Is there an NFL team with a weaker WR group than the Bills?

[Avisan]

19 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

The forgotten outcome of that thread is that after week 5 just about every person on this board, including the person who started that thread, agreed that adding a WR was a necessary move. Beane himself has defend the Cooper trade by pointing out our offense scored 7 more PPG with him in the lineup. They are hoping that Palmer can replace or improve on what Cooper brought to the offense and that Coleman takes a big step forward in his development.

The actual forgotten outcome of that thread is the Bills were, again, offensive juggernauts that did not, in fact, struggle to win more than six games, and that Amari Cooper was a meaningful contributor for exactly two games last season.

 

MVS had an objectively better season for New Orleans in the same role that Cooper did, and it is hard to argue that Cooper offered something MVS did not.  Cooper did not save our offense any more than keeping MVS would have.  Obviously we all had high hopes for Cooper, but what he actually delivered wasn't particularly impactful.

[Motorin']

On 4/30/2025 at 9:50 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

In this century the average defensive rank of teams that won the SB is about 8th.   

 

So that's what championship caliber looks like.

 

The Bills have had better than "championship caliber" defense's more often than not in Josh Allen's playoff career.   

 

But no matter their rank and skill level on D the McDefense's have always played badly in the end on defense.

 

And Josh Allen's offense's have failed in the clutch with the ball in his hands and a chance to win the game first against Houston and now two consecutive years against KC and they also had horrific performances in defeat in between against KC(2020) and Cinci(2022).    

 

Josh Allen only finished strong in 1 of his 6 playoff defeats(13 seconds) but for some reason we give his offense a pass despite not getting it done in the clutch.  

 

 I say "his" offense because, like McD on D, Allen is the constant on offense.      

 

Organizationally they play poorly in the playoffs.   They gotta' get better on BOTH sides of the ball in the playoffs.

 

 

A lot of truth here. I'll add that having a mid-season funk nearly every year while dropping games against inferior teams, causing the Bills to miss out on the 1 seed is something an elite QB like Josh Allen shouldn't be doing either. 

 

And losing out on the bye and having to play Wild Card weekend every year is another reason they haven't reached a Super Bowl... Regularly capturing the #1 seed needs to be the main focus of the regular season, which means learning to win the stupid mid-season games against teams like Jacksonville, no matter what and no excuses. 

[GASabresIUFan]

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/buffalo-bills/news/buffalo-bills-wide-receivers-warned-about-big-changes-cuts-coming-curtis-samuel-elijah-moore-nfl/c69d982f740194371679eca2
 

Article basically says the additions of Moore and Prather make Samuel’s roster spot vulnerable.  Nice theory but Samuel has a cap hit of $9 mill, but a dead cap of 12.  I’m not sure this exactly helps the Bills to cut Samuel during camp.

 

I do see the similarities in the games of Moore and Samuel, and do agree that we probably don’t need both.  However, cutting Samuel does more cap damage than good.  Maybe it’s up to Brady to find good uses for his players.

 

Entering the season, the Bills top 3 WRs are Shakir, Coleman and Palmer.  The Bills have kept 5 the last 2 years, but have kept as many as 7 recently.  This leaves Moore, Samuel, Shavers, Shenault, and Prather competing for 2 or 3 slots.  I doubt we carry 7, but I think 6 is probable, especially if they move on from Codrington as a kick returner.

 

All that said, I never understood the Samuel signing last year.  His experience with Brady not withstanding, he brought a skill set we didn’t need since we had Shakir.  I don’t understand the Moore signing either, as he also is an inside receiver.  Although Samuel and Moore are track fast, neither has ever been used as a deep threat.  Unless Brady begins to utilize them as deep threats, both are wasted signings other than injury insurance for Shakir.  
 

 

 

[HaldimandBills]

On 4/28/2025 at 7:46 PM, HappyDays said:

 

Here's a question and I'm genuinely curious about your answer or anyone else that feels the same as you - what happens if we face KC in January and the defense looks exactly the same as it always does? Because this isn't the first offseason that we've devoted the bulk of our investments to the defense, and that strategy has not yet produced this mythical defense that can keep KC to 20 points or lower. Why are we assuming this year is different?

What off season have we seriously invested in defense outside applying a quick bandaid or two? From where I stand we are always rolling out 3rd wave budget DL and 6th and 7th round draft picks at db. Besides Von Miller what actual serious investment have we made in the defense? Our actual serious draft investments have been Oliver, Edmunds, Rosseau, Elam, Bernard, D. Williams, Epenesa, Harrison Philips, Bishop, Carter and Boogie Basham. 

 

Since Beane took over that is 11 defensive players taken in the first 3 rounds. 5 starters in the NFL currently. D. Williams on his way to starting. Bishop and Carter to early to tell. Elam and Basham are the only outright busts. That's a normal hit rate for NFL teams and even more impressive when you factor in the Bills usually pick 26 and higher. 

 

We can go one step further and break the DL investments down by off season which will prove just how unserious Beane has been in fixing the DL. This the area where we are being eaten alive consistently in the playoffs. FYI I'm furious with Beane that it's taken him this long to finally attempt to  fix the DL instead of the pathetic attempts he had been making. 

 

 

2018. Trent Murphy Star Lotulelei and Harrison Phillips

2019 Jordan Philips Ed Oliver

2020 Mario Addison Vernon Butler Quinton Jefferson? A.J. Epenesa

2021 Justin Zimmer Gregory Rousseau Boogie Basham

2022 Von Miller Daquan Jones Tim Settle

2023 Leonard Floyd Poona Ford 

2024 Austin Johnson Dawuane Smoot Casey Toohill DeWayne Carter

 

Look at that list. You call that trying to address the DL? Outside Ed Oliver, Rosseau, Von Miller I call that a lot of budget swings to fix the DL. Keep in mind the only defensive fixture on the Bills DL that Beane was adding to was Jerry Hughes. Bills have never in one off season come close to trying to address the DL or defense the way they are this off season. 2023 is the only one you could argue and adding two 30+ year old players isn't what I would call a serious off season defensive investment.

 

Now 2025 

 

Joey Bosa Michael Hoecht Larry Ogunjobi T.J. Sanders Landon Jackson Deone Walker

that is an acutal serious investment. 

 

Not even going to bother addressing the dbs because T. White's injuries really sank that group and this organization latched onto Levi Wallace and Dane Jackson for too long. 

 

Bills have been a budget defense relying on Matt Milano, Jordan Poyer, Micah Hyde, and an injured T White to be their best players. No wonder the Bills have sucked in the playoffs. When your four best players are two safeties, a off ball linebacker and a injured corner. No team builds their defense this way. Except the Buffalo Bills in the Josh Allen era.

 

Hopefully Ed Oliver, Greg Rosseau, Benford, Bernard, and T Johnson can be the nucleus with the new additions to launching a much better defensive roster. Maxwell Hairston and T.J. Sanders in particular should have Bills fans excited. We actually might have two legit corners and two legit pass rushing DT on 3rd down for the first time in the Josh Allen era. Add Bosa in there as well for two pass rushing  DEnds if the Bills can keep his snap count down and avoid injuries. 

 

Bills are actually attempting to overhaul the defense instead of throwing a few darts at the board. It plainly obvious the Bills have never come close to being this aggressive on defense in any off season.
 

Edited 13 hours ago by HaldimandBills

[QLBillsFan]

8 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said:

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/buffalo-bills/news/buffalo-bills-wide-receivers-warned-about-big-changes-cuts-coming-curtis-samuel-elijah-moore-nfl/c69d982f740194371679eca2
 

Article basically says the additions of Moore and Prather make Samuel’s roster spot vulnerable.  Nice theory but Samuel has a cap hit of $9 mill, but a dead cap of 12.  I’m not sure this exactly helps the Bills to cut Samuel during camp.

 

I do see the similarities in the games of Moore and Samuel, and do agree that we probably don’t need both.  However, cutting Samuel does more cap damage than good.  Maybe it’s up to Brady to find good uses for his players.

 

Entering the season, the Bills top 3 WRs are Shakir, Coleman and Palmer.  The Bills have kept 5 the last 2 years, but have kept as many as 7 recently.  This leaves Moore, Samuel, Shavers, Shenault, and Prather competing for 2 or 3 slots.  I doubt we carry 7, but I think 6 is probable, especially if they move on from Codrington as a kick returner.

 

All that said, I never understood the Samuel signing last year.  His experience with Brady not withstanding, he brought a skill set we didn’t need since we had Shakir.  I don’t understand the Moore signing either, as he also is an inside receiver.  Although Samuel and Moore are track fast, neither has ever been used as a deep threat.  Unless Brady begins to utilize them as deep threats, both are wasted signings other than injury insurance for Shakir.  
 

 

 

Article stating big changes is foolish. Samuel when healthy played pretty well down the stretch. Showed why he was brought in. I suspect he is WR 4 with Moore likely 5. Cutting Samuel is very very unappealing and makes that deal look like a complete strike out. I don’t see BB making that move and conceding the cap $$$. 

[NeverOutNick]

9 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said:

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/buffalo-bills/news/buffalo-bills-wide-receivers-warned-about-big-changes-cuts-coming-curtis-samuel-elijah-moore-nfl/c69d982f740194371679eca2
 

Article basically says the additions of Moore and Prather make Samuel’s roster spot vulnerable.  Nice theory but Samuel has a cap hit of $9 mill, but a dead cap of 12.  I’m not sure this exactly helps the Bills to cut Samuel during camp.

 

I do see the similarities in the games of Moore and Samuel, and do agree that we probably don’t need both.  However, cutting Samuel does more cap damage than good.  Maybe it’s up to Brady to find good uses for his players.

 

Entering the season, the Bills top 3 WRs are Shakir, Coleman and Palmer.  The Bills have kept 5 the last 2 years, but have kept as many as 7 recently.  This leaves Moore, Samuel, Shavers, Shenault, and Prather competing for 2 or 3 slots.  I doubt we carry 7, but I think 6 is probable, especially if they move on from Codrington as a kick returner.

 

All that said, I never understood the Samuel signing last year.  His experience with Brady not withstanding, he brought a skill set we didn’t need since we had Shakir.  I don’t understand the Moore signing either, as he also is an inside receiver.  Although Samuel and Moore are track fast, neither has ever been used as a deep threat.  Unless Brady begins to utilize them as deep threats, both are wasted signings other than injury insurance for Shakir.  
 

 

 

It’s lazy reporting click bait. Samuel and Moore have nothing to do with each other. Moore is an actual WR who can run the route tree and is a vertical threat. Samuel is a gadget WR playing close to the LOS and for all his speed, is not a vertical threat and never has been. They will both have their value but not the same role 

[Richard Noggin]

On 5/2/2025 at 5:11 PM, Motorin' said:

 

A lot of truth here. I'll add that having a mid-season funk nearly every year while dropping games against inferior teams, causing the Bills to miss out on the 1 seed is something an elite QB like Josh Allen shouldn't be doing either. 

 

And losing out on the bye and having to play Wild Card weekend every year is another reason they haven't reached a Super Bowl... Regularly capturing the #1 seed needs to be the main focus of the regular season, which means learning to win the stupid mid-season games against teams like Jacksonville, no matter what and no excuses. 

 

I've always seen it as the 2-game Midseason McDermott Reckoning, where the team's sins all get exposed, especially the defense, and even more specifically the RUN defense. McDermott can then have a come-to-Jesus moment with his team, and they rise again, enlightened...and go on a wicked run to the 2-seed and a KC or Cinci defeat. 

 

Came a little early last season. And the 2nd consecutive loss this time was more fluky and frustrating than anything. 

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

I've always seen it as the 2-game Midseason McDermott Reckoning, where the team's sins all get exposed, especially the defense, and even more specifically the RUN defense. McDermott can then have a come-to-Jesus moment with his team, and they rise again, enlightened...and go on a wicked run to the 2-seed and a KC or Cinci defeat. 

 

Came a little early last season. And the 2nd consecutive loss this time was more fluky and frustrating than anything. 

I think there's something to that narrative, but when you're fighting for the 1 seed, it's better not to need a tactical defeat to motivate the congregation.

[Richard Noggin]

Just now, Dr. Who said:

I think there's something to that narrative, but when you're fighting for the 1 seed, it's better not to need a tactical defeat to motivate the congregation.

 

From your lips to dad's ears. Which are also my ears. You get it. 

 

Feels at times like the coaches need the wakeup call just as much as the players. But either way, it's a thing we all see. And moreover, some years, by that 2nd consecutive loss, things have looked surprisingly bleak. Even the improbable optimists among us, myself included, have questioned our faith. 

 

(this concludes all religious double entendres)

[GASabresIUFan]

1 hour ago, NeverOutNick said:

It’s lazy reporting click bait. Samuel and Moore have nothing to do with each other. Moore is an actual WR who can run the route tree and is a vertical threat. Samuel is a gadget WR playing close to the LOS and for all his speed, is not a vertical threat and never has been. They will both have their value but not the same role 

Not quite.  Moore’s yards per catch last season was 8.8.  His YAC/r was 2.2.  This means his Air/r was 6.6 yards.  That’s not a deep threat.  That’s deeper than Samuel or Shakir, but he is an inside receiver or has been in his career.

 

Compare to Palmer.  His Y/C was 15 last season and his YAC/R was 2.6.  That means his AIR/R was 12.4.  Those are the stats of someone who runs deeper routes.  
Coleman was 19.2 Y/C with a YAC/R of 7.4.  His AIR/R 11.8.

 

As I’ve said before, Moore and/or Samuel need to be recast as a deep threat receiver.  Otherwise they are redundant inside WRs.  

[HaldimandBills]

On 5/2/2025 at 5:11 PM, Motorin' said:

 

A lot of truth here. I'll add that having a mid-season funk nearly every year while dropping games against inferior teams, causing the Bills to miss out on the 1 seed is something an elite QB like Josh Allen shouldn't be doing either. 

 

And losing out on the bye and having to play Wild Card weekend every year is another reason they haven't reached a Super Bowl... Regularly capturing the #1 seed needs to be the main focus of the regular season, which means learning to win the stupid mid-season games against teams like Jacksonville, no matter what and no excuses. 

I push back on the narrative that the Bills actually had a legit top 10 defense. Sure the #s played that out and you can only play the teams in front of you but there were many seasons in a row the Bills faced a ridiculous amount of trash, rookie, and back up QBs. 

 

The Bills defense has always been the same. Makes rookie, and low tier QBs look horrible only to be smashed by good QBs. 

 

The answer is simple the back 7 can greatly disrupt bad and young qbs. They can't do that to good QBs. Only a good pass rush can. The Bills have never had one against good QBs. 

 

Chiefs might beat other teams in the playoffs but that hasn't changed the fact that the Bengals, Niners, Ravens, Eagles, and the freaking Texans have all had far superior defensive showings against the the Chiefs in the playoffs than any of Buffalo's four attempts. 

 

Not surprising either as all those teams have/had superior defensive line talent than what the Bills have been pumping out. 

 

Round 1 -  32 year old Jerry Hughes and Trent Murphy with Star Lotulelei as your best DT

Round 2 - 33 year old Jerry Hughes and Mario Addison with rookie Ed Oliver and Vernon Butler as your DTs

Round 3 - Bills were so badly injured on defense it didn't matter but our Dends were Rosseau and Floyd who fell off a Cliff Week 8.

Round 4 - besides Rosseau and Oliver no one is even worth mentioning along the DL. 

 

If people actually went back and looked at the Bills DL depth it would come as no surprise why this team can't beat the Chiefs. Josh Allen is the only reason these games are competitive.

 

 

[NeverOutNick]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFan said:

Not quite.  Moore’s yards per catch last season was 8.8.  His YAC/r was 2.2.  This means his Air/r was 6.6 yards.  That’s not a deep threat.  That’s deeper than Samuel or Shakir, but he is an inside receiver or has been in his career.

 

Compare to Palmer.  His Y/C was 15 last season and his YAC/R was 2.6.  That means his AIR/R was 12.4.  Those are the stats of someone who runs deeper routes.  
Coleman was 19.2 Y/C with a YAC/R of 7.4.  His AIR/R 11.8.

 

As I’ve said before, Moore and/or Samuel need to be recast as a deep threat receiver.  Otherwise they are redundant inside WRs.  

Numbers are subjective. Scheme and QB play have a lot to do with results. Watch them play over their full body of work. Moore is a much better actual WR than Samuel, whose play screams gadget player with YAC ability

[GASabresIUFan]

13 minutes ago, NeverOutNick said:

Numbers are subjective. Scheme and QB play have a lot to do with results. Watch them play over their full body of work. Moore is a much better actual WR than Samuel, whose play screams gadget player with YAC ability

I didn't say he wasn't a better player.  All I'm saying is that his usage last year, and it's pretty consistent in his career, is inside and under 10 yards.  In fact his career average yards/C is 10.8 and his career YAC/R is 3.2.  That means he's catching the ball on average 7.6 yards down the field.  That the definition of an inside receiver.

 

With Kincaid, Shakir and Samuel already on the roster, I hope Brady is creative enough to find another way to utilize Moore's speed then just short throws over the middle.

Edited 8 hours ago by GASabresIUFan

[Bockeye]

7 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said:

Not quite.  Moore’s yards per catch last season was 8.8.  His YAC/r was 2.2.  This means his Air/r was 6.6 yards.  That’s not a deep threat.  That’s deeper than Samuel or Shakir, but he is an inside receiver or has been in his career.

 

Compare to Palmer.  His Y/C was 15 last season and his YAC/R was 2.6.  That means his AIR/R was 12.4.  Those are the stats of someone who runs deeper routes.  
Coleman was 19.2 Y/C with a YAC/R of 7.4.  His AIR/R 11.8.

 

As I’ve said before, Moore and/or Samuel need to be recast as a deep threat receiver.  Otherwise they are redundant inside WRs.  

Moore is a vertical threat.  He just hasn’t frequently been used that way on the teams he has been on.  It’s not that he can’t do it, 

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/90365/is-jets-elijah-moore-the-nfls-most-ignored-wide-receiver

 

 

[ganesh]

On 4/30/2025 at 8:30 PM, Pete said:

You are forgetting the 9TDs.  Mack and Amari made many huge plays and big TDs in playoffs and season.  Keion and Dalton didn't show up for playoffs.  

 

Mack played more snaps then any other WR.  James Cook and Josh were primary beneficiarys of Macks tenacious blocking skills. And Mack is a special teams Ace.  Someone is going to have to fill all those snaps at WR and 4 phase special teamer.

 

As Beane stated, the Bills offense scored more then 7 points a game when Amari was in the lineup.  There is more to football than 20 rec, 297 yards, its a little more complex than that simple methodology.

 

October 15 we sign Amari after being embarrassed by the Ravens, Texans, and Jets.  Our offense couldnt do anything. No WRs were getting open.  Beane is desperate for talent at WR, and trades for Cooper.  October 30 the Bills offense sets record with 8 straight games of 30 points or more.  That was the Amari Cooper effect.  And we have failed in replacing Mack and Amari, whom I believe you are severely underestimating

 

 

You are under estimating the play of Josh Palmer.  The season will unfold.

6 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said:

I didn't say he wasn't a better player.  All I'm saying is that his usage last year, and it's pretty consistent in his career, is inside and under 10 yards.  In fact his career average yards/C is 10.8 and his career YAC/R is 3.2.  That means he's catching the ball on average 7.6 yards down the field.  That the definition of an inside receiver.

 

With Kincaid, Shakir and Samuel already on the roster, I hope Brady is creative enough to find another way to utilize Moore's speed then just short throws over the middle.

Josh Palmer ???

7 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said:

Not quite.  Moore’s yards per catch last season was 8.8.  His YAC/r was 2.2.  This means his Air/r was 6.6 yards.  That’s not a deep threat.  That’s deeper than Samuel or Shakir, but he is an inside receiver or has been in his career.

 

Compare to Palmer.  His Y/C was 15 last season and his YAC/R was 2.6.  That means his AIR/R was 12.4.  Those are the stats of someone who runs deeper routes.  
Coleman was 19.2 Y/C with a YAC/R of 7.4.  His AIR/R 11.8.

 

As I’ve said before, Moore and/or Samuel need to be recast as a deep threat receiver.  Otherwise they are redundant inside WRs.  

I think Samuel's role in this offense is as a gadget player. They want him to line up behind the QB, at the edge or in the slot.  I think Samuel's position on this team will be determined in Training Camp.  

[GASabresIUFan]

1 hour ago, Bockeye said:

Moore is a vertical threat.  He just hasn’t frequently been used that way on the teams he has been on.  It’s not that he can’t do it, 

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/90365/is-jets-elijah-moore-the-nfls-most-ignored-wide-receiver

 

 

You aren’t a vertical threat until you actually do it in games.   If all you do is catch balls underneath then you are just another possession receiver.  
 

Having the ability to do something and actually doing it are two different things.  It’s why I’ve stated multiple times Brady needs to utilize Moore as a deep threat as we have enough underneath and possession type receivers.  Until that happens Moore is a redundant asset.  

[SoMAn]

The problem here is can you get an accurate assessment of value without including the QB? You can have the best tandem of WRs in the league, but if your QB is a six-foot noodle-armed player with poor field vision and minimal leadership skills, what have you really got? 

 

Josh has shown that he can make the most of a WR group minus a standout #1. 

 

So, the question should maybe be, would you rather have a QB of Josh's caliber and average WRs, or great WRs with a middle of the pack QB? 

The answer should be obvious.

 

For me, the QB is the ace in the hole that teams scramble for years trying to find. After Kelly and Marino, the Bills and Dolphins looked to fill that void for decades after the HOF careers of those legends. 

 

Unfortunately, top WRs now command idiot money. The Bills are trying to balance the team, spreading out their skill throughout the squad. The good news is that Buffalo is now an attractive landing spot for players. Maybe they'll get a #1 with a FA looking at a one year prove-deal that they can parlay into bigger money. Maybe they'll find that 5th round Stefon Diggs difference maker in 2026. 

 

To answer the question honestly, in my opinion, any team's WR group is only as good as their QB.  Would I love to see someone like Jefferson lined up opposite Coleman? Sure. But, not at the expense of the rest of the team.

[GASabresIUFan]

2 minutes ago, SoMAn said:

The problem here is can you get an accurate assessment of value without including the QB? You can have the best tandem of WRs in the league, but if your QB is a six-foot noodle-armed player with poor field vision and minimal leadership skills, what have you really got? 

 

Josh has shown that he can make the most of a WR group minus a standout #1. 

 

So, the question should maybe be, would you rather have a QB of Josh's caliber and average WRs, or great WRs with a middle of the pack QB? 

The answer should be obvious.

 

For me, the QB is the ace in the hole that teams scramble for years trying to find. After Kelly and Marino, the Bills and Dolphins looked to fill that void for decades after the HOF careers of those legends. 

 

Unfortunately, top WRs now command idiot money. The Bills are trying to balance the team, spreading out their skill throughout the squad. The good news is that Buffalo is now an attractive landing spot for players. Maybe they'll get a #1 with a FA looking at a one year prove-deal that they can parlay into bigger money. Maybe they'll find that 5th round Stefon Diggs difference maker in 2026. 

 

To answer the question honestly, in my opinion, any team's WR group is only as good as their QB.  Would I love to see someone like Jefferson lined up opposite Coleman? Sure. But, not at the expense of the rest of the team.

But you also need to give the QB the right tools to succeed.  If you have a fleet of slow WRs who can't separate consistently, are you really giving the QB the necessary tools?