X’s and O’s Thread

[HoofHearted]

Just wanted to throw this out there as an outlet for some of you guys to get answers on scheme, specific plays, coaching, etc.

 

What I envision this thread being is a place where you guys can come ask questions and I can help provide answers all in one place instead of a lot of answers being buried 12 pages deep in sporadic threads every week. I’ll try my best to get to everyone’s questions as quickly as I can.

 

What I do not want this thread to devolve into is a gossip/fire whoever/hot take of the week type of deal.

 

I want this to be specifically about learning more about the game so if you’ve got something else, respectfully, take it to another thread. Thanks!

 

Fire away!

[finn]

I always appreciate your expert, dispassionate posts. Here's a question: What do you think Brady should do to turn this thing around, given that he has to pretty much work with the same playbook--and given that the Bills are about to run the gauntlet of some of the best defenses in the league, starting with the Jets, who seem to have figured them out? 

[boyst]

i don't know that it is a question but i am amazed at the inability of most of the NFL to incorrectly place value on prospective linebackers in the league. college prospects never seem to really have the pizzazz as they did just 10-15 years ago, and especially as they did 20-25 years ago or more. i don't know of a position more poorly graded for defensive prospects coming out of college than this right now.

[WideNine]

9 hours ago, finn said:

I always appreciate your expert, dispassionate posts. Here's a question: What do you think Brady should do to turn this thing around, given that he has to pretty much work with the same playbook--and given that the Bills are about to run the gauntlet of some of the best defenses in the league, starting with the Jets, who seem to have figured them out? 

 

This is my question too, but mentally I have been leaning towards first how does he get the offense better prepared to limit the mistakes?

 

A lot of analysis this year pointing to mental lapses by our WRs. Have wondered how the loss of Chad Hall would affect that unit and why Hall left the organization for what amounted to a lateral coaching move with the Jaguars?

 

Xs & Os:

That perhaps leads to think about what types of plays do the Bills execute well on Offense?

 

Of those which have a chance for some success against the defensive looks the Jets tend to counter with?

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by WideNine

[EasternOHBillsFan]

So why do we see some teams use the slant route to take advantage of holes in the defense and favorable matchups while others don't use slant routes at all? What are the negatives of using them?

Edited November 16, 2023 by EasternOHBillsFan

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, boyst said:

i don't know that it is a question but i am amazed at the inability of most of the NFL to incorrectly place value on prospective linebackers in the league. college prospects never seem to really have the pizzazz as they did just 10-15 years ago, and especially as they did 20-25 years ago or more. i don't know of a position more poorly graded for defensive prospects coming out of college than this right now.

 

I don't want to speak for @HoofHearted and he will no doubt have his own take but to the way college defenses use linebackers these days and the way NFL teams use them are quite different. So many college linebackers seem to project as sub package players only at the next level because they are great athletes but they lack some instincts. And the ones that don't that are genuine 3 down pro style 'backers in college tend to find they are challenged atheltically in the pros - see Jack Campbell who is currently allowing a passer rating of 135 when targeted in the NFL. 

[34-78-83]

Do you think that Brady will reduce the number of option routes built into pass plays in the current Bills scheme in order to reduce the amount of thinking necessary (by both WR and QB) and to somewhat alleviate how much "perfect execution" will be required to have successful outcomes?

[mrags]

All I know is this. With Dorsey done, I truly hope we don’t see 2 and sometimes 3 receivers all within 5-10 yards of each other downfield. Bumping into each other. Tripping over each other. Telegraphing to the defense that you only need to cover one half of the field. 
 

biggest issue since Dorsey took over IMO. With Daboll and other good offenses I see all over the league. You have guys that are just wide open. Good players. Bad players. Fast players. Slow players. It’s route/play design and something I thought Dorsey was terrible at. Hopefully Brady sees this. Or hopefully Josh and Steff and some of the other guys can point it out and have it changed. 

[HoofHearted]

9 hours ago, finn said:

I always appreciate your expert, dispassionate posts. Here's a question: What do you think Brady should do to turn this thing around, given that he has to pretty much work with the same playbook--and given that the Bills are about to run the gauntlet of some of the best defenses in the league, starting with the Jets, who seem to have figured them out? 

The biggest and most important thing (and probably the tallest task) is to rebuild the confidence in that offensive room. He has to command the room from the jump, show a clear direction for where he wants to take things, and be able to provide answers when questions ultimately arise. If he can’t do that then it doesn’t matter what we do as far as scheme is concerned.

7 hours ago, boyst said:

i don't know that it is a question but i am amazed at the inability of most of the NFL to incorrectly place value on prospective linebackers in the league. college prospects never seem to really have the pizzazz as they did just 10-15 years ago, and especially as they did 20-25 years ago or more. i don't know of a position more poorly graded for defensive prospects coming out of college than this right now.

Can you provide more detail? Are you speaking of teams struggling to find competent players or just that they are harder to project to the next level now?

[HoofHearted]

1 hour ago, WideNine said:

 

This is my question too, but mentally I have been leaning towards first how does he get the offense better prepared to limit the mistakes?

 

A lot of analysis this year pointing to mental lapses by our WRs. Have wondered how the loss of Chad Hall would affect that unit and why Hall left the organization for what amounted to a lateral coaching move with the Jaguars?

 

Xs & Os:

That perhaps leads to think about what types of plays do the Bills execute well on Offense?

 

Of those which have a chance for some success against the defensive looks the Jets tend to counter with?

 

 

 

We HAVE to win the LoS. Specifically, early on we’ll need to be able to run the ball off tackle. Against the Jets I’d expect some type of Buck or Pin & Pull schemes to accomplish this. I don’t think we’d have a chance to be successful just trying to run outside zone. We also need to be able to attack the perimeter in the pass game early on using flat screens and RPOs. Anything to get the interior of their DL moving sideline to sideline and wear them down. If we can successfully do that it opens up our play action game off of that action which should allow Kincaid to get going. Jets play like us defensively - they’re not going to give up the deep ball and they’re good at playing tight underneath. Change of strength motions and shifts would be big to get them having to communicate and make checks right before the snap but with a short week I’m not sure how much of that to expect because I have no clue how much of that is currently built in to the system. We need to make a conscious effort to motion Diggs away from Sauce as much as we can to get him going. Still think Deep Choice will be a big part of what we do.

1 hour ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

So why do we see some teams use the slant route to take advantage of holes in the defense and favorable matchups while others don't use slant routes at all? What are the negatives of using them?

The easy answer is different systems specialize in different things, but on top of that how a defense is playing you will dictate what concepts you want to use to attack teams. Pros and cons depend on how the defense is playing you.

[HoofHearted]

59 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

Do you think that Brady will reduce the number of option routes built into pass plays in the current Bills scheme in order to reduce the amount of thinking necessary (by both WR and QB) and to somewhat alleviate how much "perfect execution" will be required to have successful outcomes?

Deep Choice will likely still be a big part of this offense. He ran a bunch of it while at LSU. What may happen is he limits the volume of choice plays they have and instead focus on just a few.

48 minutes ago, mrags said:

All I know is this. With Dorsey done, I truly hope we don’t see 2 and sometimes 3 receivers all within 5-10 yards of each other downfield. Bumping into each other. Tripping over each other. Telegraphing to the defense that you only need to cover one half of the field. 
 

biggest issue since Dorsey took over IMO. With Daboll and other good offenses I see all over the league. You have guys that are just wide open. Good players. Bad players. Fast players. Slow players. It’s route/play design and something I thought Dorsey was terrible at. Hopefully Brady sees this. Or hopefully Josh and Steff and some of the other guys can point it out and have it changed. 

Really the only times we saw that was on Mesh concepts (which that’s part of the design of the play) or on scramble drills.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, WideNine said:

 

This is my question too, but mentally I have been leaning towards first how does he get the offense better prepared to limit the mistakes?

 

A lot of analysis this year pointing to mental lapses by our WRs. Have wondered how the loss of Chad Hall would affect that unit and why Hall left the organization for what amounted to a lateral coaching move with the Jaguars?

 

Xs & Os:

That perhaps leads to think about what types of plays do the Bills execute well on Offense?

 

Of those which have a chance for some success against the defensive looks the Jets tend to counter with?

 

 

 

 

Halls first 3 years in the league were 2010-2012 and Pederson was on the staff there under Reid.  Could have been money too, or just a chance to move up to QB coach or O. coordinator at some point.  

[Buffalo716]

39 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

The biggest and most important thing (and probably the tallest task) is to rebuild the confidence in that offensive room. He has to command the room from the jump, show a clear direction for where he wants to take things, and be able to provide answers when questions ultimately arise. If he can’t do that then it doesn’t matter what we do as far as scheme is concerned.

Can you provide more detail? Are you speaking of teams struggling to find competent players or just that they are harder to project to the next level now?

If the players actually lost their own self-confidence the season is done

 

You can come out flat for 5 weeks, but it doesn't mean you lose your self confidence as a professional football player 

 

If anything they lost confidence in Dorsey which is completely different... When you don't have confidence in the person leading you things go flat

 

This could literally be an instant addition by subtraction... The bills are too classy to throw Ken Dorsey completely under the bus and say he was the problem for 2 years... Which I was also chastised for saying he's not the guy

 

And the players might have 10 times more fire instantly...

 

I don't think the players lost confidence in their talent... In fact I'm 100% sure they didn't

 

They lost confidence in the coach who's no longer there... 

 

The coach that was probably holding them back... It all starts at the top... And the sloppiness of the offense falls on him... Sloppy preparation leads to sloppy games and sloppy execution 

 

It's probably a breath of fresh air for the offense

Edited November 16, 2023 by Buffalo716

[mrags]

25 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Deep Choice will likely still be a big part of this offense. He ran a bunch of it while at LSU. What may happen is he limits the volume of choice plays they have and instead focus on just a few.

Really the only times we saw that was on Mesh concepts (which that’s part of the design of the play) or on scramble drills.

Seriously? I see it like every single game all the time. Like 2 games ago a couple of our receivers took each other out and both fell down in a play. Imo it’s a huge reason why Allen has thrown as many picks and has as many incomplete as he does. He’s throwing into defenses that are stacked on the same side of the field. For the life of me I don’t understand why Dorsey never spread guys out more. With Allen at QB you should be in 4wr sets like every damn play and make the defense try and figure out what you are doing. And just when they think they have everyone covered, Allen should be running. Not sure what’s so hard about the concept 

[Logic]

Thanks, Hoof.

I have a general question pertaining to the Bills' offensive scheme this year. I'm not sure if it's specific enough to warrant a response. Let's see:

I saw guys like Dan Orlovsky and the Cover 1 film crew saying again and again that Dorsey's scheme did not make very good use of spacing in his route concepts.

Without having access to the All-22 and without having the necessary knowledge to parse through it even if I did, I'm not able to suss out the truth of this statement. I DID see with my own eyes on TV every week that two receivers (and sometimes even three) tended to wind up in the same cluster of space on the field a bit too often for my liking, though I can't say whether this was due simply to poor execution, or to the theoretical poor use of spacing about which I'm asking.

From your perspective, were there legitimate issues with the way Ken Dorsey's scheme did or did not make use of spacing in his route concepts and combinations, and is there a way that Joe Brady can realistically improve in this area going forward this season, in your opinion?

[Goin Breakdown]

Ohh wait....not hugs and kisses?  

[HoofHearted]

25 minutes ago, mrags said:

Seriously? I see it like every single game all the time. Like 2 games ago a couple of our receivers took each other out and both fell down in a play. Imo it’s a huge reason why Allen has thrown as many picks and has as many incomplete as he does. He’s throwing into defenses that are stacked on the same side of the field. For the life of me I don’t understand why Dorsey never spread guys out more. With Allen at QB you should be in 4wr sets like every damn play and make the defense try and figure out what you are doing. And just when they think they have everyone covered, Allen should be running. Not sure what’s so hard about the concept 

That was on a rub route.

[HoofHearted]

20 minutes ago, Logic said:

Thanks, Hoof.

I have a general question pertaining to the Bills' offensive scheme this year. I'm not sure if it's specific enough to warrant a response. Let's see:

I saw guys like Dan Orlovsky and the Cover 1 film crew saying again and again that Dorsey's scheme did not make very good use of spacing in his route concepts.

Without having access to the All-22 and without having the necessary knowledge to parse through it even if I did, I'm not able to suss out the truth of this statement. I DID see with my own eyes on TV every week that two receivers (and sometimes even three) tended to wind up in the same cluster of space on the field a bit too often for my liking, though I can't say whether this was due simply to poor execution, or to the theoretical poor use of spacing about which I'm asking.

From your perspective, were there legitimate issues with the way Ken Dorsey's scheme did or did not make use of spacing in his route concepts and combinations, and is there a way that Joe Brady can realistically improve in this area going forward this season, in your opinion?

This whole spacing thing didn’t show up until this year when we started running a mesh concept quite a bit. Mesh creates a rub across the field and uses a snag that sits over top of it. This gives you both a man beater concept and zone beater concept all within the same full field concept. 

 

[Logic]

4 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

This whole spacing thing didn’t show up until this year when we started running a mesh concept quite a bit. Mesh creates a rub across the field and uses a snag that sits over top of it. This gives you both a man beater concept and zone beater concept all within the same full field concept. 

 

Thanks.

I'm familiar with the mesh concept. It's ubiquitous in modern football. I think just about every team runs some version of it.

My question is, was Dorsey running it somehow differently than other teams run it? Did he alter it in some way that led to disadvantageous spacing? I don't imagine that the Bills frequently turning to Mesh is what led to all the hand wringing, in and of itself. There must have been more to it.

 

[HoofHearted]

4 minutes ago, Logic said:

Thanks.

I'm familiar with the mesh concept. It's ubiquitous in modern football. I think just about every team runs some version of it.

My question is, was Dorsey running it somehow differently than other teams run it? Did he alter it in some way that led to disadvantageous spacing? I don't imagine that the Bills frequently turning to Mesh is what led to all the hand wringing, in and of itself. There must have been more to it.

 

Every time Cover 1 talked about spacing issues it was Mesh that he was talking about.

 

EDIT: I have seen people on here complain about spacing issues on scramble drill.

Edited November 16, 2023 by HoofHearted