What's Wrong With The Passing O?

[Maine-iac]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

Perfect example of not providing any context.

Sure, the TE was open for a 3 yard gain. But so was the player Allen threw it to…

 

Diggs had 2 steps on his defender and would have walked into the end zone with a better throw. Mahomes would have made the same decision - to throw to Diggs.

 

You want to criticize Allen for not stopping, setting his feet, and then throwing it? Sure, go for it. I’d agree with you. But the decision itself was perfectly fine. He threw to a guy wide open downfield that would have been a TD instead of a 3 yard gain.

 

If you want a QB that takes the 3 yard TE gain over the wide open receiver streaking downfield, then you want Tyrod Taylor back.

 

 

 

Except your pic is a guy across the field 50 yards down field and the guy I showed was open for far more than 3 yards and again it was 2nd and 7 and we are 7 yards from our own end zone.  It is part of the reason we aren't beating up on teams we should be beating up on because we give them short fields turning the ball over when we should be moving the chains.

Next two plays Josh misses open guys.  Granted he hits Davis on the scramble drill on the second play but it's part of what is making things harder.  We don't play on schedule getting the ball out and mistakes are eventually made keeping teams in the game with us.  I love that Allen makes the big plays but I would like to see more on schedule, getting the ball out, type throws.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Maine-iac said:

Defenses are all playing for the deeper passes and throwing in blitzes and the short passes are (and have been) there every single game and Josh turns them down over and over again.  I for the life of me can't understand why Cook doesn't get more simple swing passes (as an extension of the running game) for the easy and 5 or 6 yards. 

 

I don't think this is right at all. Allen hasn't had an issue choosing to throw the ball short this year. I think it's actually been his best year in that regard.

 

As for Cook's short passes, we're seeing how easy it is for defenses to take those away when they make it a point to do so. Early in the season Cook was getting ignored because defenses didn't think Allen would take those throws. Now that those throws are on film, defenses are assigning guys to specifically cover him so Allen has to go elsewhere. The one swing pass he threw to Cook yesterday was dropped for a 4 yard loss, and he threw it to him as a check down because Diggs was smothered by his 1v1 man coverage. It isn't as simple as just throwing Cook the ball and expecting magic to happen.

 

Honestly all of the recent issues on offense come back to Diggs. Defenses don't have to pick their poison by taking one coverage man and bracketing him on Diggs. They can leave Diggs in single coverage and still have enough players in coverage to take away everyone else including would-be check downs. Running a passing offense without a single reliable go-to guy is really tough sledding, made worse by the fact that we get zero explosion from our WR depth chart.

 

Edited January 1 by HappyDays

[co_springs_billsfan]

I've read through about 5 pages of this and want to share my thought, hopefully I'm not repeating something on the following 8 pages. 

 

I think there are lots of good problems being pointed out as the reason for the O's struggles. But I think it is a "moving" problem.  

 

Is it Diggs is getting old/injured?  Maybe, but he still had more than a step on the missed bomb yesterday, and had a key 11 yard catch late on 3rd and 8 against the Chargers.

 

Is it the O-line?  Sometimes they are excellent and other times we have free rushers coming at Allen.  

 

Allen off platform/too aggressive?  Sometimes.  But we seem to have a lot of untimely drops on perfectly thrown balls also that derail drives.

 

Is it the play calling?  We've seen good and then some not as good. Time will tell if Joe Brady can zig to the defenses' zag, but it feels like we're in a better spot than with Dorsey. 

 

I think some of this is also Josh/Brady not being ready for the rock/paper/scissors at times of the defensive play calls (hot routes available against blitz, don't get happy feet when there's a spy and no pressure but DO scramble when there's not a spy, etc.)

 

Then there are untimely penalties that derail drives, at times legit and at times seeming ticky tack/wrong (maybe that's my bills-colored glasses).

 

You put it all together and I still believe the offense is capable of putting it all together and looking unstoppable with the pieces we have (oh how I miss the days of our "no punt" streak), but there seems to always be something killing a drive, but that something shifts from drive to drive.  If we just start executing with all 11 on each play things would look so much better.  Are we missing practice time with Josh's injury/load management? Are we lacking a sense of urgency?  Is the O coordinator change in mid-season causing growing pains?

 

TLDR: It's not one thing, it's a failure of all 11 to execute consistently.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Rockinon said:

Allen can play the short passing game, but it just seems he has a hard time getting into a rhythm.

 

Well yeah. Our personnel does not separate quickly... Davis is playing almost 100% of snaps and he is a terrible fit for a rhythm and timing offense. Diggs can't separate quickly right now like we're used to. Defenses are putting guys over Cook to take away those quick passes. Kincaid and Shakir to my eyes appear to be doing a good job of finding holes in zone coverage and making themselves available to Allen, but they are not typically separating quickly in man coverage.

 

Meanwhile every time a defense blitzes us it feels like there are 3 free rushers instead of just 1. Good luck running a timing offense against that... The best possible play in that scenario is chucking the ball deep to a 1v1 WR that you trust to locate the ball and come down with it or draw DPI but we don't have anybody that comes close to fitting that description.

 

All of the passing game woes come down to the weapons... It really is that simple. With an honorable mention to the OL who for several years now have struggled with protection schemes against blitzes and stunts. No part of this passing offense is playing in rhythm right now.

 

Edited January 1 by HappyDays

[Einstein]

22 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

Except your pic is a guy across the field 50 yards down field

 

Your argument was that Josh is not throwing to open guys.

 

I asked you for examples.

 

You provided an example where he threw to a wide open guy. You’re moving the goalposts.

 

And that throw was one that Josh Allen can absolutely make as long as he sets his feet and throws with fundamentals. Heck, he almost made it while on the run!

 

22 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

and the guy I showed was open for far more than 3 yards

 

If you think these 2 defenders are letting him get more than 3 or 4 yards, well, I guess you don’t understand the speed of NFL defenders.

 

He may have struggled to get much past the LOS.

 

 

I’m ready for more examples.

 

.

Edited January 1 by Einstein

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Well yeah. Our personnel does not separate quickly... Davis is playing almost 100% of snaps and he is a terrible fit for a rhythm and timing offense. Diggs can't separate quickly right now like we're used to. Defenses are putting guys over Cook to take away those quick passes. Kincaid and Shakir to my eyes appear to be doing a good job of finding holes in zone coverage and making themselves available to Allen, but they are not typically separating quickly in man coverage.

 

Meanwhile every time a defense blitzes us it feels like there are 3 free rushers instead of just 1. Good luck running a timing offense against that... The best possible play in that scenario is chucking the ball deep to a 1v1 WR that you trust to locate the ball and come down with it or draw DPI but we don't have anybody that comes close to fitting the description.

 

All of the passing game woes come down to the weapons... It really is that simple. With an honorable mention to the OL who for several years now have struggled with protection schemes against blitzes and stunts. No part of this passing offense is playing in rhythm right now.

 

I feel like the last 3 out of 4 games great defense team's. Chiefs are great in coverage, Cowboys are the pass rush also coverage, Patriots I feel like is a great defense, pass rush stopping the run feel like goos in pass coverage. Those three team's can cover the wr great.

Edited January 1 by Buffalo Bills Fan

[Jrb1979]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

 

I feel like the last 3 out of 4 games great defense team's. Chiefs are great in coverage, Cowboys are the pass rush also coverage, Patriots I feel like is a great defense. Those three team's can cover the wr great. Patriots great at the run and pass rush and feel like can cover wrs well. 

That doesn't bode well for the playoffs when they play more of the same. 

[Einstein]

9 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

That doesn't bode well for the playoffs when they play more of the same. 

 

Considering we won all 3 of the games he mentioned?

[Jrb1979]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

Considering we won all 3 of the games he mentioned?

Two of which were against teams with bad offenses. 

[Maine-iac]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't think this is right at all. Allen hasn't had an issue choosing to throw the ball short this year. I think it's actually been his best year in that regard.

 

As for Cook's short passes, we're seeing how easy it is for defenses to take those away when they make it a point to do so. Early in the season Cook was getting ignored because defenses didn't think Allen would take those throws. Now that those throws are on film defenses are assigning guys to specifically cover him so Allen has to go elsewhere. The one swing pass he threw to Cook yesterday was dropped for a 4 yard loss, and he threw it to him as a check down because Diggs was smothered by his 1v1 man coverage. It isn't as simple as just throwing Cook the ball and expecting magic to happen.

 

Honestly all of the recent issues on offense come back to Diggs. Defenses don't have to pick their poison by taking one coverage man and bracketing him on Diggs. They can leave Diggs in single coverage and still have enough players in coverage to take away everyone else including would-be check downs. Running a passing offense without a single reliable go-to guy is really tough sledding, made worse by the fact that we get zero explosion from our WR depth chart.

You are right in that defenses have to play Cook more lately but that's because he had 125 yards and 2 TD's just a couple weeks ago and Cook in the passing game is one of the reasons we won the Chiefs game.  You are also right that not having a reliable go to guy hurts.  As much as I do think Allen needs to speed up getting the ball out and take the easy stuff more often I'm not oblivious to the fact that guys are dropping a number of those throws.  Short throws that move the sticks are definitely less effective if guys aren't catching the short throws.  It's been hard to watch.  Allen will tattoo the TE and it skips off his hands (still he should catch it).  Then Allen throws an easy one to a back for a would be first down and they drop it.  Then they call a WR screen and it get's blown up 3 yards behind the line of scrimmage.  

[Locomark]

My opinion is the Bills are playing fairly vanilla on purpose. Save your best calls for the big games that begin this week. Thats what Miami has not done. They run those same one read plays over and over. Watching them yesterday I could predict most of their calls by alignment. 

[Maine-iac]

39 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Your argument was that Josh is not throwing to open guys.

 

I asked you for examples.

 

You provided an example where he threw to a wide open guy. You’re moving the goalposts.

 

And that throw was one that Josh Allen can absolutely make as long as he sets his feet and throws with fundamentals. Heck, he almost made it while on the run!

 

 

If you think these 2 defenders are letting him get more than 3 or 4 yards, well, I guess you don’t understand the speed of NFL defenders.

 

He may have struggled to get much past the LOS.

 

 

I’m ready for more examples.

 

.

That is before Allen even bails the pocket.  The outside corner headed down field.  I guess it's the difference between 3rd and short vs the Chargers ball at mid field.  This is as Allen is throwing the ball.  The TE is going to get some yards here.  Hell if Allen just runs that way the TE blocks and it's probably a first down.

Edited January 1 by Maine-iac

[Rockinon]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Well yeah. Our personnel does not separate quickly... Davis is playing almost 100% of snaps and he is a terrible fit for a rhythm and timing offense. Diggs can't separate quickly right now like we're used to. Defenses are putting guys over Cook to take away those quick passes. Kincaid and Shakir to my eyes appear to be doing a good job of finding holes in zone coverage and making themselves available to Allen, but they are not typically separating quickly in man coverage.

 

Meanwhile every time a defense blitzes us it feels like there are 3 free rushers instead of just 1. Good luck running a timing offense against that... The best possible play in that scenario is chucking the ball deep to a 1v1 WR that you trust to locate the ball and come down with it or draw DPI but we don't have anybody that comes close to fitting that description.

 

All of the passing game woes come down to the weapons... It really is that simple. With an honorable mention to the OL who for several years now have struggled with protection schemes against blitzes and stunts. No part of this passing offense is playing in rhythm right now.

 

Good observations. There were a couple of deep shots against NE. Josh just missed. Diggs actually had a step on one of them but it was overthrown. Maybe weapons, but I find it hard to believe that we still can't do it with who we have. How many times do we have someone open short and Josh chooses the deeper route even when coverage is tight there? Maybe it's just a matter of not being able to work his way through progressions before pressure gets there.  I wonder what is going through Josh's head sometimes. Is he going through his progressions looking deep first and then only throwing short when he has absolutely no other choice? Sometimes it seems the only time he immediately gets rid of the ball is when it's one of those ridiculous screens that get blown up behind the LoS. 

 

Sometimes, I think Josh just needs to start throwing early and often just to get into a rhythm sooner.

[Rockinon]

1 hour ago, Maine-iac said:

You are right in that defenses have to play Cook more lately but that's because he had 125 yards and 2 TD's just a couple weeks ago and Cook in the passing game is one of the reasons we won the Chiefs game.  You are also right that not having a reliable go to guy hurts.  As much as I do think Allen needs to speed up getting the ball out and take the easy stuff more often I'm not oblivious to the fact that guys are dropping a number of those throws.  Short throws that move the sticks are definitely less effective if guys aren't catching the short throws.  It's been hard to watch.  Allen will tattoo the TE and it skips off his hands (still he should catch it).  Then Allen throws an easy one to a back for a would be first down and they drop it.  Then they call a WR screen and it get's blown up 3 yards behind the line of scrimmage.  

I get the frustration. To me it seems they need some of those one read plays in the offense like Miami does, just to get things rolling. Something besides running on 1st down so much.

1 hour ago, Locomark said:

My opinion is the Bills are playing fairly vanilla on purpose. Save your best calls for the big games that begin this week. Thats what Miami has not done. They run those same one read plays over and over. Watching them yesterday I could predict most of their calls by alignment. 

I don't....haha. Wouldn't that be nice if they were sandbagging.

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, Locomark said:

My opinion is the Bills are playing fairly vanilla on purpose. Save your best calls for the big games that begin this week. Thats what Miami has not done. They run those same one read plays over and over. Watching them yesterday I could predict most of their calls by alignment. 

That would be unusual restraint, given that every game since the Philly loss has been essentially a playoff game. I hope there are more tricks in the bag, but the deficiencies of the WR room are not going to be fixed this year, though if injury is playing a role in Diggs current woes, one hopes he heals enough to become closer to his previous norm.

[Maine-iac]

3 minutes ago, Rockinon said:

I get the frustration. To me it seems they need some of those one read plays in the offense like Miami does, just to get things rolling. Something besides running on 1st down so much.

It's just the way I watch football, any game, when the play starts I count to three and I start saying "get rid of the ball".  Not much good happens when you hold the ball for a long time after that.  Allen has made a lot of plays after I had already yelled at the TV "get rid of the ball".   I don't think my natural instincts are ever going to change though.  Once the ball is snapped, in an efficient offense, for the most part the ball should be out in 3 seconds.  I mean your occasional deep shot and if they only rush 3 or something and you can work the coverage.  It shouldn't be your typical offense to be running around and holding the ball every play.  Although I don't think I'm saying anything everyone doesn't already know.  A lot of ideas about the problems and unfortunately it's problem a little bit of everything.

[henry jones]

Need to use sprint/roll out passing and screen passes to RB’s more to slow down the D- line from pinning their ears back.

[henry jones]

1 hour ago, Locomark said:

My opinion is the Bills are playing fairly vanilla on purpose. Save your best calls for the big games that begin this week. Thats what Miami has not done. They run those same one read plays over and over. Watching them yesterday I could predict most of their calls by alignment. 

Agree to a point.  They are relatively predictable.  Receivers are just not getting open.  Whether that’s a play calling issue or lack of ability on receivers or both.  I mean, there are many times in a game where opposing receivers are open by a good ten yards and we never seem to have that.  Could also be JA not seeing the field well enough too and/or lack of time in the pocket.  Regardless, our offense will need to score a bunch to beat Miami and with how we’ve been playing, I don’t see that happening.

[zow2]

Why has Jordan Love looked like a better passer than Allen over the past 2 months. That’s messed up.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Maine-iac said:

You are also right that not having a reliable go to guy hurts.

 

I just watched all-22 of the first two drives of this game and my first takeaway is that we need to start designing the reads to account for the fact that Diggs is no longer a reliable 1v1 option.

 

So first passing play of the game is blown up by McGovern and Torrence. Allen comes out of play action, literally everybody is going to be open but he already has pressure in his face by two interior rushers and the play is DOA.

 

2nd passing play - Allen immediately looks at Diggs running a whip route 1v1 to the short right side of the field. Diggs never comes close to separating. In the past this has been an automatic completion. By the time Allen moves to his next read the OL has been beat and he launches a very low percentage pass to Kincaid downfield just to get rid of the ball. On the left side of the field Shakir actually beats his man on a deep out route. It's a beautiful route. But Allen started with Diggs on the other side (presumably because this is the built in #1 matchup against man coverage) and that was that.

 

3rd play - This is right after our INT so we have the ball inside the 20. Diggs runs a post corner to the left. Allen starts by checking middle field safety who runs right to cover Kincaid. After confirming Diggs is now in single coverage he stares him down but once again Diggs never comes close to separating so Allen ends up throwing the ball away as pressure gets there (not the OL's fault - it's a 6 man blitz). If Allen had looked to replace the blitz with the throw he would have hit Shakir running a quick slant off the line for probably a 6 or 7 yard gain. But apparently his read is automatically look at Diggs if Diggs is in 1v1 coverage.

 

The 4th passing play is Cook dropping the screen on 3rd down.

 

I don't have time for more right now, but my big takeaway is they need to remove Diggs 1v1 in man coverage as an automatic read. Diggs just isn't that guy right now.