Is there an NFL team with a weaker WR group than the Bills?

[Big Turk]

Not sure...would have to see their squat, deadlift and bench press numbers to say for sure 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, JGMcD2 said:

They’re not going back to the 2021 version of the offense where Josh Allen threw the ball 646 times. It’ll probably land somewhere between the 480 attempts from last season and the 560 range of the two years before that.

 

There are about 92 targets to replace with the departures of Mack Hollins, Amari Cooper, Marquez Valdes-Scantling, and Quintin Morris. Even if you bump that number up to 170 (gets you to the 160 ATT from Allen), Josh Palmer likely takes up half of that on his own. That leaves around 85 targets to spread among Shakir, Samuel, Coleman, and Kincaid - all of whom missed time last year and are in line for increased target share. And that’s before factoring in whoever ends up as TE3, plus Ty Johnson, James Cook, and the rest of the backfield. Those targets won’t sit around unused for long.

 

Agreed and quite honestly, I would rather see the targets that were going to Mack (blocking & dirty work specialist) and the Ghost of Cooper go to guys like Keon, Kincaid, Shakir, Palmer, and now Moore, not to mention Knox and RB's...anyway.  

 

To me, the weapons are better this year heading into the season (Palmer, Moore plus Keon/Samuel/Kincaid now healthy, and Keon having a year of experience) than where we were when we last saw the Bills walking off the field. 

[rafter]

On 4/27/2025 at 8:52 AM, LEBills said:

Exactly. Josh and the offense are subsidizing the defense.

Since Josh was drafted, in the first 3 rounds we have drafted 4 DTs, 4 DEs, 3 LBs and 2 CBs (both firsts). In that same timeframe we have drafted 1 WR, 2 TEs and 3 RBs (two no longer with team and the other, second best player on offense is in a contract battle).

 

People say we don’t need better players bc the offense was already legendary last year. It took a Herculean, MVP effort from Josh to get there. And in the end when Josh needed a player to step up when he didn’t make a perfect defensive read, the game was lost. But because a defense that has had so many resources poured into it sucked, we have to do it again instead of making an honest effort to improve both sides of the ball.

 

I loved the first three rounds of the draft. But then not even trying to get Josh a weapon until the last pick in the draft is malpractice. There is no new talent in the pipeline so that if Keon or Kincaid don’t progress and if Palmer and Samuel are who they have always been, the team has nothing at least being developed behind the underwhelming cast. Which is exactly how we got to this spot when we never drafted anyone when Diggs was here.

I type this like this will get to Beane, it won’t. This is who the Bills are. I’m just frustrated as a fan because I want what is best for the Bills and feel like giving Josh good talent on the offense is what would be best bc I trust him more than our coaches to get the most out of players. 
 

Go Bills, pay James Cook.

 

Second best player is Dawkins and its not even close.

They've invested in the o-line. Not enough picks and money to everywhere.  Hopefully the revamped D gets Josh back on the field faster.

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

It's true that he doesn't prepare like Brady and needs more help.

 

But Brady also had championship caliber defenses that held his opponents to an average of 20 points in their 6 Super Bowl victories. 

 

In the Bills 5 loses since 2020 the Defense has given up an average of 33 points. 

 

Giving Allen more help also includes giving him a championship caliber defense so he only has to score 21-24 points to win a Super Bowl. 

 

 

In this century the average defensive rank of teams that won the SB is about 8th.   

 

So that's what championship caliber looks like.

 

The Bills have had better than "championship caliber" defense's more often than not in Josh Allen's playoff career.   

 

But no matter their rank and skill level on D the McDefense's have always played badly in the end on defense.

 

And Josh Allen's offense's have failed in the clutch with the ball in his hands and a chance to win the game first against Houston and now two consecutive years against KC and they also had horrific performances in defeat in between against KC(2020) and Cinci(2022).    

 

Josh Allen only finished strong in 1 of his 6 playoff defeats(13 seconds) but for some reason we give his offense a pass despite not getting it done in the clutch.  

 

 I say "his" offense because, like McD on D, Allen is the constant on offense.      

 

Organizationally they play poorly in the playoffs.   They gotta' get better on BOTH sides of the ball in the playoffs.

 

[LEBills]

8 minutes ago, rafter said:

 

Second best player is Dawkins and its not even close.

They've invested in the o-line. Not enough picks and money to everywhere.  Hopefully the revamped D gets Josh back on the field faster.

I was talking about skill possession players but was not clear I suppose. Yes football is a balancing act. Having good skill position players is part of that balance. I hope what we have will be good enough and hope we are able to continue building it like we have other parts of the team. Pay James Cook.

[GASabresIUFan]

1 hour ago, LEBills said:

Pay James Cook.

Yep!

 

Who is, after Josh, the best skill player on offense drafted by Beane?  The answer by a country mile is Cook. 
 

Back on topic for a second, with the signing of Moore do the Beane critics still think we have the worst WR group in the NFL?

[rafter]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said:

Yep!

 

Who is, after Josh, the best skill player on offense drafted by Beane?  The answer by a country mile is Cook. 
 

Back on topic for a second, with the signing of Moore do the Beane critics still think we have the worst WR group in the NFL?

Im curious what the dropoff will be with other decent backs like Davis. We are judging cook behind the new revamped oline w new OC.

Perhaps Shakir is next best if the dropoff isnt as great.

[GASabresIUFan]

1 minute ago, rafter said:

Im curious what the dropoff will be with other decent backs like Davis. We are judging cook behind the new revamped oline w new OC.

Perhaps Shakir is next best if the dropoff isnt as great.

Considering that Davis averaged a full yard per carry less than Cook, I'd say there is a pretty large gap between the two players.

 

As to Shakir, he has the potential to be up there, as do Coleman and Kincaid.  Beane has never drafted a 1000 yard receiver.  Cook was his first 1000 yard rusher and he has now done it twice.

 

Right now I'd probably argue that Singletary is 3rd on the list after Cook.  Devin had 4 seasons of 950 to 1100 yards of offense.  Gabe Davis' best season was 836 yards.  

[Thurman#1]

17 hours ago, Pete said:

You are forgetting the 9TDs.  Mack and Amari made many huge plays and big TDs in playoffs and season.  Keion and Dalton didn't show up for playoffs.  

 

Mack played more snaps then any other WR.  James Cook and Josh were primary beneficiarys of Macks tenacious blocking skills. And Mack is a special teams Ace.  Someone is going to have to fill all those snaps at WR and 4 phase special teamer.

 

As Beane stated, the Bills offense scored more then 7 points a game when Amari was in the lineup.  There is more to football than 20 rec, 297 yards, its a little more complex than that simple methodology.

 

October 15 we sign Amari after being embarrassed by the Ravens, Texans, and Jets.  Our offense couldnt do anything. No WRs were getting open.  Beane is desperate for talent at WR, and trades for Cooper.  October 30 the Bills offense sets record with 8 straight games of 30 points or more.  That was the Amari Cooper effect.  And we have failed in replacing Mack and Amari, whom I believe you are severely underestimating

 

 

 

 

Keon and Dalton didn't show up to the playoffs because both were injured pretty badly. Keon had a broken wrist and Dalton couldn't move well with his leg problems.

 

And the idea that Beane signed Amari out of desperation is purely from your own imagination. Maybe it seemed like a good deal, and a good chance to try out a guy who might be terrific, possibly even so terrific that we'd extend his contract or sign him for another year or two.

 

Same with the idea that Amari was responsible for the improvement. Allen started the year with one WR he'd ever worked with before and a bunch of very young guys as the keys. Being surprised it took a few weeks for them all to get on the same page is like being shocked by snow in the wintertime in Buffalo.

 

If Amari was the reason for all that improvement, how come when he was off the field (which was a lot), there was no fall-off in performance? 

 

The correct answer? Because it wasn't "the Amari Cooper effect." It was the team starting to work together better. Cooper helped a bit, but the idea that he was the one behind all the improvement is flat-out ridiculous.

 

 

On 4/27/2025 at 4:50 PM, Pete said:

Is there an NFL team with a weaker WR group than the Bills?

 

Wrong question. It just is.

 

The question is this:  Is there an NFL team with a weaker passing game than the Bills?

 

The answer is nearly all of them.

 

It's been said before a million times, most recently by Beane, but a million times before that.

 

The goal in football is to have the best team. Not the best wide receiver group.

 

 

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

 

 

5 hours ago, LEBills said:

I was talking about skill possession players but was not clear I suppose. Yes football is a balancing act. Having good skill position players is part of that balance. I hope what we have will be good enough and hope we are able to continue building it like we have other parts of the team. Pay James Cook.

 

 

All for paying Cook if he accepts reasonable value.

 

If he won't accept $15M per year, thanks for your hard work, James. But in any case, he'll be here this year. The problem is next year.

Edited 6 hours ago by Thurman#1

[LEBills]

5 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said:

Yep!

 

Who is, after Josh, the best skill player on offense drafted by Beane?  The answer by a country mile is Cook. 
 

Back on topic for a second, with the signing of Moore do the Beane critics still think we have the worst WR group in the NFL?

Honestly he may be the second best player drafted by Beane period, though at an undervalued position. The others in contention are Tremaine, Benford, Spencer Brown, and Rousseau. Maybe Im forgetting someone else. 
 

Our WR 1-5 probably stacks up well with several other teams WRs 2-5, just missing that top end talent. Glad they improved the WR5 spot over Shavers/Shenault. Really hoping Moore can take over the return duties so we can cut Coddrington.

[GunnerBill]

37 minutes ago, LEBills said:

 

Our WR 1-5 probably stacks up well with several other teams WRs 2-5, just missing that top end talent. 

 

The addition of Moore to me means the Bills have four proven high end #3 receivers: Palmer, Shakir, Moore and Samuel. With Josh Allen throwing them the ball at least a couple of those guys are capable of putting up at least WR2 type numbers. And then Coleman's development and the role of Kincaid are kinda the wildcards for me. 

[mannc]

1 hour ago, LEBills said:

Honestly he may be the second best player drafted by Beane period, though at an undervalued position. The others in contention are Tremaine, Benford, Spencer Brown, and Rousseau. Maybe Im forgetting someone else. 
 

 

I’d add Kalil Shakir to that list, especially as a 5th rounder at a high value position …hope you’re just joking about Tremaine Edwards.

[LEBills]

49 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The addition of Moore to me means the Bills have four proven high end #3 receivers: Palmer, Shakir, Moore and Samuel. With Josh Allen throwing them the ball at least a couple of those guys are capable of putting up at least WR2 type numbers. And then Coleman's development and the role of Kincaid are kinda the wildcards for me. 

Yea I think Shakir is a higher end #2 since he was like 37th in ypg last year. Then Coleman and Palmer were like 54 and 65 respectively, then Moore was somewhere in the 70s so yea 1 WR2, then 3 WR3…maybe 4 if Samuel is back to where his career usually is. Deeper but no high end players.

 

20 minutes ago, mannc said:

I’d add Kalil Shakir to that list, especially as a 5th rounder at a high value position …hope you’re just joking about Tremaine Edwards.

 

I love Shakir but he had 821 yards and 4 TDs in his best season last year. Cook had 1250 yards and 18 TDs last year and over 1500 yards in 2023. Shakir is one of the best values we have drafted but not close to the second best player imo.

 

I only include Tremaine because he was a 2 time pro bowler with us and the number of pro bowlers drafted under Beane is not very long.

[mannc]

9 minutes ago, LEBills said:

Yea I think Shakir is a higher end #2 since he was like 37th in ypg last year. Then Coleman and Palmer were like 54 and 65 respectively, then Moore was somewhere in the 70s so yea 1 WR2, then 3 WR3…maybe 4 if Samuel is back to where his career usually is. Deeper but no high end players.

 

 

I love Shakir but he had 821 yards and 4 TDs in his best season last year. Cook had 1250 yards and 18 TDs last year and over 1500 yards in 2023. Shakir is one of the best values we have drafted but not close to the second best player imo.

 

 

Then why is Shakir’s second contract about $5 million/year more than Cook will make on the open market?

[PaattMaann]

12 minutes ago, LEBills said:

Yea I think Shakir is a higher end #2 since he was like 37th in ypg last year. Then Coleman and Palmer were like 54 and 65 respectively, then Moore was somewhere in the 70s so yea 1 WR2, then 3 WR3…maybe 4 if Samuel is back to where his career usually is. Deeper but no high end players.

 

 

I love Shakir but he had 821 yards and 4 TDs in his best season last year. Cook had 1250 yards and 18 TDs last year and over 1500 yards in 2023. Shakir is one of the best values we have drafted but not close to the second best player imo.

 

I only include Tremaine because he was a 2 time pro bowler with us and the number of pro bowlers drafted under Beane is not very long.

 

Pro Bowl's are a joke, why are you using that as a metric for anything? (not chiming in on your argument, simply that no one cares about Pro Bowls, its a popularity contest, not a reflection of on field performance)

[LEBills]

2 minutes ago, PaattMaann said:

 

Pro Bowl's are a joke, why are you using that as a metric for anything? (not chiming in on your argument, simply that no one cares about Pro Bowls, its a popularity contest, not a reflection of on field performance)

Yea I agree, that’s why I included other players that have not made the pro bowl. I was trying to be as charitable as I could to Beane and the other options for best player drafted since it’s a bit of a short list.

 

5 minutes ago, mannc said:

Then why is Shakir’s second contract about $5 million/year more than Cook will make on the open market?

Idk what Cook will make on the open market. But Michael Pittman, Deebo, and Calvin Ridley all make more than Saquon. Positions get valued differently in the NFL, but that is a different conversation than best player. 

[mannc]

7 minutes ago, LEBills said:

Yea I agree, that’s why I included other players that have not made the pro bowl. I was trying to be as charitable as I could to Beane and the other options for best player drafted since it’s a bit of a short list.

 

Idk what Cook will make on the open market. But Michael Pittman, Deebo, and Calvin Ridley all make more than Saquon. Positions get valued differently in the NFL, but that is a different conversation than best player. 

If Cook is such a great player, then why don’t the Bills want to sign him to a second contract?   

[zevo]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

In this century the average defensive rank of teams that won the SB is about 8th.   

 

So that's what championship caliber looks like.

 

The Bills have had better than "championship caliber" defense's more often than not in Josh Allen's playoff career.   

 

But no matter their rank and skill level on D the McDefense's have always played badly in the end on defense.

 

And Josh Allen's offense's have failed in the clutch with the ball in his hands and a chance to win the game first against Houston and now two consecutive years against KC and they also had horrific performances in defeat in between against KC(2020) and Cinci(2022).    

 

Josh Allen only finished strong in 1 of his 6 playoff defeats(13 seconds) but for some reason we give his offense a pass despite not getting it done in the clutch.  

 

 I say "his" offense because, like McD on D, Allen is the constant on offense.      

 

Organizationally they play poorly in the playoffs.   They gotta' get better on BOTH sides of the ball in the playoffs.

 

I couldn't agree more. He is incredible and we are blessed to have him. But I need elevation in that moment. The great ones always do.

[LEBills]

15 minutes ago, mannc said:

If Cook is such a great player, then why don’t the Bills want to sign him to a second contract?   

They may not value running backs that way, but he is still a really good player. Schoen in NJ is from Beane’s tree and he let Saquon walk bc he didn’t think running backs were worth that much.
 

For me I would rather pay him because I know he is good, our running game was very important last year and I don’t want to spend a high draft pick to replace him next year. But this is probably getting a little off track from the original topic, so I hope you have a great day.