into middle age), I'm sure I'm missing some.  It's not just the offensive formation and the plays the opposing offense tends to run.  It's being attuned to dozens of little tells pre-snap.  Spacing.  Hand position.  Head position.  Foot position.  And then after the snap, each defender's assignment  changes depending on what routes are actually run and how they are run.  And the defensive players communicate with each other post-snap using body language just as the receivers and QB communicate.

 

I remember a play, against NE I think it was, when Hyde took a horrible angle and a play went for a big gain.  One of the film guys broke down the play and pointed out that Dodson, filling in at LB, had mis-directed Hyde with body language that conveyed to Hyde "take the other gap, I've got this one", except from his body position and leverage, he didn't.  So Hyde started for what should have been the open side and had to put on the brakes and chase the play. 

That's part of what's meant when McDermott says something like "I can't put someone out there the other players don't trust" - it's not just knowing the assignment pre snap then how it changes post snap depending on what the skill players do, it's communicating clearly and correctly with the other defenders through body language and positioning, while not giving away the defensive call with your own pre-snap "tells".

 

7 hours ago, stevewin said:

Regarding the McD rookie/vet playing discussion - one thing he emphasized in one of last week's PCs is not putting someone out there if their "teammates don't trust him".  A reminder that there are things factored in that we as fans don't necessarily know anything about.

 

See above.  I think what McDermott means there is not some intangible film room/locker room rappore kind of trust but a tangible "is he assignment sound pre and post snap?  Does he communicate during the play so the other defenders can react appropriately?  Does he interpret the communication he's getting and react appropriately?"  

 

This is all taking place while these guys are putting out peak physical effort play after play, and it takes a while to become second nature.  And for some players (*cough* Elam *cough*) maybe it never will.

And I think what McDermott means when he says it starts to affect the way the other guys play is, they try to compensate.  If he can't trust what the LB is communicating, the safety will hang back and wait to see which gap the runner takes, leading to a surer tackle, but a bigger gain.  A 'freakazoid' safety could commit and recover and make the play.  Our guys can't.
 

Edited 11 hours ago by Beck Water

[JerseyBills]

Keon and Kincaid are going to make this offense unstoppable 

 

👀

[Beck Water]

17 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah and that mindset is why we once trotted AJ Klein onto the field in the divisional round instead of playing a rookie Dorian Williams. Klein knew the defense better but that doesn't help when your movement skills resemble the Tin Man. There is a part of me that worries the same thing will happen with Tre White and Hairston. Hopefully not though. McDermott said earlier this week the plan is to play a lot of young players on defense and reports from OTAs/minicamp said Hairston was being coached hard and getting better week over week. So I hope that they are expecting him to win the job, and that even if he is still making some mental mistakes McDermott will give him his runway early in the season to acclimate to the NFL and the team will be better for it in January.

 

Brah.....weird choice of example to criticize McDermott's mindset.  AJ Klein was out there playing MLB - the "QB of the defense".  That was Dorian Williams rookie year, when he couldn't figure out his own assignment starting at OLB with Bernard barking in his ear like a seal.

 

Dorian Williams could no more have taken on the MLB role in that game than he could have flapped his arms and flown over the stadium.  It would have been a total CF.

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm responding to this and your earlier comments about the vet playing only if all things are equal. I agree with both comments, but I think it's important to understand what all things being equal means. 

 

In McDermott world, the best players and the guys who get to play are the guys who execute their assignments correctly play after play with very few mistakes. Being better doesn't mean simply being physically better, which is your point about Bishop last season.

 

McDermott's defense depends on everyone executing, because each of the defenders is relying on each of his teammates to be in the right place. 

 

In the case of White, he will be" better" then Hairston if he executes the defense correctly 19 out of 20 times and Hairston executes correctly 9 out of 10 times, even though Hairston may be able to cover more ground than White. This is true because the coaches can adjust assignments for the entire defense to make up for the fact that the cornerback is slow, but there is no way to adjust the defense for random mistakes that leave a player out of position. 

 

So when you say if White and Hairston are equal, White will play because he's a veteran, that means in my mind that Hairston has to learn to play the position as flawlessly mentally as White does for him to be better than White. It doesn't matter to McDermott that Hairston can cover more ground, just like it didn't matter to McDermott that Elam had better physical attributes than some other cornerbacks on the team last year. And that, as you said, is why Bishop didn't see the field a lot last year. 

 

That's why I think Whites chances of starting are better than a lot of people give him credit for. Once White learns how the defense has evolved over the last year, his execution in terms of reading what's going on on the field and making the right decisions will be more or less flawless. That's what made him so valuable to McDermott in the first place. If he's playing and offenses are targeting him deep, than the Bills will adjust safety responsibilities and defensive calls to take care of that exposure. Yes, it weakens the defense to make those adjustments, and you'd rather not do it, but McDermott won't play a more physically able player who makes mistakes in his reads and decision making.

I think Dorian Williams and Milano are another example of the same thing. My view is that Williams is a better player than Milano physically. He's got more speed now, and he attacks the ball better. 

 

However, his decision making in past protection is not as good as Milanos, and his overall execution of the defense is not as good, play after play. So Williams sits behind Milano despite his physical superiority. 

 

Part of what makes McDermott a good coach is that he is very clear to his players about this. Bishop understands today, and he understood last year at this time, that if he wants to play he needs to fit into the team concept of the defense more or less flawlessly. Understand what's happening and make the right decisions quickly or you don't play.

 

This is well and clearly put.  To repeat something I posted elsewhere in support: McDermott's defense is built to depend upon players who understand their role on each play and execute flawlessly rather than physically superior stars.  It breaks down when we have a player who ad-libs outside his role. 

Example:  Jordan Phillips in 2019.  As a 3T on the Bills #2 ranked D, he had a career year with 9.5 sacks.  But that same D was 18th in the league for rush Y/A and one reason for that was Phillips being a bit too quick to head for the QB, rather than maintaining gap integrity against the run.

The dependence on everyone on defense knowing and doing their job is how the Bills manage years like 2023 where the Bills D was #4 for points given up without a single defender who received all-pro or pro bowl honors.  In contrast, the Ravens #1 defense had 2 1st team all pro honors and 4 pro bowlers.  The #2 Chiefs had 2 1st team all pro and a pro bowler.  And the #3 49ers had a 1st team all pro and 4 pro bowlers.  #5 Cowboys, a 1st team all pro and 3 pro-bowlers.  #6 Steelers a 1st team all pro and 2 pro bowlers.

 

One can argue about the significance of pro bowls or the voting process, but in the bottom line they both recognize what Emmanuel Acho (I think) called "freakazoids", players who have athletic abilities that let them make game changing plays most players at their position simply couldn't.  The Bills D manages to be solid (most of the time) without freakazoids, because guys know and do their job. 

And when it's "next man up" with guys who don't know their roles and execute near flawlessly, we get badly gashed.  Example: 2024 reg season Ravens game featuring Baylon Spector at MLB, Dorian Williams at OLB, and Cam Lewis at Nickle and then Rapp went out and Cole Bishop came in for him.  471 yds, 271 on the ground, no interceptions, 1 sack for 1 yd.  Ugly all around.

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea. Dorian wouldn't see it if you ran it 5 times straight. If he can play run and hit football he is a playmaker. If you make him think after the snap he is screwed.

This is make or break year.  Pretty much like Elam.

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Yea. Dorian wouldn't see it if you ran it 5 times straight. If he can play run and hit football he is a playmaker. If you make him think after the snap he is screwed.

 

That was true his rookie year 2023 which is why we saw Dodson out there for Milano and AJ Klein (not Williams) for Bernard in the playoffs.

 

I think it's less true now.  I don't think the Bills win 9 of 11 games which Williams started in place of Milano if he hadn't improved substantially in his play recognition and his understanding of his role in the play.

 

But yes, he does need to take another step mentally which is why we saw Milano as soon as he could take the field.

[3rdand12]

26 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

That was true his rookie year 2023 which is why we saw Dodson out there for Milano and AJ Klein (not Williams) for Bernard in the playoffs.

 

I think it's less true now.  I don't think the Bills win 9 of 11 games which Williams started in place of Milano if he hadn't improved substantially in his play recognition and his understanding of his role in the play.

 

But yes, he does need to take another step mentally which is why we saw Milano as soon as he could take the field.

Well they brought in an Old McD coached LB more recently. That's a tell.

 I suggest he has more athletic ability , but feels like the same concept.

Are we mentally weak after Milano still at LB ?

 

 As Shaw mentions Dorian is still not there based upon last years gameplay.

 

BTW

 

Excellent reading today from all of the above. All opinions worthwhile

 Thanks folks , for learnin' me a bit more !

And pointing to perspectives about McDermott's thought process that I do agree with.

 

and so after all that 🙂

 We have semi opposed opinions here as to whether live reps for a Rookie still learning are better than him learning from the vets watching tape and mentoring the details.  I am quite sure McD picks teachers for veteran leadership more when pulling from FA. Miller actually fit that Bill I thought , regardless of contract.

Dane and Tre are fine recent examples as to this.

 

[Cash]

13 hours ago, stevewin said:

Regarding the McD rookie/vet playing discussion - one thing he emphasized in one of last week's PCs is not putting someone out there if their "teammates don't trust him".  A reminder that there are things factored in that we as fans don't necessarily know anything about.

Great point. It’s easy for us fans to just say “play the young guy, he’ll get better”, but if his teammates don’t trust him, that’s causing extra problems beyond just one rookie making mistakes. 
 

In a similar vein, there is a case for a Tre White or similar to make the roster as a backup over a better-below-the-neck young guy. Because we know Tre is a phenomenal locker room guy, and he came in with no expectations of starting. 

[Doc]

If Tre doesn't have it, they could cut him and put him on the PS as a mentor, a la Micah Hyde last year.  He'd still get $2.2M plus PS salary and a game check from call-ups.

[Shaw66]

5 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

 

 As Shaw mentions Dorian is still not there based upon last years gameplay.

 

 

Actually, it was Gunner.

[SoonerBillsFan]

9 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Exactly.  Spencer Brown would be another rookie who played.  

 

To play under McDermott, especially on defense, the rookie has to play better than the alternative.  And that isn't just "display more physical talent", that's know the playbook, know their assignment in the playbook, and be able to read and interpret their keys pre and post snap during the stress and sheer physical exertion of an actual game.

 

What people don't seem to take into account when they say "McDermott won't play rookies" (or "Levy didn't play rookies" for that matter) is that since 2019, the Bills have had a top-10 defense (on points) every year but 2020 (when they were dealing with a shitton of of turnovers and the offense was so hot the D may have relaxed a bit) and 2024 (when they were 11th by 4 points with a meaningless Week 18 game).  

 

4 of those 6 years, the D was top-5 on points.
 

In the same period of time, the number of defenders recognized with pro-bowl or all-pro honors can be counted on one hand.  Tre' White and Edmunds (2x).  Poyer (2x).  Milano.  I think that's it.  2 years, it's been "no one".  Wrap your mind around that - a #4 and a #10 offense with zero, zip, zilch, none, no defensive players recognized by people around the league as top-notch.

 

That's because the primary thing for a defender in this defense, is to be assignment-sound and work together.

What does that mean?  We've had some posters here who've pulled back the curtain a bit - @HoofHearted, @Buffalo716, sometimes @Simon (who quietly played ball into middle age), I'm sure I'm missing some.  It's not just the offensive formation and the plays the opposing offense tends to run.  It's being attuned to dozens of little tells pre-snap.  Spacing.  Hand position.  Head position.  Foot position.  And then after the snap, each defender's assignment  changes depending on what routes are actually run and how they are run.  And the defensive players communicate with each other post-snap using body language just as the receivers and QB communicate.

 

I remember a play, against NE I think it was, when Hyde took a horrible angle and a play went for a big gain.  One of the film guys broke down the play and pointed out that Dodson, filling in at LB, had mis-directed Hyde with body language that conveyed to Hyde "take the other gap, I've got this one", except from his body position and leverage, he didn't.  So Hyde started for what should have been the open side and had to put on the brakes and chase the play. 

That's part of what's meant when McDermott says something like "I can't put someone out there the other players don't trust" - it's not just knowing the assignment pre snap then how it changes post snap depending on what the skill players do, it's communicating clearly and correctly with the other defenders through body language and positioning, while not giving away the defensive call with your own pre-snap "tells".

 

 

See above.  I think what McDermott means there is not some intangible film room/locker room rappore kind of trust but a tangible "is he assignment sound pre and post snap?  Does he communicate during the play so the other defenders can react appropriately?  Does he interpret the communication he's getting and react appropriately?"  

 

This is all taking place while these guys are putting out peak physical effort play after play, and it takes a while to become second nature.  And for some players (*cough* Elam *cough*) maybe it never will.

And I think what McDermott means when he says it starts to affect the way the other guys play is, they try to compensate.  If he can't trust what the LB is communicating, the safety will hang back and wait to see which gap the runner takes, leading to a surer tackle, but a bigger gain.  A 'freakazoid' safety could commit and recover and make the play.  Our guys can't.
 

+1 for the use of "Freakazoid"

[Buffalo716]

12 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Exactly.  Spencer Brown would be another rookie who played.  

 

To play under McDermott, especially on defense, the rookie has to play better than the alternative.  And that isn't just "display more physical talent", that's know the playbook, know their assignment in the playbook, and be able to read and interpret their keys pre and post snap during the stress and sheer physical exertion of an actual game.

 

What people don't seem to take into account when they say "McDermott won't play rookies" (or "Levy didn't play rookies" for that matter) is that since 2019, the Bills have had a top-10 defense (on points) every year but 2020 (when they were dealing with a shitton of of turnovers and the offense was so hot the D may have relaxed a bit) and 2024 (when they were 11th by 4 points with a meaningless Week 18 game).  

 

4 of those 6 years, the D was top-5 on points.
 

In the same period of time, the number of defenders recognized with pro-bowl or all-pro honors can be counted on one hand.  Tre' White and Edmunds (2x).  Poyer (2x).  Milano.  I think that's it.  2 years, it's been "no one".  Wrap your mind around that - a #4 and a #10 offense with zero, zip, zilch, none, no defensive players recognized by people around the league as top-notch.

 

That's because the primary thing for a defender in this defense, is to be assignment-sound and work together.

What does that mean?  We've had some posters here who've pulled back the curtain a bit - @HoofHearted, @Buffalo716, sometimes @Simon (who quietly played ball into middle age), I'm sure I'm missing some.  It's not just the offensive formation and the plays the opposing offense tends to run.  It's being attuned to dozens of little tells pre-snap.  Spacing.  Hand position.  Head position.  Foot position.  And then after the snap, each defender's assignment  changes depending on what routes are actually run and how they are run.  And the defensive players communicate with each other post-snap using body language just as the receivers and QB communicate.

 

I remember a play, against NE I think it was, when Hyde took a horrible angle and a play went for a big gain.  One of the film guys broke down the play and pointed out that Dodson, filling in at LB, had mis-directed Hyde with body language that conveyed to Hyde "take the other gap, I've got this one", except from his body position and leverage, he didn't.  So Hyde started for what should have been the open side and had to put on the brakes and chase the play. 

That's part of what's meant when McDermott says something like "I can't put someone out there the other players don't trust" - it's not just knowing the assignment pre snap then how it changes post snap depending on what the skill players do, it's communicating clearly and correctly with the other defenders through body language and positioning, while not giving away the defensive call with your own pre-snap "tells".

 

 

See above.  I think what McDermott means there is not some intangible film room/locker room rappore kind of trust but a tangible "is he assignment sound pre and post snap?  Does he communicate during the play so the other defenders can react appropriately?  Does he interpret the communication he's getting and react appropriately?"  

 

This is all taking place while these guys are putting out peak physical effort play after play, and it takes a while to become second nature.  And for some players (*cough* Elam *cough*) maybe it never will.

And I think what McDermott means when he says it starts to affect the way the other guys play is, they try to compensate.  If he can't trust what the LB is communicating, the safety will hang back and wait to see which gap the runner takes, leading to a surer tackle, but a bigger gain.  A 'freakazoid' safety could commit and recover and make the play.  Our guys can't.
 

You basically hit the nail on the head beck

 

To gain McDermott's trust it's not about your actual physical skill on the football field.. his defense, like Bill belichick requires football players have it above the shoulders 

 

His combination his zone match system is not TaylorMade for non-heady football players 

 

If Sean has 35 rules that dictate your responsibility .. you can't half ass it and get by only being sound in 20 of them... You're going to leave a lot of your own players out to dry 

 

His linebackers he gives more freedom to and they actually are slightly more read and attack which is why I actually am pretty high on Dorian Williams and I would try to resign him 

 

He hits like a hammer and I think his arrow is squarely up 

 

The defensive back side is even more mental.. both of our All pro safeties with poyer and hyde were not off the charts athletically top tier for the NFL... They had enough athleticism.. but it was what they had upstairs that made them special and Sean's system where he could keep them interchangeable 

 

Same thing with Tre White.. his mental gifts were as good as his 20-yard burst.. his ability to see plays before they happened was as good as any athletic trait 

 

Which is why I like hairston a lot a lot 

 

If he stays healthy he has all the traits to be world-class in Sean's system

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Buffalo716

[Richard Noggin]

11 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Brah.....weird choice of example to criticize McDermott's mindset.  AJ Klein was out there playing MLB - the "QB of the defense".  That was Dorian Williams rookie year, when he couldn't figure out his own assignment starting at OLB with Bernard barking in his ear like a seal.

 

Dorian Williams could no more have taken on the MLB role in that game than he could have flapped his arms and flown over the stadium.  It would have been a total CF.

 

I've never criticized giving Klein the start/snaps in that game, but I will always criticize the gameplan that had Klein trying to cover Kelce 1:1 in several high leverage down and distances. Part of the failure could be placed on the DL for not speeding up/disrupting the offense, but expecting a semi-retired AJ Klein to man-up a HOF TE is begging for repeated exploitation. 

 

2 hours ago, Cash said:

Great point. It’s easy for us fans to just say “play the young guy, he’ll get better”, but if his teammates don’t trust him, that’s causing extra problems beyond just one rookie making mistakes. 
 

In a similar vein, there is a case for a Tre White or similar to make the roster as a backup over a better-below-the-neck young guy. Because we know Tre is a phenomenal locker room guy, and he came in with no expectations of starting. 

 

If Tre White makes the 53 to be a one year player/coach/mentor and the Bills lose a promising Dorian Strong, for example, as a result, by failing to sneak him onto the PS, then that's poor, short-sighted roster mismanagement. Tre, as others have noted, should be a PS handshake (IF he shows consistent limitations in camp). They could guarantee him a couple call-ups and some likely-to-hit escalators perhaps? However, might be a bunch of dead cap involved in cutting him? (2.2M guaranteed, so...)

 

Best case is clearly Tre enjoying a comeback season that sees him make the roster and provide valuable depth and subpackage snaps throughout the season while Hairston, Hancock, and Strong also flash when tested. (Hancock might not be relevant to this specific convo.)

 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Richard Noggin said:

I've never criticized giving Klein the start/snaps in that game, but I will always criticize the gameplan that had Klein trying to cover Kelce 1:1 in several high leverage down and distances. Part of the failure could be placed on the DL for not speeding up/disrupting the offense, but expecting a semi-retired AJ Klein to man-up a HOF TE is begging for repeated exploitation. 

 

I can't comment on the specific plays you have in mind.  But I don't think it's quite that simple.

 

Part of what makes the offense of a top-tier team with a top-tier coach so difficult to defend, right, is that the top-tier coaches will do a careful dissection of how a defense like McDermott's will handle defensive assignments in certain plays.  Then they'll tweak plays to force the coverage to be what they want.   You don't want your MLB covering Kelce?  Too bad so sad, we're going to exploit your coverage rules so that's where you end up.

 

Every team does this, of course, but someone like Reid is a master at it, and he goes harder during the playoffs.

And of course, the Bills are aware of this, and will normally have some wrinkles of their own to counter it.  But that requires two things: players who have the mentality to master changes to the playbook on a short week, and players who have the physical capacity to execute.

 

Hold that thought.  It's now the division round, and the Bills are playing KC on a short week after a Monday late WC game. 

You're Sean McDermott.  You've been missing your starting OLB most of the season.  His replacement, who's been doing OK, is playing with one arm and a shoulder brace.  Your starting MLB is out, his backup is out, and the guy who knows the scheme well enough to direct the traffic is 32 and just got off the sofa a week ago.  But that's not all.  One of your starting corners is out. The other didn't play the previous week nursing a knee injury and it's unclear he'll make it through the game.

So you have a judgement call to make.  Do you try to empty the playbook and throw every wrinkle you can craft back at Reid?  Or do you look at the Jimmies and Joes who will be available next Sunday and say "let's stay with what we know these guys can execute and just try to be assignment sound and limit the damage"?

The thing is, we almost pulled it off.  I know "almost" only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades, and tactical nukes.  But we were a bonkers fake punt attempt and a missed FG away from doing the thing, mishaps in coverage and all.  And it's not like Kelce ran rampant over us, he had one fewer reception and fewer yards than he did during our regular season win.  He had 6 more receptions and gained 41 more yards against Baltimore the next week.

 

PS I think Tre White will do a Micah Hyde and wind up on the practice squad.  He's already got his guaranteed money and he keeps it if he's cut.  That's just my opinion.

Edited 49 minutes ago by Beck Water