In Defense of McDermott

[Chaos]

9 hours ago, Dopey said:

It's weird they get praised for starting a 7th rd RB in the SB...because they whiffed on a 1st rd RB. Not all picks pan out, even 1st round picks.

Its wierd that anyone thinks teams who actually win the super bowl would be subject to a lot of criticism. 

17 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't think the gap you refer to is that big. In fact, if your expectation is the team reach the Super Bowl and they continually fall short, they have necessarily failed and the next logical step is to examine which members of the organization could be exchanged for better results.

Bills finished in the top 8 teams the last two seasons.  Virtually everyone says that Allen is anywhere from the #1 to #3 best QB in the NFL.  For this excersie lets assume Josh is #2.  
 

Here are the equations:

 

#2 QB + ____ HC = Top 8.
#2 QB + ____ HC = Top 4.   

#2 QB + ____ HC = Top 2.   

#2 QB + ____ HC =Super Bowl winner.

.   

Edited March 1, 2023 by Chaos

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

Fair. The important thing to remember is that "better results" are never guaranteed by any change undertaken. 

The Eagles fired Andy Reid after 13 years without a championship. He has brought his team to three Super Bowls and won two in the 10 years since. On the other hand, the Eagles themselves have made it to two Super Bowls and won one without him -- though they're on their third head coach since Reid left.

If the bar for "fire-worthy offense" is set at "win a championship", then even if that goal is not met for, say, five to seven consecutive years, then most NFL head coaches ought to have been fired by now. Mike Tomlin, John Harbaugh, et al.

 

Those coaches you mention all won a Super Bowl already tho. There's tons of precedent for longevity when you have the hardware.

 

Andy Reid won his Super Bowl almost immediately after getting a top QB. And like you say the Eagles fired a Super Bowl winning coach and were back within 3 years. Taylor took the Bengals to a Super Bowl the first year he had a healthy roster w Burrow. McVay did it w/ Goff and then won one with Stafford. Shanahan does it with one of the worst and most injury plagued QB rooms in the league. I mean this isn't holding McDermott to some unattainable standard. He's undeniably behind the curve.

[Dopey]

1 minute ago, Chaos said:

Its wierd that anyone thinks teams who actually win the super bowl would be subject to a lot of criticism. 

😂 You don’t really consider that a lot of criticism, do you? Just pointing out not all 1st round picks work out. Even a SB winner whiffs on a 1st round pick. 
 

[Eastport bills]

On 2/28/2023 at 6:12 PM, section122 said:

In light of the Frazier news and all of the whining about McDermott this offseason I wanted to shed some light on the success of the Bills.  Reading this board it seems like the consensus is McD is on the hot seat and needs to figure it out soon.  Time to put that idiotic nonsense to rest. (Also if Florio says it, it most likely isn't true...)

 

Since 2017 when McD took over, the Bills have the 3rd best record in the NFL behind only the Chiefs and the Saints. https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/team-records-since-2017

 

Since 2017 the Bills have the 8th most playoff WINS https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-team-playoff-wins-since-2017

 

Since 2020 when Allen took off, the Bills have the 5th most playoff WINS https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-team-playoff-wins-since-2020

 

Since 2020 the Bills are tied with the 2nd most playoff games played https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-team-playoff-wins-since-2020

 

Since 2017 The Bills have given up the 3rd least points per game https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-team-defensive-ratings-since-2017

 

Since he took over the Bills have been a top 3 regular season team and a top 5 playoff team by these measures.

 

Here are some more ranking him against contemporaries:

 

Amongst all active coaches he has the 7th best win % https://www.footballdb.com/coaches/index.html?sort=pct ahead of names like John Harbaugh and Sean McVay

 

He has the 21st best winning % OF ALL TIME https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/

 

He has the 46th most playoff wins OF ALL TIME (same link as above)

 

Of those 46, he has the 6th most wins with coaches with the same or less experience OF ALL TIME

 

Did you know?

 

There are only 38 coaches who have coached in 10 or more playoff games? McD has 9

 

Of those 38 only Sean McVay has done that in 6 or fewer seasons.

 

There are only 2 active coaches in the NFL with more than 1 super bowl win (Reid and Belichick)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_National_Football_League_head_coaches#:~:text=Belichick also has the most,Andy Reid%2C and Sean McVay.

 

There are only 8 active coaches who have won a super bowl period.

 

Give the man his flowers.  He is a great coach and we are lucky to have him.

 

It seems you have prepared a comprehensive argument for supporting Sean. The only problem is that all of those statistics mean nothing if he doesn’t beat KC or Cinn in games that get our team to a SB. He has engineered one of the colossal choke jobs in the “13 seconds “ game and been out coached the other 2 seasons Josh and Diggs have been together. He’s a defensive minded coach whose defense has been lacking in the biggest games the last 3 seasons. His O-lines  have been pedestrian since he’s been here and his best runner is our franchise QB. You want to celebrate mediocrity don’t ask 40 year fans who have bled internally with this team,to be satisfied with regular season records and early round playoff success. We have arguably one of the top 2 QBs in football, we can’t waste his prime.

[section122]

3 hours ago, Chaos said:

 

Bills finished in the top 8 teams the last two seasons.  Virtually everyone says that Allen is anywhere from the #1 to #3 best QB in the NFL.  For this excersie lets assume Josh is #2.  
 

Here are the equations:

 

#2 QB + ____ HC = Top 8.
#2 QB + ____ HC = Top 4.   

#2 QB + ____ HC = Top 2.   

#2 QB + ____ HC =Super Bowl winner.

.   

 

So the only 2 positiona that matter are hc and qb? Thw rest of the roster means nothing?  I disagree strongly.  As I pointed out earlier the Bengals offense is miles more talented than the Bills.  Also the gap between Burrow and Allen is narrow if it exists at all.  The Chiefs have a head coach and qb combo that is inarguably better than the Bills. 

 

The AFC is a bloodbath right now.  Mahomes, Herbert, Burrow, Allen, Lawrence are all fantastic qbs.  Homefield and the bye have become hugely important.  Not only the rest but avoiding that second round matchup of either the Chiefs or Bengals.  This was a regular talking point this year.

 

The Bills have gone afc cahmpionship divisional round divisional round.  Do you know how many other teams have made least the divisional the last 3 years? The chiefs and bengals.  That's it.  No other teams have had the consistent success.  Hopefully one of these years things break right for them.  There are problems with the Bills but I don't think McD is one of them.

[section122]

Just now, Eastport bills said:

It seems you have prepared a comprehensive argument for supporting Sean. The only problem is that all of those statistics mean nothing if he doesn’t beat KC or Cinn in games that get our team to a SB. He has engineered one of the colossal choke jobs in the “13 seconds “ game and been out coached the other 2 seasons Josh and Diggs have been together. He’s a defensive minded coach whose defense has been lacking in the biggest games the last 3 seasons. His O-lines  have been pedestrian since he’s been here and his best runner is our franchise QB. You want to celebrate mediocrity don’t ask 40 year fans who have bled internally with this team,to be satisfied with regular season records and early round playoff success. We have arguably one of the top 2 QBs in football, we can’t waste his prime.

Mediocrity? Are you serious?  They are consistently successful something that hasnt been said about the Bills since the 90s!  They have won the afc east 3 years in a row in a divison with the best coach of all time.  Nothing about the Bills or their results have been mediocre.

 

As i put in the op they have the 3rd most wins in the league since he took over.  That's not mediocre.

[Eastport bills]

9 hours ago, section122 said:

Mediocrity? Are you serious?  They are consistently successful something that hasnt been said about the Bills since the 90s!  They have won the afc east 3 years in a row in a divison with the best coach of all time.  Nothing about the Bills or their results have been mediocre.

 

As i put in the op they have the 3rd most wins in the league since he took over.  That's not mediocre.

Please stop with this delusional mentality about what success looks like. Winning the AFCE against the hapless Jets, Bellicek’s Pats without Brady(dumpster fire) or the Tua led Dolphins means very little. You’re oblivious to the fact that Josh provides the best chance the Bills have had to win a championship in the history of our team. To rational observers we took a step backwards last season and now face an improved division without 2 of our best defenders(Poyer, Edmunds). I enjoy the regular season wins as well as the next guy, but I keep looking for Sean to define his career with that culture changing win in the playoffs, not the soul crushing losses we endured the last 3 seasons.

[Logic]

16 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Those coaches you mention all won a Super Bowl already tho. There's tons of precedent for longevity when you have the hardware.

 

Andy Reid won his Super Bowl almost immediately after getting a top QB. And like you say the Eagles fired a Super Bowl winning coach and were back within 3 years. Taylor took the Bengals to a Super Bowl the first year he had a healthy roster w Burrow. McVay did it w/ Goff and then won one with Stafford. Shanahan does it with one of the worst and most injury plagued QB rooms in the league. I mean this isn't holding McDermott to some unattainable standard. He's undeniably behind the curve.

I was with you on this whole post up until the final statement.

Saying he's "undeniably" behind the curve....I just can't agree with that.

You list four coaches that went to Super Bowls, but you don't mention the dozens from the past five years who didn't, and who had much worse results than McDermott. 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Logic said:

I was with you on this whole post up until the final statement.

Saying he's "undeniably" behind the curve....I just can't agree with that.

You list four coaches that went to Super Bowls, but you don't mention the dozens from the past five years who didn't, and who had much worse results than McDermott. 

Those guys didn't have a top QB.

[Teddy KGB]

If you ain’t first you’re last. 
 

GM and HC can both walk 

[Logic]

13 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Those guys didn't have a top QB.

How many Super Bowls did Philip Rivers win? Dan Marino? Dan Fouts? How many seasons did Peyton Manning play before he reached his first Super Bowl? How many seasons did the great Drew Brees play before reaching a Super Bowl, and how many did he win in his 15 year career?

If you'd rather stay more recent, why hasn't Justin Herbert sniffed an AFC Championship game yet? Deshaun Watson was a top QB prior to his scandals. Where are his Super Bowl appearances?

Just having a great QB, in and of itself, is not an automatic entry ticket to a Super Bowl. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Logic

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Logic said:

How many Super Bowls did Philip Rivers win? Dan Marino? Dan Fouts? How many seasons did Peyton Manning play before he reached his first Super Bowl? How many seasons did the great Drew Brees play before reaching a Super Bowl, and how many did he win in his 15 year career?

If you'd rather stay more recent, why hasn't Justin Herbert sniffed an AFC Championship game yet? Deshaun Watson was a top QB prior to his scandals. Where are his Super Bowl appearances?

Just having a great QB, in and of itself, is not an automatic entry ticket to a Super Bowl. 

Staley is going to get fired soon, and rightfully so. Also Deshaun Watson was never a top QB. He was a stat machine on a bunch of bad teams.

 

Those other examples are not so relevant. The game has changed.

[Augie]

13 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

If you ain’t first you’re last. 
 

GM and HC can both walk 

 

That is absolutely ridiculous, but I guess it tells us something. Maybe we should give Rex another shot. 

[Teddy KGB]

Just now, Augie said:

 

That is absolutely ridiculous, but I guess it tells us something. Maybe we should give Rex another shot. 

it tells you that this team is wasting Josh Allen’s time. 
 

McDermott with the punting.    Beane by drafting DE’s In the first round on repeat who didn’t even sniff Joe Burrow because they were getting pantsed by some thrift store OL.  

 

 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

That is absolutely ridiculous, but I guess it tells us something. Maybe we should give Rex another shot. 

Rex Ryan did more in the postseason with Mark Sanchez than Sean McDermott has with Josh Allen.

[Logic]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Rex Ryan did more in the postseason with Mark Sanchez than Sean McDermott has with Josh Allen.

That example is not so relevant. The game has changed.

[GoBills808]

Just now, Logic said:

That example is not so relevant. The game has changed.

It was not my example.

[Teddy KGB]

5 minutes ago, Logic said:

That example is not so relevant. The game has changed.

No, he hit you with a very good point. 
 

Advantage 808 

 

McDermott out here taking L’s with the golden goose playing QB. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Teddy KGB

[3rdand12]

15 hours ago, Eastport bills said:

It seems you have prepared a comprehensive argument for supporting Sean. The only problem is that all of those statistics mean nothing if he doesn’t beat KC or Cinn in games that get our team to a SB. He has engineered one of the colossal choke jobs in the “13 seconds “ game and been out coached the other 2 seasons Josh and Diggs have been together. He’s a defensive minded coach whose defense has been lacking in the biggest games the last 3 seasons. His O-lines  have been pedestrian since he’s been here and his best runner is our franchise QB. You want to celebrate mediocrity don’t ask 40 year fans who have bled internally with this team,to be satisfied with regular season records and early round playoff success. We have arguably one of the top 2 QBs in football, we can’t waste his prime.

Well this is where the line has been drawn isn't it ?

 When McBeanes came on , the mantra was to "build" a long term competitive Team. The SB win is unsaid of course.
They have done that.
They have Allen.

 

I am pro McDermott because he has built a culture I respect and can cheer for.
 But he has absolutely made tactical mistakes. he's a youngish Coach and has a fair amount of transition to find what  works with the Dynamics and who he assigns what roles in his responsibilities to field a wining team week in and week out.

 He aint there yet, Obviously.
 Its plain to see his coaches were not getting the most out of their player responsibilities for reasons i wont pretend to understand !

 But this season has to be different. Both sides of the ball.
Cant wait to see what they do to adjust.

 btw I am fine being long term contenders as compared to the Rams

 

[Eastport bills]

1 hour ago, 3rdand12 said:

Well this is where the line has been drawn isn't it ?

 When McBeanes came on , the mantra was to "build" a long term competitive Team. The SB win is unsaid of course.
They have done that.
They have Allen.

 

I am pro McDermott because he has built a culture I respect and can cheer for.
 But he has absolutely made tactical mistakes. he's a youngish Coach and has a fair amount of transition to find what  works with the Dynamics and who he assigns what roles in his responsibilities to field a wining team week in and week out.

 He aint there yet, Obviously.
 Its plain to see his coaches were not getting the most out of their player responsibilities for reasons i wont pretend to understand !

 But this season has to be different. Both sides of the ball.
Cant wait to see what they do to adjust.

 btw I am fine being long term contenders as compared to the Rams

 

I respect your position because the guy is a great leader and has established a winning culture. The fact that we want to see him improve game day decisions and performance in big games is necessary to being the long term answer. We can argue the merits of the Rams strategy some other time but all the coaching staff deficiencies are on the HC. It troubles me to hear him say, after Frazier steps away, he’d like to see his defense be more punishing. You can’t assemble a defense focused on speed and then lament they’re not physical enough. Same thing with Dorsey’s play calling, he loved the short passing success in the early games and then got criticized for  an offense focused on splash plays. It’s his responsibility to tell Dorsey (a first time OC) how he wants plays called. We have a disadvantage with a defensive minded coach influencing our offensive creativity. We can win championships with this guy but his command of this team’s performance has to improve. If not, winning divisions aren’t enough.

[Augie]

5 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

If you ain’t first you’re last. 
 

GM and HC can both walk 

 

What a terrific idea! Let’s take a page out of the Brown’s playbook. It’s worked wonders for them!!!  😋

 

At least by using the same basic framework with some appropriate (and necessary) tweaks we can remain in the running every year. Starting over is what the Browns do. Even if you get lucky the first or second (or 5th) time, the transition is still difficult, and could be the easiest way to waste a chunk of Josh’s prime years. Change does not guarantee success. In fact, the odds are against you. 

 

 

[section122]

6 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

If you ain’t first you’re last. 
 

GM and HC can both walk 

 

Love that movie shirley you remember the end of it tho.