Keon Coleman success by route - Not pretty

[appoo]

How many “elite” players are in the league? 25? 
 

Why is there an expectation that the bills have more than 1? Like the chiefs and eagles may have 2? 

[Maine-iac]

17 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

And some fans give up on young players and declare "sometimes they are what they are" too quickly...

 

Keon Coleman just turned 22 years old and is entering Year 2. Like many Rookies, it was a mixed bag. Some good, some bad. He was showing improvement before that brutal hit from Jordan Poyer derailed things.

 

Was he the guy I wanted from the Draft or the guy most of us wanted? No. But the league is filled with players, even here in Buffalo, that took 2-3 years of development before they showed who "they are". Am I sure he's going to be great? No. But i'm definitely not ready to say he's a bust after one season.

Funny they use a Steve Smith video ........... I'm trying to remember Smith's rookie season ..... LOL.

[SoonerBillsFan]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

He needs to play like he did before his injury.  With some improvement.  
 

Can you expand on your second paragraph statement?  Names for example?  Or how many 20-22 year olds that Beane drafted that struggled?

How many 1st or 2nd round picks has he drafted that came in and were impact players as rookies?  

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, appoo said:

How many “elite” players are in the league? 25? 
 

Why is there an expectation that the bills have more than 1? Like the chiefs and eagles may have 2? 

 

The Chiefs currently have 3 - Mahomes, McDuffie and Jones. I don't think Kelce is anymore but at his peak may have been the greatest TE of all time.

 

The Eagles currently have 4 - AJ Brown, Barkley, Mailata and Carter. And both Quinyon Mitchell and Cooper DeJean will be in that category if they back up their rookie year in 2025.

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

 

Can you expand on your second paragraph statement?  Names for example?  Or how many 20-22 year olds that Beane drafted that struggled?

 

That struggled as rookies? Elam. Epenesa. Basham. Bishop. Cody Ford. Shakir.

 

I don't put Keon in that category. Keon was okay pre-injury. He wasn't an impact player but struggled is harsh. 

 

Of the guys that did 'struggle' AJE and Shakir turned it around. The jury is out on Bishop. The others not so much.

 

 

 

[SoonerBillsFan]

16 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

Funny they use a Steve Smith video ........... I'm trying to remember Smith's rookie season ..... LOL.

So you are saying Steve Smith is wrong because of his rookie season, not all of his experience?  

[oldmanfan]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

That struggled as rookies? Elam. Epenesa. Basham. Bishop. Cody Ford. Shakir.

 

I don't put Keon in that category. Keon was okay pre-injury. He wasn't an impact player but struggled is harsh. 

 

Of the guys that did 'struggle' AJE and Shakir turned it around. The jury is out on Bishop. The others not so much.

 

 

 

And he drafted guys like Taron, Groot, Brown, Benford, Bernard, Oliver that have made impacts.  The problem with this chat room in general is twofold:

 

1.  Impatience.  Some expect a player has to be great year 1, and improve from there. 
 

2.  Black and white.  Some believe you either have to be an All Pro to have “impact”, or you’re a bum.  No in between.  We have a solid roster of players that are doing a good job, otherwise they would not have the records they’ve had the past several seasons.  
 

 

[Maine-iac]

6 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

So you are saying Steve Smith is wrong because of his rookie season, not all of his experience?  

Certainly not saying he is wrong.  Just that anyone would make a judgement based off 1 season.  Smith may well be right but I think even Smith would admit you can't write the whole book based off 1 season.  Smith used downfield statistics that painted a bad picture but failed to say that the throws have as much to do with production as the pass catcher.  He did mention 10 to 19 yard throw production but said little about it even though Coleman did very well in that category.  Overall I think there's nothing "wrong" with Smith's critique but question both the expectations of people and Smith and in Smith's case it's funny to hear him semi call someone out after 1 season given his own rookie season.  I don't (and never did)  expect Coleman to be a 100 catch or 1,500 yard guy.  I don't think that's what he was drafted to do.  I don't think that's what our front office or coaching staff was looking for.  He will however be criticized because he's not that.

[Paup 1995MVP]

1 hour ago, Gunsgoodtime said:

Bills homerism, probably the same with other fan bases.  I asked what elite player has Beane drafted outside of Josh Allen and was hit with disagrees and lists of current Bills players who are average to slightly above average.  I dont own a pair of those rose colored glasses they do lol

Benford has the potential to be elite.  Although I don’t think his athleticism is quite at that level.  
 

I am real excited to watch Hairston play.  He has elite speed.  And that’s a great attribute to start your NFL career with.  
 

I actually thought that Kincaid could be elite coming out of Utah.  But I may have been overly optimistic after watching him shred the USC defense in the 2022 PAC 12 championship. ( But that was a terrible defensive team.)

 

At this point I would be happy if Kincaid turns into a good TE. A Todd Heap type (used to play for the Ravens in the earlier 2000’s.)

 

As for Coleman he didn’t show a whole lot over the course of last season.  Let’s hope for a big jump this coming year.  

[Pete]

36 minutes ago, appoo said:

How many “elite” players are in the league? 25? 
 

Why is there an expectation that the bills have more than 1? Like the chiefs and eagles may have 2? 

Chiefs elite-Mahomes, Chris Smith, Kelce, McDuffie are elite

 

Eagles-Saquan, Jalen Carter, AJ Brown, Lane Johnson are elite. Zack Baun, Landon Dickerson, and Cam Jurgens were also named to the Pro Bowl in 2024.  

 

Josh Allen is elite.  Benford.  Maybe Dion.   Both the Chiefs and Eagles have superior top end talent

[GunnerBill]

30 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

And he drafted guys like Taron, Groot, Brown, Benford, Bernard, Oliver that have made impacts.  The problem with this chat room in general is twofold:

 

1.  Impatience.  Some expect a player has to be great year 1, and improve from there. 
 

2.  Black and white.  Some believe you either have to be an All Pro to have “impact”, or you’re a bum.  No in between.  We have a solid roster of players that are doing a good job, otherwise they would not have the records they’ve had the past several seasons.  
 

 

 

I was just answering the question in respect of guys who "struggled" as rookies. 

 

And I certainly do not think it is all pro or bum. The Bills have a very solid, deep roster. What they lack is elite difference makers. Hopefully one or two emerge.

[BillsFanForever19]

57 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

1.  Impatience.  Some expect a player has to be great year 1, and improve from there. 
 

2.  Black and white.  Some believe you either have to be an All Pro to have “impact”, or you’re a bum.  No in between.  We have a solid roster of players that are doing a good job, otherwise they would not have the records they’ve had the past several seasons.  

 

This is pretty spot on. It comes down to desperation, which you can practically feel reading a lot of members posts on here.

 

In the drought years, we consistently weren't competing. But the team always did just enough to miss out on the best talent at the top of the Draft (combined with picking the wrong guys and/or the wrong positions when we did Draft). Now we're in an opposite position, but having a similar problem. We're always competing, but just missing out on a Championship. So we're always picking in the 25-30 range. And you're hard pressed to find 25-30 1st Round Talents in any Draft. Let alone 'Elite' talents. You have to get really lucky where we pick.

 

Combined with the salary cap always being a problem for us (thanks to a lot of different factors) and Beane not willing to mortgage the future, it creates a scenario where we're often relying on our Draft Picks to be the difference makers to take us over the top. It's a big ask for guys to be great right out of the gate picking where we pick on a regular basis.

 

And if they aren't great in Year 1 or Year 2, then they're garbage we're wasting our time on. Get them out of here and try again. There's no in between and no patience. You can see the lack of in between in this very thread. Where with some posters, if you haven't given up and are ready to move on from players like Keon Coleman or Dalton Kincaid and declare them busts, you're making excuses because you're a "homer".

 

Ultimately, it all boils down to the hunger for a title. And the way Beane builds a team. It causes many posters to be, frankly, downright unfair to developmental players.

Edited 11 hours ago by BillsFanForever19

[SoonerBillsFan]

31 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Benford has the potential to be elite.  Although I don’t think his athleticism is quite at that level.  
 

I am real excited to watch Hairston play.  He has elite speed.  And that’s a great attribute to start your NFL career with.  
 

I actually thought that Kincaid could be elite coming out of Utah.  But I may have been overly optimistic after watching him shred the USC defense in the 2022 PAC 12 championship. ( But that was a terrible defensive team.)

 

At this point I would be happy if Kincaid turns into a good TE. A Todd Heap type (used to play for the Ravens in the earlier 2000’s.)

 

As for Coleman he didn’t show a whole lot over the course of last season.  Let’s hope for a big jump this coming year.  

Benford being what it is, is 100% luck. If our brilliant GM had any real clue what Benford would become Elam would have never been drafted.

31 minutes ago, Pete said:

Chiefs elite-Mahomes, Chris Smith, Kelce, McDuffie are elite

 

Eagles-Saquan, Jalen Carter, AJ Brown, Lane Johnson are elite. Zack Baun, Landon Dickerson, and Cam Jurgens were also named to the Pro Bowl in 2024.  

 

Josh Allen is elite.  Benford.  Maybe Dion.   Both the Chiefs and Eagles have superior top end talent

And a smarter DC

[appoo]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The Chiefs currently have 3 - Mahomes, McDuffie and Jones. I don't think Kelce is anymore but at his peak may have been the greatest TE of all time.

 

The Eagles currently have 4 - AJ Brown, Barkley, Mailata and Carter. And both Quinyon Mitchell and Cooper DeJean will be in that category if they back up their rookie year in 2025.

You and I have very different definitions of elite 

[oldmanfan]

30 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I was just answering the question in respect of guys who "struggled" as rookies. 

 

And I certainly do not think it is all pro or bum. The Bills have a very solid, deep roster. What they lack is elite difference makers. Hopefully one or two emerge.

I get you, and agree on the guys you listed.

[GunnerBill]

20 minutes ago, appoo said:

You and I have very different definitions of elite 

 

Who there do you not think is elite?

[appoo]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Who there do you not think is elite?

McDuffie, AJ Brown, and Carter. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, appoo said:

McDuffie, AJ Brown, and Carter. 

 

McDuffie is the best slot corner in football. He is literally the best player at his position. I don't know how that isn't elite. AJ Brown is a slam dunk too for me. I think he is severely underrated. For me the only two receivers better than him right now are Jefferson and Chase. 

 

On Carter you maybe have more of a case. That one might be slightly generous in terms of elite status. He is probably a tick below that right now but he is so darn talented. 

 

[Dr. Who]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

McDuffie is the best slot corner in football. He is literally the best player at his position. I don't know how that isn't elite. AJ Brown is a slam dunk too for me. I think he is severely underrated. For me the only two receivers better than him right now are Jefferson and Chase. 

 

On Carter you maybe have more of a case. That one might be slightly generous in terms of elite status. He is probably a tick below that right now but he is so darn talented. 

 

If one restricts "elite" to 20 or 25 players league wide, that is just a semantic move, but it is also a way to diminish the difference between the Bills (a solid team with depth, but few players that can take over a game in a crucial moment of the playoffs, for example) and those teams that have won championships because they have multiple players on both sides of the ball that can do that.

 

Hopefully more players will emerge besides Josh Allen. There are candidates, though I don't see any at WR, for instance. 

[Mikie2times]

47 minutes ago, appoo said:

McDuffie, AJ Brown, and Carter. 

What is our match if those guys are not elite? Taron, Shakir, and Oliver? lmao... Really?