Outlook on McDermott if we turn it around

[GerstAusGosheim]

On 11/20/2023 at 11:03 AM, Success said:

Not sure if anyone has noticed - but McDermott calls a pretty good defense.  

 

 

Leslie called a very good defense. Sean needs to do better than that to justify the move and that hasn't happened yet.

 

Letting Mac Jones march 75 yards for a game winning TD comes to mind. Zero blitz x2. 12 men. That's not good coaching no matter how you look at it.

 

 

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

McD making the playoffs will have zero impact on my opinion of him. We already know that he can make the playoffs, and we also know that he struggles once he gets there. The latter is the part that concerns me. What happens from September-January is immaterial because I expect the Bills to make the playoffs every year. That's table stakes. Can he win a Super Bowl? I previously said it was only possible if Mahomes, Burrow and Hurts went down. Still 2 to go.

Can I ask a question?

 

what separates a coach like Harbaugh from a coach like McD? Besides winning a Super Bowl a decade ago (and never sniffing another one).

[BullBuchanan]

12 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Can I ask a question?

 

what separates a coach like Harbaugh from a coach like McD? Besides winning a Super Bowl a decade ago (and never sniffing another one).

What separates them between the most important achievement of their career? Probably the belief that Harbaugh will get his second before McD gets his first.

He's not exactly my #1 coach or anything, but he's definitely a step above McDermott on gameday. Harbaugh has also had to fight uphill with lackluster offensive units most of his career. MCDermott on the other hand has had tons of offensive talent, but just squandered it.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, BullBuchanan said:

What separates them between the most important achievement of their career? Probably the belief that Harbaugh will get his second before McD gets his first.

He's not exactly my #1 coach or anything, but he's definitely a step above McDermott on gameday. Harbaugh has also had to fight uphill with lackluster offensive units most of his career. MCDermott on the other hand has had tons of offensive talent, but just squandered it.

Why do you think Harbaugh will get his second first? Because he won 1 a decade ago?

 

I ask because generally, Harbaugh is considered a good coach. He has had his fair share of down seasons and is given a lot of grace for one magical year a decade ago.

Since that year, he has made the playoffs 5/10 seasons. He has 2 playoff wins to 5 playoff losses. He had Joe Flacco, who was a franchise QB if not an elite one. He has Lamar Jackson now, a former MVP who is at the very least considered very talented in todays league.  And despite all of that, he has had MULTIPLE rough YEARS. Missed the postseason 4/5 seasons after the SB win. Missed the postseason 2 years ago.  Has one playoff win since 2015. 
 

I guess my question is, do you think Haurbaugh should’ve been fired at any point between now and 2012? Or do you think that he basically gets the job for life because of that Super Bowl win and outside of an egregious basement dwelling stretch, he’s good enough to keep around? 

[BullBuchanan]

28 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Why do you think Harbaugh will get his second first? Because he won 1 a decade ago?

 

I ask because generally, Harbaugh is considered a good coach. He has had his fair share of down seasons and is given a lot of grace for one magical year a decade ago.

Since that year, he has made the playoffs 5/10 seasons. He has 2 playoff wins to 5 playoff losses. He had Joe Flacco, who was a franchise QB if not an elite one. He has Lamar Jackson now, a former MVP who is at the very least considered very talented in todays league.  And despite all of that, he has had MULTIPLE rough YEARS. Missed the postseason 4/5 seasons after the SB win. Missed the postseason 2 years ago.  Has one playoff win since 2015. 
 

I guess my question is, do you think Haurbaugh should’ve been fired at any point between now and 2012? Or do you think that he basically gets the job for life because of that Super Bowl win and outside of an egregious basement dwelling stretch, he’s good enough to keep around? 

I don't think you remember who Joe Flacco was. He was elite for a half of one year, which is when he won the Super Bowl. After starting out poorly, we went on a tear to end the season and was the hottest player of the playoffs. He had one other good year in 2016 but otherwise was never near that level again. He had a very Matt Shaub-esque career, imo.

As for the current state of things, the ravens are playing well and appear to be the best team in football right now. You could have made a case for firing Harbaugh during the Flacco slump years, but since Lamar got there he has a COTY award and 4 out of 5 years has a playoff appearance (soon to be 5/6), despite having a QB who's missed roughly a a quarter of each played season due to injury.

Winning a Super Bowl gets you a lot of rope, but it doesn't mean you can't hang yourself with it. Again, I don't think Harbaugh is a the top of top coaches, but like Tomlin I think he's markedly better than McDermott. I'll never prefer a Defensive coach, unless your name is Bill Belichick, in an offensive league though. Even then, maybe his time has come too.

Edited November 22, 2023 by BullBuchanan

[billsfan89]

Let’s say this team wins 10 games and wins a playoff game but gets bounced in the divisional round. That’s a pretty decent season for a team that was 5-5 on the surface but the out look to me doesn’t change drastically. It’s no different than if the team goes 9-8 and misses the playoffs.

 

McD comes back for 2024 and gets another crack but while I wouldn’t say his seat is hot just yet it certainly is warming up. If in 2024 there is similar playoff struggles I think then the seat is red hot in 2025 and it’s possibly time to move on if there is another year of missing a deep playoff run.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Opinion doesn't change unless he makes it to the SuperBowl. I have never had faith in the guy that played for a tie in OT when they needed a win and the guy that thought Peterman could play in the NFL. 

 

Outcome doesn't change no matter what. He will be the coach in 2024. 

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

I don't think you remember who Joe Flacco was. He was elite for a half of one year, which is when he won the Super Bowl. After starting out poorly, we went on a tear to end the season and was the hottest player of the playoffs. He had one other good year in 2016 but otherwise was never near that level again. He had a very Matt Shaub-esque career, imo.

As for the current state of things, the ravens are playing well and appear to be the best team in football right now. You could have made a case for firing Harbaugh during the Flacco slump years, but since Lamar got there he has a COTY award and 4 out of 5 years has a playoff appearance (soon to be 5/6), despite having a QB who's missed roughly a a quarter of each played season due to injury.

Winning a Super Bowl gets you a lot of rope, but it doesn't mean you can't hang yourself with it. Again, I don't think Harbaugh is a the top of top coaches, but like Tomlin I think he's markedly better than McDermott. I'll never prefer a Defensive coach, unless your name is Bill Belichick, in an offensive league though. Even then, maybe his time has come too.

How quickly the bar changes to "they've made the playoffs a couple times" lol.

 

That's kinda the point.

 

Here we are discussing firing an HC who is potentially going to miss the playoffs for the first time in 5 seasons, and propping up another coach (who folks consider a pretty good HC) for making the playoffs 4 times in the last 8 years with ONE playoff win in that span.

 

Pretty funny.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by FireChans

[Chaos]

57 minutes ago, FireChans said:

How quickly the bar changes to "they've made the playoffs a couple times" lol.

 

That's kinda the point.

 

Here we are discussing firing an HC who is potentially going to miss the playoffs for the first time in 5 seasons, and propping up another coach (who folks consider a pretty good HC) for making the playoffs 4 times in the last 8 years with ONE playoff win in that span.

 

Pretty funny.

 

 

Tomlin and Harbaugh are given the benefit of the doubt by their organizations because they have won super bowls. Doug Pederson will happily explain that sometimes even that is not enough. Ask yourself, who helped their team more, Steelers and Ravens hanging on to their coaches indefinitely, or the Eagles making a change. I am sure different people will answer that question differently, just pointing out the Bills are hardly facing a unique decision. 

[FireChans]

11 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Tomlin and Harbaugh are given the benefit of the doubt by their organizations because they have won super bowls. Doug Pederson will happily explain that sometimes even that is not enough. Ask yourself, who helped their team more, Steelers and Ravens hanging on to their coaches indefinitely, or the Eagles making a change. I am sure different people will answer that question differently, just pointing out the Bills are hardly facing a unique decision. 

That’s what I said. In your opinion, basically, they get gigantic leashes because they won a Super Bowl 10 or 15 years ago.

 

That’s fair if you think that. I would just let you know that if McD pulls off an SB, you better be okay with making him coach for life because we’ll be there too.

 

I personally don’t think that though. I don’t think the Steelers are waxing poetically about that Super Bowl in 2009. I think they think Tomlin is a good coach and until he proves otherwise in the form of a couple disastrous seasons, he stays.

Edited November 22, 2023 by FireChans

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

14 minutes ago, FireChans said:

That’s what I said. In your opinion, basically, they get gigantic leashes because they won a Super Bowl 10 or 15 years ago.

 

That’s fair if you think that. I would just let you know that if McD pulls off an SB, you better be okay with making him coach for life because we’ll be there too.

 

 

Actually, as Chaos pointed out he could be fired just like Pederson was.  You don’t have to hold onto a coach even if they win a Super Bowl. 
 

But yes, I would be fine with holding onto McDermott far past his sell by date if he brings us a Super Bowl this year. 

[Toyo321]

It is basically a coin flip,   Heads you win, tails you lose.  He must go to the AFCCG, and win, no other result will be acceptable, IMO.  That is Heads.

 

If we get smoked by Philly, KC, Dallas and Miami and we miss the playoffs,  that is tails.  Tails means he needs to go, period.  Do not let the door hit your backside when your going out the door.

 

He really is the weakest coach on the listed teams above.  All these other coaches have more to offer.  McDaniel's is on par with him if not a little better than him right now.

 

Its a tough call but I guarantee his past mistakes will come back and haunt him and this team before this year is over.

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Toyo321

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Actually, as Chaos pointed out he could be fired just like Pederson was.  You don’t have to hold onto a coach even if they win a Super Bowl. 
 

But yes, I would be fine with holding onto McDermott far past his sell by date if he brings us a Super Bowl this year. 

He could be. That’s pretty rare though, no?

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

He could be. That’s pretty rare though, no?

Of course it is. 
 

there are not a lot of coaches with multiple Super Bowl rings so it is much more common to hold on to them past their sell by dates. 
 

not sure if the Eagles are on to something or not. We will see how long Sirianni lasts. 

[Yockopondowsk]

He ended the drought. He hired Beane. We’ve made the playoffs consistently. He’ll coach out his contract, and get another one. The guy isn’t going anywhere.  

[FireChans]

21 minutes ago, Toyo321 said:

It is basically a coin flip,   Heads you win, tails you lose.  He must go to the AFCCG, and win, no other result will be acceptable, IMO.  That is Heads.

 

If we get smoked by Philly, KC, Dallas and Miami and we miss the playoffs,  that is tails.  Tails means he needs to go, period.  Do not let the door hit your backside when your going out the door.

 

He really is the weakest coach on the listed teams above.  All these other coaches have more to offer.  McDaniel's is on par with him if not a little better than him right now.

 

Its a tough call but I guarantee his past mistakes will come back and haunt him and this team before this year is over.

 

This analogy is not good. Really not like a coin flip at all.

[BullBuchanan]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

How quickly the bar changes to "they've made the playoffs a couple times" lol.

 

That's kinda the point.

 

Here we are discussing firing an HC who is potentially going to miss the playoffs for the first time in 5 seasons, and propping up another coach (who folks consider a pretty good HC) for making the playoffs 4 times in the last 8 years with ONE playoff win in that span.

 

Pretty funny.

 

 

You're conveniently leaving out the part where he's a Super Bowl champion. He has the track record and the DNA to replicate it at any time. That's while he's still there. He's succeeded without top tier talent ont he offensive side of the ball.

McDermott has failed given every opportunity. Form my perspective he doesn't have the DNA. He's already shown us his peak. They aren't remotely similar situations, even when you try to time slice it in the best possible way to support a different narrative. It's pretty clear to me, and their teams, that Harbaugh and Tomlin aren't holding their teams back from winning another Super Bowl, but I'm convinced that McDermott is.

Edited November 23, 2023 by BullBuchanan

[BullBuchanan]

On 11/21/2023 at 10:11 AM, GerstAusGosheim said:

Remember when the O only scored 10 points in the playoffs against Cincinnati – yet, everyone blamed Leslie?

 

If this team continues to look significantly better under Brady, then one could argue Sean cost us a chance at the last two Super Bowls. 

 

 

 

 

 

I blamed Leslie because the Bengals were down 3 starting offensive lineman and not only did we get 0 pass rush (1 sack for 2 yards - coverage sack if memory serves), but we didn't even scheme for it. Leslie never schemed to his opponents weaknesses and never exploited them in game. It was just nickel tampa-2 all day every day.

 

Now, is it McDermott that's actually the cause behind that? Maybe, because we do the same ***** on offense. I've routinely watched us not exploit defensive injuries or inefficiencies year after year go back to the beginning of his tenure.

[DapperCam]

One reason it is hard to evaluate McDermott and just point to the playoffs as good enough is that he’s had a top 3 QB in the league the past 3 seasons.

 

If you have a top 3 QB in the league that is getting All Pro votes, then it would be a massive failure to miss the playoffs.

Edited November 23, 2023 by DapperCam

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

You're conveniently leaving out the part where he's a Super Bowl champion. He has the track record and the DNA to replicate it at any time. That's while he's still there. He's succeeded without top tier talent ont he offensive side of the ball.

McDermott has failed given every opportunity. Form my perspective he doesn't have the DNA. He's already shown us his peak. They aren't remotely similar situations, even when you try to time slice it in the best possible way to support a different narrative. It's pretty clear to me, and their teams, that Harbaugh and Tomlin aren't holding their teams back from winning another Super Bowl, but I'm convinced that McDermott is.

Yes yes, he has that Super Bowl “DNA” which has been clearly expressed with two playoff wins in a decade. Just a born playoff and championship deliverer. 

 

the list of coaches who won 1 Super Bowl and never won again is A LOT higher than coaches who have won multiple.

 

I love this.

 

 

2 hours ago, DapperCam said:

One reason it is hard to evaluate McDermott and just point to the playoffs as good enough is that he’s had a top 3 QB in the league the past 3 seasons.

 

If you have a top 3 QB in the league that is getting All Pro votes, then it would be a massive failure to miss the playoffs.

Sean Payton did it three years in a row with one of the greatest QB’s of all time.

 

Tomlin missed the playoffs 4 years with Big Ben. 
 

Pete Carrol missed the playoffs twice with Russell Wilson.

 

Josh Allen isn’t Tom Brady and McDermott isn’t Bill Belichick. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by FireChans