Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tiberius]

 

Vance will be seriously pushed onto Trump, just like Manafort was 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[L Ron Burgundy]

5 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

It comes from Russia to the easily manipulated, moronic, almost exclusively republican elected officials.   Then it gets picked up by the easily manipulated,  moronic,  republican base.  I mean, you see it right in this thread.   It's virtually a case study in how well the Russian propaganda machine works.

 

 

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

It comes from Russia to the easily manipulated, moronic, almost exclusively republican elected officials.   Then it gets picked up by the easily manipulated,  moronic,  republican base.  I mean, you see it right in this thread.   It's virtually a case study in how well the Russian propaganda machine works.

 

Versus Nazi Dem propaganda?

[L Ron Burgundy]

27 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Versus Nazi Dem propaganda?

Nazi?  I thought we were commies?  Yall can't make up your minds.  Know why?  

 

Because you are all 100% FOS.  Your party is in shambles,  utter ruin.  You have to believe and support the absurd and its become normal.   All from being mesmerized by an imbecile.   Amazing.   You probably never would have fallen for Russian propaganda years ago.  Now?  

[Doc]

16 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

Nazi?  I thought we were commies?  Yall can't make up your minds.  Know why?  

 

Because you are all 100% FOS.  Your party is in shambles,  utter ruin.  You have to believe and support the absurd and its become normal.   All from being mesmerized by an imbecile.   Amazing.   You probably never would have fallen for Russian propaganda years ago.  Now?  

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tommy Callahan]

So much propaganda posted as fact by the war mongers.

 

90+% of the citizens of the disputed region and Crimea are Russian citizens.  They even had a vote and everything.

 

unlike Ukraine that suspended elections and is in martial law.

 

 

[B-Man]

 

 

Keep the money flowing.

 

 

[Tiberius]

6 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Keep the money flowing.

 

 

Good

[Tommy Callahan]

 

[Tiberius]

Terrorist Russia being terrorists 

 

 

[Tommy Callahan]

 

[B-Man]

 

 

 

Down the Drain: After Billions in U.S. Aid, Ukraine Army Chief Says Tactical Retreat Underway

 

 

 

https://twitchy.com/amy-curtis/2024/04/30/ukraine-army-chief-says-tactical-retreat-underway-n2395707

[Tiberius]

 

Latest round of American weapons already having a major effect in the war 

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

22 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

Down the Drain: After Billions in U.S. Aid, Ukraine Army Chief Says Tactical Retreat Underway

 

 

 

https://twitchy.com/amy-curtis/2024/04/30/ukraine-army-chief-says-tactical-retreat-underway-n2395707

 

Yuuuuuuuppp.

 

In spite of the fact that Syrsky was torn down as a mindless butcher of the Soviet School... he's proven much more pragmatic than Zaluzhny. And far less profligate with the lives of his men. 

 

So he gets to trade space for time until his logistics backlog works itself out.

 

Whatever strategy he works out after that though...maybe he shouldn't telegraph a grand counter attack for months?

 

Maybe he should take a page from Mikhail Teplinsky's book, and make Russia flog itself against Ukrainian defenses...that are properly supplied with artillery ammunition and air defenses for the first time in forever. 

[Tiberius]

Macron claiming he might send French troops to Ukraine

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13375319/Macron-vows-send-TROOPS-Ukraine-Putins-forces-break-lines.html

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

 

[LDD]

On 4/29/2024 at 8:18 AM, Tommy Callahan said:

So much propaganda posted as fact by the war mongers.

 

90+% of the citizens of the disputed region and Crimea are Russian citizens.  They even had a vote and everything.

 

unlike Ukraine that suspended elections and is in martial law.

 

 

Why does every post you make go against American interests?  It is a brutal world, you seem not to understand that.  Ask the Israelis.  If you are an American citizen you are either a coward or a liar.  

[All_Pro_Bills]

14 minutes ago, LDD said:

Why does every post you make go against American interests?  It is a brutal world, you seem not to understand that.  Ask the Israelis.  If you are an American citizen you are either a coward or a liar.  

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd argue America has no vital interest there and therefore getting involved will result in one of many outcomes.  All of which are bad.  China is our biggest threat, but it looks like they've bought off all the American officials and elites necessary to get policy makers to more or less ignore them.

Edited 11 hours ago by All_Pro_Bills

[LDD]

3 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd argue America has no vital interest there and therefore getting involved will result in one of many outcomes.  All of which are bad.  China is our biggest threat, but it looks like they've bought off all the American officials and elites necessary to get policy makers to more or less ignore them.

I disagree if your position is that America has no vital interest in Europe.  Ukraine is a country in flux (politically, economically, socially). There is a war there for a reason.  It is also a barrier between one of our big three rivals and NATO.  No argument that our biggest threat is China.  That is clear.  However, Russia is a close number two and operates in a different, but not less effective manner than China.  In the end, I feel for the Russian people in this scenario.  They are being used brutally by a criminal dictator.  I cannot imagine what would happen to Ukrainian citizens without our support.  The crying here reflects no perception of reality IMO.     

[ChiGoose]

8 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd argue America has no vital interest there and therefore getting involved will result in one of many outcomes.  All of which are bad.  China is our biggest threat, but it looks like they've bought off all the American officials and elites necessary to get policy makers to more or less ignore them.

Ukraine falling due to lack of Western support will make Putin think the West is weak. He miscalculated in launching the war in Ukraine but if he ends up winning it, it’ll reinforce his belief that the West is weak and Russia can regain its empire. At that point, it’s only a matter of time before he tests NATO. 
 

I’d rather avoid that scenario all together. Sending money now prevents sending troops later.  
 

As to China, the US has tariffs against Chinese steel, is stepping up export controls to hamper Chinese technological advances, stepping up US production of chips so we aren’t reliant on imports, banning TikTok to prevent CCP data collection, strengthening alliances and relationships with key Asian and Pacific countries like Japan, Australia, India, the Philippines and others to box in China. We probably have the most anti-China posture that we’ve had in decades. 
 

Not to mention, a Russian defeat in Ukraine due to Western support might make China hesitate to invade Taiwan. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

40 minutes ago, LDD said:

Why does every post you make go against American interests?  It is a brutal world, you seem not to understand that.  Ask the Israelis.  If you are an American citizen you are either a coward or a liar.  

 

Look at All Pro's posting history in this thread. It's a bizarre mix of leftist "anti-imperialism" and isolationist declinism. 

 

He thinks America is an Empire that deserves to fall because Empires are wrong, but that Russia and China are Empires that deserve to rise because de- dollarization is good and a weakened America is good.

 

 

 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, ChiGoose said:

Ukraine falling due to lack of Western support will make Putin think the West is weak. He miscalculated in launching the war in Ukraine but if he ends up winning it, it’ll reinforce his belief that the West is weak and Russia can regain its empire. At that point, it’s only a matter of time before he tests NATO. 
 

I’d rather avoid that scenario all together. Sending money now prevents sending troops later.  
 

As to China, the US has tariffs against Chinese steel, is stepping up export controls to hamper Chinese technological advances, stepping up US production of chips so we aren’t reliant on imports, banning TikTok to prevent CCP data collection, strengthening alliances and relationships with key Asian and Pacific countries like Japan, Australia, India, the Philippines and others to box in China. We probably have the most anti-China posture that we’ve had in decades. 
 

Not to mention, a Russian defeat in Ukraine due to Western support might make China hesitate to invade Taiwan. 

 

There is zero chance he tests NATO. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

44 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

There is zero chance he tests NATO. 

 

Right? I mean, just add up the numbers.

 

The 13 Colonies vs the British Empire.

 

North Vietnam vs the USA.

 

Afghanistan vs. the USSR

 

The Russian Empire vs. the Japanese Empire.

 

Weaker powers never fight larger ones. Because if they just add up the numbers, they'd realize they're doomed. And there's no point in trying.

 

Look at Imperial Japan...they realized they couldn't win a war against the US... that's why they didn't bother bombing Pearl Harbor...

 

 

[Doc]

11 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Right? I mean, just add up the numbers.

 

The 13 Colonies vs the British Empire.

 

North Vietnam vs the USA.

 

Afghanistan vs. the USSR

 

The Russian Empire vs. the Japanese Empire.

 

Weaker powers never fight larger ones. Because if they just add up the numbers, they'd realize they're doomed. And there's no point in trying.

 

Look at Imperial Japan...they realized they couldn't win a war against the US... that's why they didn't bother bombing Pearl Harbor...

 

How'd that turn out again?

 

And it was the Germans who bombed Pearl Harbor...

[ChiGoose]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

There is zero chance he tests NATO. 

I don’t understand the confidence that the guy who wants to destroy NATO, wants to resurrect Russian empire, has surrounded himself with sycophants, has killed or removed anyone who challenges him, who massively miscalculated the Ukraine invasion, wouldn’t, upon being triumphant in what he views as a war against the West, push the envelope for the goal he clearly seeks. 
 

I agree that it would be an incredibly stupid thing to do, but are we willing to risk WWIII on Putin being rational and tethered to reality when the evidence clearly cuts against that?

Edited 8 hours ago by ChiGoose

[Doc]

10 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

I don’t understand the confidence that the guy who wants to destroy NATO, wants to resurrect Russian empire, has surrounded himself with sycophants, has killed or removed anyone who challenges him, who massively miscalculated the Ukraine invasion, wouldn’t, upon being triumphant in what he views as a war against the West, push the envelope for the goal he clearly seeks. 
 

I agree that it would be an incredibly stupid thing to do, but are we willing to risk WWIII on Putin being rational and tethered to reality when the evidence clearly cuts against that?

 

Again he's struggling against a non-NATO country with minimal NATO help.  He thought it would take a couple weeks and it's year 3 now.  Russia has no chance against NATO and he knows it. 

[ChiGoose]

6 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Again he's struggling against a non-NATO country with minimal NATO help.  He thought it would take a couple weeks and it's year 3 now.  Russia has no chance against NATO and he knows it. 

He also knew that he would capture Kyiv in three days.

 

He wouldn’t be betting that he could beat NATO, he’d be betting that NATO wouldn’t actually come to the defense of a smaller Baltic state and risk global war. 

[Doc]

7 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

He also knew that he would capture Kyiv in three days.

 

He wouldn’t be betting that he could beat NATO, he’d be betting that NATO wouldn’t actually come to the defense of a smaller Baltic state and risk global war. 

 

To what smaller Baltic state are you referring?  A NATO one?

 

[ChiGoose]

15 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

To what smaller Baltic state are you referring?  A NATO one?

 

If Russia succeeds in Ukraine, reconstitutes its military and then invades Latvia, would you support sending US troops to defend it in accordance with Article V?

[All_Pro_Bills]

7 hours ago, ChiGoose said:

If Russia succeeds in Ukraine, reconstitutes its military and then invades Latvia, would you support sending US troops to defend it in accordance with Article V?

Yes, but Russia isn't going to do that because they don't have the military or economic power and size to take on the US military and NATO.  All involved parties, their officials and intelligence resources know the numbers.

That theoretical belief that Russia aspires to reconstitute the former Soviet Union being championed by many in the US and the western alliance is one of many excuses used to mold support to continue to supply a war Ukraine cannot win at this point.  Absent any radical increase in conscription of men into the military they don't have enough troops.  Rather than a need for more weopons they need more trained troops to use them.  The majority of their best and experienced fighters have been killed, wounded, captured, or are

too burned out by 2 continuous years of constant combat without a break.  It's time to negotiate. 

France has been threatening to send troops to join combat operations.  I doubt that's a popular view domestically.  It's a senseless escalation.

 

What we're doing now is similar to a person sitting on an unrealized  loss from making a bad investment decision.  Rather than admit to a mistake they pour more money into it, averaging down.  In an attempt to recover their initial cost.  Rather than doing that, it would be better to cut your losses and look at other potential opportunities for putting additional money to work.  Instead they mindlessly pump more money into the loser.  Which never comes back.   That's what we're doing in Ukraine.

Edited 34 minutes ago by All_Pro_Bills