Keon Coleman success by route - Not pretty

[Mikie2times]

36 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah to me, one of the things most Bills fans seem to misunderstand about Shakir is he is NOT an instinctive, reliable route runner like Beasley was.   If he were,  Allen would be feeding him non-stop.   He doesn't have complete faith in Shakir that way and you can't throw the ball over the middle to a small target if you don't have complete faith that you will be on the same page. 

 

When Diggs and Davis were outside in 2023 it wasn't exactly Air Coryell but defense's couldn't just focus on one area of the field and were often doubling Diggs and putting CB1 on Davis.   That left some huge holes in the middle of the field for Shakir back in 2023.   It created this misconception that he was one of those "always open" types.  

 

Defense's are squatting in those areas where he was thriving back then.  So they are forced to throw a lot of really short passes to get the ball in his hands so they can get that high end RAC out of him.   

I want to give you a thumbs down for fun, but couldn't agree more. Shakir is elite, but it's a very niche elite YAC skill set, perfect for screens. He's fairly pedestrian downfield or even getting open in the short and intermediary routes. Beasley was basically automatic over the middle of the field within 10 yards on those slants and in routes. He could always get open. The two players couldn't be any more different.  

[Captain_Quint]

6 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

 

update?

He's still stretching out and warming up. Get ready for the windmill dunks this week. 

[BullBuchanan]

7 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

 

You wouldn't trade Franklin for Coleman straight up?

Probably not. Franklin was useless last season, and while he's had a slightly better start to the season, most of his production is in 2 games. He hasn't done anything to rise from a 4th round pick to a high 2nd round pick caliber so far. He has two modetsly ok games in his entire career so far, neither above 100 yards. Coleman by contrast has 2 games over 100 yards.

I guess I don't see Coleman's limited production as a problem. It looks to me like they're using him how they want to use him. His job is to catch 0-3 important balls a game. I also kind of think that's the way they want to use Josh. Hand the ball off, take the dinks and dunks, and make the big 3rd/4th down play when we need it. The rest of the time, play safe, and hit the open underneath guy.

I don't think it's a bad plan, either.

[Mikie2times]

40 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Probably not. Franklin was useless last season, and while he's had a slightly better start to the season, most of his production is in 2 games. He hasn't done anything to rise from a 4th round pick to a high 2nd round pick caliber so far. He has two modetsly ok games in his entire career so far, neither above 100 yards. Coleman by contrast has 2 games over 100 yards.

I guess I don't see Coleman's limited production as a problem. It looks to me like they're using him how they want to use him. His job is to catch 0-3 important balls a game. I also kind of think that's the way they want to use Josh. Hand the ball off, take the dinks and dunks, and make the big 3rd/4th down play when we need it. The rest of the time, play safe, and hit the open underneath guy.

I don't think it's a bad plan, either.

This is a really silly position to dig in on. On one hand you minimize Franklin for having all his production in two games, on the other Coleman has 19 catches 155 yards in the last 6 games. The only reason Coleman has done more statistically in his career is the Bills gave him the spot last year based on his draft position. Franklin has had to earn it. You're trusting Beane's grade at this point, which is fine, but it's not exactly a short list as far as WR's who get drafted early and become nothing nor is Beane shown to be some WR whisperer.

 

Franklins ability to stretch the field is clearly superior and his numbers when factoring in the target share of both offenses are more impressive. Denver actually has some mouths to feed. Coleman should be eating like crazy. What else is crazy is assuming Buffalo is basically using him as a decoy. Nobody cares about Coleman, he can't be a decoy. He's wearing DB's like a Macy's jacket when he's out there.  Teams care about a WR with sub 4.4 speed who is 6"3 and can take the top off. Maybe you don't care but I guarantee you McD does after the playoff game last year. 

Edited 14 hours ago by Mikie2times

[BullBuchanan]

2 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

This is a really silly position to dig in on. On one hand you minimize Franklin for having all his production in two games, on the other Coleman has 19 catches 155 yards in the last 6 games. The only reason Coleman has done more statistically in his career is the Bills gave him the spot last year based on his draft position. Franklin has had to earn it. You're trusting Beane's grade at this point, which is fine, but it's not exactly a short list as far as WR's who get drafted early and become nothing nor is Beane shown to be some WR whisperer.

 

Franklins ability to stretch the field is clearly superior and his numbers when factoring in the target share of both offenses are more impressive. Denver actually has some mouths to feed. Coleman should be eating like crazy. What else is crazy is assuming Buffalo is basically using him as a decoy. Nobody cares about Coleman, he can't be a decoy. He's wearing DB's like a Macy's jacket when he's out there.  Teams care about a WR with sub 4.4 speed who is 6"3 and can take the top off. Maybe you don't care but I guarantee you McD does after the playoff game last year. 

Who said I'm digging in? You're the one making this a big deal like there was some gross miss on Franklin. Coleman is a part of the puzzle, nothing more. I don't believe for a second he was drafted to be a traditional #1. He was brought in to be the big bodied red zone threat the bills have been coveting for nearly 30 years.

Coleman is the guy they drafted to fill that need, and whether or not he's doing it to the level they expect, we can argue about that. Franklin would not be that guy for us, and he'd probably be the 5th WR on the team if he were here. When i say I wouldn't trade for him, it's because he doesn't fill a need we have, he creates a hole, and as a pure talent, there's not much evidence he's any better than Coleman thus far.

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

Who said I'm digging in? You're the one making this a big deal like there was some gross miss on Franklin. Coleman is a part of the puzzle, nothing more. I don't believe for a second he was drafted to be a traditional #1. He was brought in to be the big bodied red zone threat the bills have been coveting for nearly 30 years.

Coleman is the guy they drafted to fill that need, and whether or not he's doing it to the level they expect, we can argue about that. Franklin would not be that guy for us, and he'd probably be the 5th WR on the team if he were here. When i say I wouldn't trade for him, it's because he doesn't fill a need we have, he creates a hole, and as a pure talent, there's not much evidence he's any better than Coleman thus far.

The post you responded to was about being perturbed we didn't draft him in the 4th round. You wanted to focus more on Coleman vs Franklin, which to me is an easy conversation. He's the #2 WR for Denver, a burner that can stretch the field. That isn't what we need? Instead we need a big slot when we have 3 other natural slot WR's? It was a dumb pick. I even liked Coleman at the time, but I'm not paid millions of dollars to draft players. Even with how dumb I am, I would have spent the 4th round pick on Franklin as most couch QB's on this site were begging for. Turned out they were all largely right and our GM was wrong.  

Edited 10 hours ago by Mikie2times

[Big Blitz]

Wtf

 

 

 

[BullBuchanan]

11 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

The post you responded to was about being perturbed we didn't draft him in the 4th round. You wanted to focus more on Coleman vs Franklin, which to me is an easy conversation. He's the #2 WR for Denver, a burner that can stretch the field. That isn't what we need? Instead we need a big slot when we have 3 other natural slot WR's? It was a dumb pick. I even liked Coleman at the time, but I'm not paid millions of dollars to draft players. Even with how dumb I am, I would have spent the 4th round pick on Franklin as most couch QB's on this site were begging for. Turned out they were all largely right and our GM was wrong.  

No, it's not what we need according to Beane and McDermott. We haven't tried to fill that type of role with any meaningful attempts at any point in their tenure here. You could argue John Brown had that skillset, but it's not really how we used him. The only people clamoring for that type of receiver are the armchair GMs here.
 

[Mikie2times]

4 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

No, it's not what we need according to Beane and McDermott. We haven't tried to fill that type of role with any meaningful attempts at any point in their tenure here. You could argue John Brown had that skillset, but it's not really how we used him. The only people clamoring for that type of receiver are the armchair GMs here.
 

Seems like the arm chair QB’s had a step on the mastermind 

[Big Blitz]

18 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

Wtf

 

 

 

 

He must be responding to this

 

 

[BullBuchanan]

6 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Seems like the arm chair QB’s had a step on the mastermind 

If you say so. Literally could not be less impressed by him so far. He's been a complete JAG so far. Maybe someday he'll average more than 4 catches a game or have 100 yards, but it sure isn't now.

[Einstein]

It is so frustrating that we knew this the night that he was drafted.

 

 

[LEBills]

4 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

This is a really silly position to dig in on. On one hand you minimize Franklin for having all his production in two games, on the other Coleman has 19 catches 155 yards in the last 6 games. The only reason Coleman has done more statistically in his career is the Bills gave him the spot last year based on his draft position. Franklin has had to earn it. You're trusting Beane's grade at this point, which is fine, but it's not exactly a short list as far as WR's who get drafted early and become nothing nor is Beane shown to be some WR whisperer.

 

Franklins ability to stretch the field is clearly superior and his numbers when factoring in the target share of both offenses are more impressive. Denver actually has some mouths to feed. Coleman should be eating like crazy. What else is crazy is assuming Buffalo is basically using him as a decoy. Nobody cares about Coleman, he can't be a decoy. He's wearing DB's like a Macy's jacket when he's out there.  Teams care about a WR with sub 4.4 speed who is 6"3 and can take the top off. Maybe you don't care but I guarantee you McD does after the playoff game last year. 

You may not find a bigger pre-draft and current fan of Franklin than me. But the other poster is right that Keon as a whole has been better over the past two years. Yards per route run, first downs per route run, etc.

 

Franklin has improved a lot from 2024 to this year, but that has coincided with him getting much more snaps out of the slot which is what basically everyone says the Bills need to try with Keon. Now unlike Keon, Franklin was instantaneously a great separator and I think he will continue to improve. If he can get his hands more consistent, he will be a good WR.

 

I think Keon will be ok in the league. In the role he has been pigeonholed into and his current strengths as a receiver, it will lead to him being a very inconsistent player over the course of the season

[Mikie2times]

57 minutes ago, LEBills said:

You may not find a bigger pre-draft and current fan of Franklin than me. But the other poster is right that Keon as a whole has been better over the past two years. Yards per route run, first downs per route run, etc.

 

Franklin has improved a lot from 2024 to this year, but that has coincided with him getting much more snaps out of the slot which is what basically everyone says the Bills need to try with Keon. Now unlike Keon, Franklin was instantaneously a great separator and I think he will continue to improve. If he can get his hands more consistent, he will be a good WR.

 

I think Keon will be ok in the league. In the role he has been pigeonholed into and his current strengths as a receiver, it will lead to him being a very inconsistent player over the course of the season

I mean, I don’t disagree that Coleman is being misused, but how incompetent does our GM need to be to draft a guy who can only be successful playing slot when you have a TE, and at least 3 other positions where that is the primary role? If your argument is until Keon becomes a slot he just can’t be evaluated, I just can’t get on board with that because it will never happen here. I can only evaluate what is actually happening and what is likely to keep happening and in that, Franklin is the better performer with a more desirable

skill set. 

Edited 8 hours ago by Mikie2times

[LEBills]

2 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

I mean, I don’t disagree that Coleman is being misused, but how incompetent does our GM need to be to draft a guy who can only be successful playing slot when you have a TE, and at least 3 other positions where that is the primary role? If your argument is until Keon becomes a slot he just can’t be evaluated, I just can’t get on board with that because it will never happen here. I can only evaluate what is actually happening and what is likely to keep happening and in that, Franklin is the better performer with a more desirable

skill set. 

Beane’s drafts are bad, and the way he uses free agency to paper over his mistakes has held us back for too long. I have been done with Beane for years. But he isn’t the only one like this, Jayden Higgins was pick 34 in this years draft and is another player that likely need to work out of the slot to succeed per Matt Harmon. Despite having Christian Kirk they drafted him and then drafted Jaylin Noel - his teammate that was primarily a slot player in college - the round after him. 

 

my argument is that Keon is going to be a very inconsistent player how they are using him - which we have seen. A lot of players are this way in the league, one good week followed by a multitude without much accolades. DJ Chark (another early 2nd rounder) is who I always think about for Coleman. A guy whose career YPC was 14.4 (Coleman’s is 14.7 right now) and had five 100 yard games in 5 seasons where he played most the games. Keons role and skill set are setting him up to be that type of feast or famine player. 
 

Franklin is trending towards being a more consistent player but some if that is due to how he is being used. I wish we had drafted him. He should have been the pick instead of Dwayne Carter 

[Sojourner]

14 minutes ago, LEBills said:

Beane’s drafts are bad, and the way he uses free agency to paper over his mistakes has held us back for too long. I have been done with Beane for years. But he isn’t the only one like this, Jayden Higgins was pick 34 in this years draft and is another player that likely need to work out of the slot to succeed per Matt Harmon. Despite having Christian Kirk they drafted him and then drafted Jaylin Noel - his teammate that was primarily a slot player in college - the round after him. 

 

my argument is that Keon is going to be a very inconsistent player how they are using him - which we have seen. A lot of players are this way in the league, one good week followed by a multitude without much accolades. DJ Chark (another early 2nd rounder) is who I always think about for Coleman. A guy whose career YPC was 14.4 (Coleman’s is 14.7 right now) and had five 100 yard games in 5 seasons where he played most the games. Keons role and skill set are setting him up to be that type of feast or famine player. 
 

Franklin is trending towards being a more consistent player but some if that is due to how he is being used. I wish we had drafted him. He should have been the pick instead of Dwayne Carter 

The drafting isn’t bad. If you look at the 8 drafts only 3 have been poor: 2020, 2021 and 2022. 
 

The FA signings have been poorer than the drafting, at least to me. 
 

Out of the 5 decent drafts a lot of them have shown to be adequate players in the league. 

Sure Josh is the main reason for success but it’s a team sport. You don’t stumble into 10+ wins without some talent across the board. 

It’s easy to focus on the 30% of duds. Even more so when they’re early picks. It’s is a problem but drafting as a whole hasn’t set the franchise and team as far back as you’re envisioning in my opinion. 

[HOUSE]

4.61

[LEBills]

3 hours ago, Sojourner said:

The drafting isn’t bad. If you look at the 8 drafts only 3 have been poor: 2020, 2021 and 2022. 
 

The FA signings have been poorer than the drafting, at least to me. 
 

Out of the 5 decent drafts a lot of them have shown to be adequate players in the league. 

Sure Josh is the main reason for success but it’s a team sport. You don’t stumble into 10+ wins without some talent across the board. 

It’s easy to focus on the 30% of duds. Even more so when they’re early picks. It’s is a problem but drafting as a whole hasn’t set the franchise and team as far back as you’re envisioning in my opinion. 

Im not going to derail the topic by veering off into a Beane discussion. I believe the totality of how he has put together this team, from drafting to free agency leaves a lot to be desired.

 

My point in these posts is that Keon hasn’t been terrible. He may not reach his fullest potential because of the role he is filling. For example the Steve Smith quote is getting passed around about not getting off jams - then don’t have him on the line so much having to beat press if he isn’t ready for it? But he kinda has to because we don’t have anyone else.

[Mikey152]

Man,

 

After reading this thread (and board as a whole, these days) I think some of you might need to take a break from football.

 

We are talking about a team that just won 40-9, is 5-2, has won their division several years in a row, set a franchise scoring record last season, and has the best point differential in the league by a wide margin over the last 5 years. On this board, however, all I see whenever I log in is the GM sucks, the coach sucks, the WRs suck, the defense sucks, the OC sucks...

 

The RB is pretty good and the QB is a god but he is sad because he got married and his team sucks.

 

Take a step back for a second...it's all insane.

 

 

[PayDaBill$]

I’m hoping all the Coleman chatter lights a fire under his a$$ and we get a breakout game.