Harrison Butker…oy vey…what a commencement “speech”

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

For the Word of God to be specific to one time period God himself would have to be relegated to one time period.  God is omnipresent and omniscient, so his Word is as well.   The Bible is the Word of God, as such it covers all time not just one epoch.  

 

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

 

 

Again disputed among theologians. It is not a universally accepted position that every word in the bible is the word of God. That might be your belief it is NOT a universal Christian belief. 

[oldmanfan]

29 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

It's intentional because the number of stay-at-home Mothers is three times greater than Fathers.  I added Fathers here because I wasnt directly quoting Butker, only attempting to explain the lie that is told to people across the world.   As far as me using so much detail, you can choose not to read it.

Where does he say he doesnt love sinners in his address?

Where does he say he does?  That is what we’re called to do.  Instead he criticized politicians and the leaders of his church not to mention the comments we’ve discussed.

 

 

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again disputed among theologians. It is not a universally accepted position that every word in the bible is the word of God. That might be your belief it is NOT a universal Christian belief. 

It's certainly is the Catholic position 

 

The first and largest Christian Church

Edited May 18 by Buffalo716

[What a Tuel]

20 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

He did not say that about his wife.  He said that his wife would say her life truly started when she began living her vocation as a wife and mother.  If you are going to parse words be accurate.

 

By implication he is telling the women in the audience their only vocation if they want their life to truly start is to be a wife and mother.  That other vocations don’t count.

 

 

By this notion, then if a woman is an engineer, but then becomes a teacher and claims her life (or vocation) truly started when she became a teacher, then she is automatically implying that she does not hold engineers in high regard? Thats definitely flawed logic.

 

 

20 hours ago, ImpactCorey said:

 

Using his wife to prove your point is a really bad example.  In fact he says for his wife it WAS mutually exclusive:

 

"Isabelle's dream of having a career might not have come true, but if you asked her today if she has any regrets on her decision, she would laugh out loud, without hesitation, and say, “Heck, No.”"

 

She had to give up not only a career, but her DREAM career to be a homemaker.  That is by definition, mutually exclusive.  What is stopping her from pursuing her career otherwise?

 

His wife made the choice. That does not imply you have to choose.

 

Many woman play both roles. He certainly mentions being blessed enough to allow her to completely dedicate herself to educator/mother/wife.

Edited May 18 by What a Tuel

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

It's certainly is the Catholic position 

 

The first and largest Christian Church

 

Yes it is. Catholicism is full of plenty of other contradictions though. 

 

I speak as an avowed athiest who went to Catholic school. 

[ImpactCorey]

3 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

His wife made the choice. That does not imply you have to choose.

 

Many woman play both roles. He certainly mentions being blessed enough to allow her to completely dedicate herself to educator/mother/wife.

 

I think we are saying the same thing.  Using his wife is a bad example of it not being mutually exclusive.  In her case she chose one over the other.  I would think using someone that chose to do both would be a better example of it not being mutually exclusive.

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes it is. Catholicism is full of plenty of other contradictions though. 

 

I speak as an avowed athiest who went to Catholic school. 

I went to Catholic School my entire life and I'm still a member of the church and fully confirmed

 

I still will be nothing but Catholic

 

Even Jesus knew the church would schism and split into thousands of denominations... 

 

One holy Catholic apostolic 

 

The mark of Jesus church 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 18 by Buffalo716

[What a Tuel]

17 hours ago, SoTier said:

I have a transgender person in my family.   Being transgender is not something somebody chooses or learns, and "dysphoria" doesn't come close to describing what transgender people suffer because of the mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identification.  They know they are "miswired" even as very young children.  

 

That very may well be. But there are certainly a percentage of people who can't tell if they are actually "miswired" or not especially kids.

 

The idea that they automatically know one way or another at that age when their brain isnt near full development is ridiculous. Throw on top that if you do identify as "different" you are hailed as special, unique, heroic, someone who stands out. Yeah yeah "no one would ever put them through that ridicule on purpose" but they in fact do with many different methods besides this over the past decades to make themselves stand out and trans is sometimes another tool to achieve that. Thats not denying trans people exist, it is reality. Kids dream of being special and unique.

Edited May 18 by What a Tuel

[What a Tuel]

7 minutes ago, ImpactCorey said:

 

I think we are saying the same thing.  Using his wife is a bad example of it not being mutually exclusive.  In her case she chose one over the other.  I would think using someone that chose to do both would be a better example of it not being mutually exclusive.

 

I didn't use his wife as an example. The poster said Butker said its mutually exclusive. I said he did not say that and that he only brought up his wife who did choose.

 

Maybe a bad example from Butker that leads people to further attack him but honestly if gives more credence to the fact that he is demonstrating the value a woman brings to the household and people are tearing it down because it implies they cant go serve a corporate overlord bc thats the dream instead.

[DrW]

2 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

It's intentional because the number of stay-at-home Mothers is three times greater than Fathers.  I added Fathers here because I wasnt directly quoting Butker, only attempting to explain the lie that is told to people across the world.   As far as me using so much detail, you can choose not to read it.

 

 

First, let me clarify a misunderstanding. I was serious and not mocking you when I thanked you for the detail; I truly appreciated it.

 

Second, see the bolded. How do you know about Butker's reasoning behind ignoring stay-at-home dads? Is it possible that he does not see being a stay-at-home dad as an appropriate role for a man?

Edited May 18 by DrW

[ImpactCorey]

2 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

I didn't use his wife as an example. The poster said Butker said its mutually exclusive. I said he did not say that and that he only brought up his wife who did choose.

 

Maybe a bad example from Butker that leads people to further attack him but honestly if gives more credence to the fact that he is demonstrating the value a woman brings to the household and people are tearing it down because it implies they cant go serve a corporate overlord bc thats the dream instead.

 

I suppose we can assume Butker's choice of words was not great and that he does believe all that.  I'm ok with that.

 

However the fact is if he instead said something like:

 

"Some of you will have careers and that is great.  Some of you will be homemakers and that is great as well.  Some of you will even do both and that too is incredible.  Do what brings you joy and don't feel like you have to be pushed one way or the other".

 

We wouldn't be talking about it.  It would have been really easy for him to do that.  Yet he didn't.  Wny not?

 

I'd also love someone to explain the "diabolical lies".  What lies?  Given the context of the rest of his speech, it's hard not to feel like the "diabolical lies" are the ones that say women can be happy seeking careers.  If that's not the lies then what?  

 

[GunnerBill]

20 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I went to Catholic School my entire life and I'm still a member of the church and fully confirmed

 

I still will be nothing but Catholic... I'll believe in thousands of years of Catholic tradition over Martin Luther

 

Remember Jesus predicted all of the schisms between the branches and everything... He still only wanted one Church

 

See I think a lot of what the Catholic Church does is EXACTLY that. It is tradition first and foremost. That is fine. I have no problem with tradition. But when that tradition leads to lecturing on morality.... well morality is not absolute it develops as society does.

[Einstein]

17 hours ago, SoTier said:

 They know they are "miswired" even as very young children.  

 

What is truly fascinating is that the vast majority (80%) of newly minted trans people are from the United States. It's almost as if the media/culture proliferates the desire.

 

Of course, we are just now starting to see the pendulum swing the other way, with many of these children realizing later in life that they were never trans. Dr. Michael Irwig, a board certified endocrinologist and Harvard faculty member predicted this, stating:

“There is reason to believe that the numbers of detransitioners may increase. It is quite possible that low reported rates of detransition and regret in previous populations will no longer apply to current populations,”

Even outspoken trans advocates, such as trans-psychologist Erica Anderson (who herself is trans), has begun to postulate the reason, stating:

“A fair number of kids are getting into it because it’s trendy... I think in our haste to be supportive, we’re missing that element. I have these private thoughts: ‘This has gone too far. It’s going to get worse. I don’t want any part of it,"

Here is a good article on that:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/02/opinion/transgender-children-gender-dysphoria.html

[thenorthremembers]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again disputed among theologians. It is not a universally accepted position that every word in the bible is the word of God. That might be your belief it is NOT a universal Christian belief. 

I am not going to argue with you about what theologians think or whether doubt exists among many Christians about the content of the Bible.  I struggle with doubt myself. 

 

But I will tell you that I 100% disagree with you if you think the very foundation of the Christian faith isn't that every word in the Bible is the living breathing Word of or from God.    I would go a step further and say that any arm of Christianity that doesn't believe that isn't being true to tenants of Christianity.  

 

 

36 minutes ago, DrW said:

 

First, let me clarify a misunderstanding. I was serious and not mocking you when I thanked you for the detail; I truly appreciated it.

 

Second, see the bolded. How do you know about Butker's reasoning behind ignoring stay-at-home dads? Is it possible that he does not see being a stay-at-home dad as an appropriate role for a man?

I appreciate that.  I am admittedly sensitive to that.

 

I don't know what Butker was thinking and I don't want to say what he thinks of stay at home Dad's.  My thinking is in a stroke of irony he left out stay at home dad's as it's not the general norm.  He also could just be a human who is way too young and wealthy to be speaking in broad terms in a commencement speech.

Edited May 18 by thenorthremembers

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

I am not going to argue with you about what theologians think or whether doubt exists among many Christians about the content of the Bible.  I struggle with doubt myself. 

 

But I will tell you that I 100% disagree with you if you think the very foundation of the Christian faith isn't that every word in the Bible is the living breathing Word of or from God.    I would go a step further and say that any arm of Christianity that doesn't believe that isn't being true to tenants of Christianity.  

 

 

 

With respect, I think that is imposing your belief system on others. There are multiple strands of Christianity and they come at it quite differently.

[Einstein]

16 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

But I will tell you that I 100% disagree with you if you think the very foundation of the Christian faith isn't that every word in the Bible is the living breathing Word of or from God.    I would go a step further and say that any arm of Christianity that doesn't believe that isn't being true to tenants of Christianity.  

Agreed. The very foundation of Christianity crumbles if you start from a reference point where the Bible is not the Word of God.

With that as a foundation, who decides what is the Word of God and what is not? Who is the authority on what chapters or verses are Deity written and what are man written? Who is to say that all the parts including Christ are not the man-made portions? Which then would negate the entire "Christ" part of "Christianity" leaving only "anity".

The idea that we can conclude that the Bible is not Gods word but then believe in Christ is nonsensical. It is akin to saying that one can believes in the integrity of a building while simultaneously asserting that its foundation is made of sand

There is no sect of Christianity that can believe the Bible is not the Word of God, because without doing so, there is no Christianity. I'm sure there are plenty of false preachers who teach this nonsense however.

[thenorthremembers]

22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

With respect, I think that is imposing your belief system on others. There are multiple strands of Christianity and they come at it quite differently.

It's not imposing your belief system on something.  It's allowing people with free will to either believe the foundation of your religion or to not.   If you do not believe the Bible is the Word of God you're practicing an altered version of the faith, not the faith itself. 

 

There are plenty of people who call themselves Christians who pick and choose what they believe from the Bible.   There are churches who believe homosexuality isn't a sin.  There are churches who say hell doesn't exist.   There are churches that dont believe Jesus is the son of God.  Those are not Christian churches.  Those are churches who want to appeal to societal beliefs and not the beliefs of the actual doctrine the church was built around.

Edited May 18 by thenorthremembers

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

It's not imposing your belief system on something.  It's allowing people with free will to either believe the foundation of your religion or to not.   If you do not believe the Bible is the Word of God you're practicing an altered version of the faith, not the faith itself. 

 

There are plenty of people who call themselves Christians who pick and choose what they believe from the Bible.   There are churches who believe homosexuality isn't a sin.  There are churches who say hell doesn't exist.   There are churches that dont believe Jesus is the son of God.  Those are not Christian churches.  Those are churches who want to appeal to societal beliefs and not the beliefs of the actual doctrine the church was built around.

 

That is your view. It isn't everyone's view. It is imposing.

[Buffalo716]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is your view. It isn't everyone's view. It is imposing.

To be fair... And as I have said... I love everybody whether you're Jewish Muslim Baptist Catholic or Lutheran 

 

I don't judge based on your belief 

 

But the main tenant of Christianity.. is and has always been that Jesus Christ is God incarnate... The son of God on Earth who took away the sins of the world

 

Father son holy spirit all one 

 

That is what makes Christianity Christianity

Edited May 18 by Buffalo716

[thenorthremembers]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is your view. It isn't everyone's view. It is imposing.

Understood.  There are lots of viewpoints, it's a special part of this country.   Some viewpoints are good others are bad.  People can practice their faith anyway they'd like.  We even have feminists and LGBTQ people converting to Islam.  

 

When it comes to the Bible being the literal Word of God, I am gonna go ahead and roll with mine.    

Edited May 18 by thenorthremembers