Harrison Butker…oy vey…what a commencement “speech”

[dorquemada]

3 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Smaller % populations control 25%+ more of the world's wealth. 

 

Just saying...

 

Oh boy here we go. Don't you have a college commencement to ruin?

[Neo]

God, class, income, values .. what a feeding frenzy chum we have!

[ExiledInIllinois]

4 minutes ago, Neo said:

God, class, income, values .. what a feeding frenzy chum we have!

[Mike in Horseheads]

[Beck Water]

12 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

What I don't understand is why anybody cares what a football player says at a parochial school graduation. 

 

When I was young I slept around big time and drank beer. If this guy made a speech condemning me and others of my ilk, I cannot stress enough how little I would care. If a person is gay, why would the comments of this person be of any importance at all to them? I'm being serious. I simply cannot fathom why anyone should care or even be injured in any way. Would said person stop being gay? Become more gay? 

 

I have three quite accomplished, wonderful daughters. They are proud women (and Bills fans LOL). If this person did make bad comments about women they would probably call him a name of sorts and completely forget about it the next day because comments like this are inconsequential in their busy lives. 

 

I think that today too many people think that everyone else simply HAS to agree with them. It is not a good omen for the country.

 

As always, jmo.

 

That's a really fair question, Bill, and I think it deserves a thoughtful answer so I'll try.  I'll also try to be uncharacteristically brief about it.

 

In part, it comes down to the so-called "paradox of tolerance", in which people who speak out against prejudiced, intolerant speech have it pointed out that they are being themselves intolerant of another person's opinions.  Why not just "live and let live", why should you care?  To me, one of the best responses is Yonatan Zunger's essay "Tolerance is not a Moral Precept", in which he frames tolerance not as a moral imperative, but as a "peace treaty" which allows different people of different views to live side by side and not be at each other's throats with the belief "that if this doesn’t directly affect our lives, it is none of our business."  (I think that's what you're expressing above).  I recommend it as reading; it will come up with a demand to join Medium, just click on the X and it will let you read.

 

Zunger points out that when viewed as a peace treaty, the limits of tolerance become obvious: a peace treaty applies only to those who are willing to abide by its terms; it is not "a suicide pact" where we are obliged to tolerate people's stated opposition to our lives and safety, or our neighbors’ lives and safety. (It's fundamentally the same principle as "your right to swing your fist, ends at my nose")

So if someone says "I wouldn't want to be friends with a gay person because I don't think it's right" (or "I don't think it's moral to sleep around and drink and I don't associate with people who do"), they may be living by the terms of the treaty.  They're talking about how they choose to live their life, whatever.  If they refer to an LGBTQ person as an "abomination", they're using dehumanizing language - abominations aren't people with the same fundamentally human feelings and experiences we all share, right?.  IMHO not only a gay person, but all people should care then, because historically, dehumanizing language has accompanied systematic discrimination and even systematic atrocities.

 

Where Butker went, referencing "dangerous gender ideologies" and "the deadly sin sort of pride that has an entire month dedicated to it", he is verging close to dehumanizing language.  If a person lives their life with "dangerous gender ideologies" or "deadly sin", are they a person with the same human feelings and experiences and right to live their lives and talk about their experiences?  If something is dangerous and deadly and I live by it, do I have the same rights to live in our communities peacefully?  I dunno, but that's why my ears pricked up.

 

That's why I care, and feel concern for things like this being said.  If no one speaks up, it can become normalized.  And if it becomes normalized, then historically, too often, it doesn't end with words but with actual impacts on people's lives and safety.

As far as Butker's comments about the true vocation of wives and mothers towards which ladies should feel most excitement: the same principle applies.  Is this an indication that the speaker is expressing his personal beliefs, which I should tolerate?  If I were one of the young women who just worked my ass off for 8 semesters to earn a degree only to hear from my college's chosen and endorsed commencement speaker that my true vocation is as a wife and mother, I would feel PISSED because it would seem to be devaluing my efforts.  But whatever.

 

My daughter, and likely your daughters, have been able to pursue whatever career or vocation and hobbies they freely chose.  They have been able to receive whatever health care they choose, including reproductive health care.   The real concern I feel is, are these beliefs part of an organized attempt to impose a set of restrictions on me, my daughter, your daughters?  And there are documented cases where they are.

Brief as I can be, Peace Out!

 

 

Edited May 18 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

On 5/15/2024 at 11:41 AM, Logic said:

1.) I support the right of every American to espouse whatever opinion they want, even if I don't agree with what they say.

2.) His specific message seems pretty on-brand for the audience to whom he was speaking.

3.) His words are incredibly tone deaf and, as others have pointed out, do not acknowledge the reality that the lived experience of a rich man (and his wife) is likely quite different than that of most normal people, and is not necessarily relatable or applicable.

4.) It seems somewhat bizarre to tell a bunch of women who are about to graduate from college that they ought to stick to the kitchen instead.

5.) Anything else I could say would likely offend people, venture into PPP territory, or generally not be productive. Instead, I will just keep my mouth shut and take my cue from my friends in the south and say regarding Harrison Butker: "Bless his little heart".

 

FIFY

 

Edit: actually, it would appear his specific message was not on-brand for all of his audience.  The Benedictine Sisters who co-founded the college objected.  
https://www.kansascity.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/melinda-henneberger/article288540845.html
 

Quote

As a founding institution and sponsor of Benedictine College, the sisters of Mount St. Scholastica find it necessary to respond to the controversial remarks of Harrison Butker as commencement speaker.

 

“The Sisters of Mt. Scholastica do not believe that Harrison Butker’s comments in his 2024 Benedictine College commencement address represent the Catholic, Benedictine, liberal arts college that our founders envisioned and in which we have been so invested.

“Instead of promoting unity in our church, our nation and the world, his comments seem to have fostered division. One of our concerns was the assertion that being a homemaker is the highest calling for a woman. We sisters have dedicated our lives to God and God’s people, including the many women whom we have taught and influenced during the past 160 years. These women have made a tremendous difference in the world in their roles as wives and mothers, and through their God-given talents in leadership, scholarship and their careers.
 

“Our community has taught young women and men not just how to be ‘homemakers’ in a limited sense, but rather how to make a Gospel-centered, compassionate home within themselves where they can welcome others as Christ, empowering them to be the best versions of themselves.

“We reject a narrow definition of what it means to be Catholic. We are faithful members of the Catholic Church who embrace and promote the values of the Gospel, St. Benedict, and Vatican II and the teachings of Pope Francis.

“We want to be known as an inclusive, welcoming community, embracing Benedictine values that have endured for more than 1500 years and have spread through every continent and nation. We believe those values are the core of Benedictine College.”

 

 

Edited May 18 by Beck Water

[SoTier]

 

4 hours ago, What a Tuel said:

 

Transgender and gender dysphoric youth have a much higher chance of suicide. It is literally dangerous. Whether or not they are right with their feelings or justified in portraying themselves is secondary to that fact. There should be a lot more care in what we expose children to. 

 

 

4 hours ago, What a Tuel said:

 

May be true but the same could be said of putting a child through unnecessary trials in their social life. 

 

You guys act as if this is a concrete subject, as if you either have gender dysphoria or not. There is no middle ground with you in which someone may feel confused but ultimately affirm their born gender but in the meantime they have a significant pressure from the certain groups that this makes them "unique" and "special" and "heroic" and who wouldn't want to feel those things? Then how dumb do they feel when they ultimately change their mind? Maybe some cant bear to change their mind? 

 

 

Im not sure what you mean by communicable here. No i didnt say anything like that.

 

I have a transgender person in my family.   Being transgender is not something somebody chooses or learns, and "dysphoria" doesn't come close to describing what transgender people suffer because of the mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identification.  They know they are "miswired" even as very young children.  

 

4 hours ago, Steptide said:

I have zero issue with anything he said. I have catholic friends who have 9 kids while the wife is a stay at home mom and the dad works to support the family. This isn't terribly uncommon with Catholics. 2nd, he never said woman have to be home makers. The first thing he said was how many of them will have amazing careers, promotions etc. I can't believe we live in a world where celebrating the nuclear family is negative. I don't expect every woman to be stay at home moms and cook and clean all day, but my wife would kill for that opportunity. We both work full time and raise our family, but if she had the choice, she'd absolutely be at home. That doesn't mean all woman want that, but alot do. The fact that people are outraged over this really blows my mind 

 

This statement is bogus.  Maybe you have 1 Catholic "friend" who has 9 kids, but having 9 kids is just as uncommon among American born Catholics as it is among Americans of any other faith.   I was born Catholic during the baby boom, and families with 9 kids were exceedingly rare even then.

[boyst]

11 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Not if you’re the NFL and trying to get more women fans

The biggest selling jersey of the last week. 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

I am amazed how people groupthink and isolate themselves. Especially here.  This is a community of maybe 200-300  regularly active users. High users probably under 100. 

 

Of them they are folks who specifically sought out an online venue to hyper focus on their favorite sports team. These folks generally share traits I've noticed over the last few years. Many in some sort of tech field, for example. Many whom have limited experience playing organized sports, as well.

 

If we hyper focus on this issue like we do the Bills we end up forgetting there is a whole lot bigger world out there and forget the Bluffton University existence. Or the Iowa Wesleyan University. Or BYU.  Or Liberty.

 

A lot of people don't hold views like us and appreciate when someone like Butker is willing to do something many are afraid to in today's world: mention them.

[ExiledInIllinois]

There are about 1.7% intersex people in this country. The doctors don't even know who they are and assign gender by outward presentation...

 

...What does that equate to in a country of 350 million.  1-2 per 1,000 live births.

 

6 million?

 

Yeah... Let's marginalize 6 million people. /sarcasm

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, dorquemada said:

 

Funny 2 of the 3 women I spoke to on this topic agreed with Butker.  Perhaps not supisingly my wife and sister agreed with him. Both are middle age professionals with Masters level degrees who now feel like they were sold a bill of good about having it all.  The dissenter is my daughter who just entered the workforce as a professional.  Grrrl power seems to appeal more to women who haven't yet had to decide to what extent the want to balance career versus motherhood

I would say an N of 2 isn’t much.  Again, he can say what he wants and some may agree.  From the reaction it seems many don’t including the Order of sisters who sponsor the school, I believe.

 

No one is saying balancing career and family is easy.  What the women I have talked to about it object to is the idea that the only real identity women have are as wives and mothers.  
 

Tell you what really amazed me is his clarification where he said he’d like to go back to a time where women cared more about babies than thoughts.  That he is intimating that women should not have thoughts is simply absurd no matter your religious persuasion.

6 minutes ago, boyst said:

Of course. They're the minority of women who choose to speak out and vocalize on social media because it gives them validation and endorphins. 

 

I don't value social media opinions. They're worthless, like most people espousing them. 

Yet here you are on social media espousing yours.

[SoTier]

13 minutes ago, boyst said:

The biggest selling jersey of the last week. 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

I am amazed how people groupthink and isolate themselves. Especially here.  This is a community of maybe 200-300  regularly active users. High users probably under 100. 

 

Of them they are folks who specifically sought out an online venue to hyper focus on their favorite sports team. These folks generally share traits I've noticed over the last few years. Many in some sort of tech field, for example. Many whom have limited experience playing organized sports, as well.

 

If we hyper focus on this issue like we do the Bills we end up forgetting there is a whole lot bigger world out there and forget the Bluffton University existence. Or the Iowa Wesleyan University. Or BYU.  Or Liberty.

 

A lot of people don't hold views like us and appreciate when someone like Butker is willing to do something many are afraid to in today's world: mention them.

 

Do you also "appreciate" that some neo-Nazis and KKKers aren't afraid to "mention" their views?  

[boyst]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

I would say an N of 2 isn’t much.  Again, he can say what he wants and some may agree.  From the reaction it seems many don’t including the Order of sisters who sponsor the school, I believe.

 

No one is saying balancing career and family is easy.  What the women I have talked to about it object to is the idea that the only real identity women have are as wives and mothers.  
 

Tell you what really amazed me is his clarification where he said he’d like to go back to a time where women cared more about babies than thoughts.  That he is intimating that women should not have thoughts is simply absurd no matter your religious persuasion.

Yet here you are on social media espousing yours.

Of course, as I said we are like .25% of the population who discusses sports regularly on a message board.  I realize who I am here. Just a random dude laying in bed before bed, living in NC, with a mild headache, sore back, and too lazy to get up and get a drink of water wasting time looking at a 4" (that's big right?) screen to share some stupid opinions about something that in a few weeks will be a footnote of something everyone forgets in a year. But, right now, as my eyes are strained from a week of spreadsheets... Here I am!

1 minute ago, SoTier said:

 

Do you also "appreciate" that some neo-Nazis and KKKers aren't afraid to "mention" their views?  

I appreciate anyone and everyone saying their ridiculous ideas. From flat earthers and birds aren't real people to whatever is in DC these days.

 

I'll defend their right to publicly say whatever they want on their own time, in their own venue, and with their own spotlight.

 

I can simply turn it off, ignore it, laugh at it, or do whatever we all do to Tibs.

16 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

There are about 1.7% intersex people in this country. The doctors don't even know who they are and assign gender by outward presentation...

 

...What does that equate to in a country of 350 million.  1-2 per 1,000 live births.

 

6 million?

 

Yeah... Let's marginalize 6 million people. /sarcasm

I'd hate to see your browsing history. 🤣

[Steptide]

34 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

 

 

I have a transgender person in my family.   Being transgender is not something somebody chooses or learns, and "dysphoria" doesn't come close to describing what transgender people suffer because of the mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identification.  They know they are "miswired" even as very young children.  

 

 

This statement is bogus.  Maybe you have 1 Catholic "friend" who has 9 kids, but having 9 kids is just as uncommon among American born Catholics as it is among Americans of any other faith.   I was born Catholic during the baby boom, and families with 9 kids were exceedingly rare even then.

9 kids is rare yes, but catholic/Christian families with more kids than "normal" is very common. At the end of the day, for as many woman that want to have full time careers and be strong independent woman, there's probably just as many that wish they were home with their kids verses being at work 40 hrs a week. I have no issue with either, and have no issue with anyone encouraging either lifestyle. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

6 minutes ago, boyst said:

Of course, as I said we are like .25% of the population who discusses sports regularly on a message board.  I realize who I am here. Just a random dude laying in bed before bed, living in NC, with a mild headache, sore back, and too lazy to get up and get a drink of water wasting time looking at a 4" (that's big right?) screen to share some stupid opinions about something that in a few weeks will be a footnote of something everyone forgets in a year. But, right now, as my eyes are strained from a week of spreadsheets... Here I am!

I appreciate anyone and everyone saying their ridiculous ideas. From flat earthers and birds aren't real people to whatever is in DC these days.

 

I'll defend their right to publicly say whatever they want on their own time, in their own venue, and with their own spotlight.

 

I can simply turn it off, ignore it, laugh at it, or do whatever we all do to Tibs.

I'd hate to see your browsing history. 🤣

BraveBrowser, incognito. 😆 

 

I dump everything every few days.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 18 by ExiledInIllinois

[boyst]

Just now, ExiledInIllinois said:

BraveBrowser, incognito. 😆 

 

I dump everything ever few days. 

Monday:

2 hours spent browsing the combustion ratio of a '93 outboard Honda motor

15 minutes looking for the perfect temperature of a eastern swallow egg.

 

Tuesday

5 hours watching woodworking on YouTube

 

Wednesday 

5 minutes recovering .aol password for email. And then 10 minutes writing a letter to editor in all caps that begins "dear sir, I hope this finds you well but."

 

Thursday 

1 hour checking the weather forecast in Tibet and another 47 minutes going through their historical records of snow

 

Friday

10 hours on intersex people statistics. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 minute ago, boyst said:

Monday:

2 hours spent browsing the combustion ratio of a '93 outboard Honda motor

15 minutes looking for the perfect temperature of a eastern swallow egg.

 

Tuesday

5 hours watching woodworking on YouTube

 

Wednesday 

5 minutes recovering .aol password for email. And then 10 minutes writing a letter to editor in all caps that begins "dear sir, I hope this finds you well but."

 

Thursday 

1 hour checking the weather forecast in Tibet and another 47 minutes going through their historical records of snow

 

Friday

10 hours on intersex people statistics. 

4 Honda mower wheels and cordless DeWalt impact wrench on Amazon.com.  😆 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, ImpactCorey said:

 

My man.  You've posted this a few times now and I'm on the "Butker sucks" side but this is not a real quote.  That quote came from a satire website and is completely made up.

 

I just found that out, and therefore retract any comments made based on this.  Thanks for bringing that up.

[ImpactCorey]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

I just found that out, and therefore retract any comments made based on this.  Thanks for bringing that up.

No worries.  So much information flies around, it is hard to know what is real and what is not most times.

[Rampant Buffalo]

8 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

wrong

 

from your link:

 

...'Not the deadly sin sort of pride that has an entire month dedicated to it...'

 

 

 

Thank you for correcting an error I had made.

[Beck Water]

On 5/15/2024 at 12:40 PM, NORWOODS FOOT said:

Well shucks, I guess he’s just gonna have to confess and get that wiped off his ledger. As long as you feel really bad and tell someone everything is going to be alright!

 

No, you got to do penance too

 

 

For those unfamiliar this is from 1967.  Beginning discusses some of the changes in the Catholic church that Butker abhors, such as mass in the vernacular rather than in Latin.

Edited May 18 by Beck Water