There should be a national dialogue in getting back to work

[dubs]

10 hours ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

 

 

 

Good for this woman.  Happy to see people taking a stand and taking direction from themselves rather than no nothing judges and bureaucrats.  

 

 

[ALF]

Trump executive order didn't stop meat plant closures. Seven more shut in the past week.

 

The meat slaughtering and processing industry is among the hardest hit by the pandemic. At least 167 plants have had outbreaks, sickening at least 9,400 people, primarily workers. At least 45 workers have died, according to the media outlets’ tracking.

 

More such closures are anticipated. Tyson Foods, one of the largest U.S. meatpacking companies, announced Monday it expected to shut additional plants because of low staffing and “choices we make to ensure operational safety,” according to its quarterly earning report.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/05/05/coronavirus-closes-meatpacking-plants-despite-trump-executive-order/5172526002/

 

3 USDA meat inspectors dead, about 145 diagnosed with COVID-19

 

Despite the close contact with other workers, the USDA has not provided personal protective equipment (PPE) to inspectors. The department is still working to "identify PPE needs in the food supply chain," the USDA spokesperson said Monday.

 

Instead, the USDA has offered a $50 stipend for inspectors to buy face coverings or the materials to make them, according to an FSIS notice issued in early April. It cited increased demand and limited supplies of commercial face coverings as the reason for the one-time reimbursement.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-usda-meat-inspectors-3-dead-covid-19/

 

Smithfield Foods, Inc., is a meat-processing company based in Smithfield, Virginia, in the United States, and a wholly owned subsidiary of WH Group of China. Founded in 1936 as the Smithfield Packing Company by Joseph W. Luter and his son, the company is the largest pig and pork producer in the world.

[shoshin]

3 minutes ago, ALF said:

Trump executive order didn't stop meat plant closures.

 

The Order didn't force them to stay open so of course they are closing. People are getting sick in droves. 

 

It will take a few weeks for this to get back up and running. We will enjoy some vegetarian cooking for a while and look forward to full shelves again in the future. 

 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-delegating-authority-dpa-respect-food-supply-chain-resources-national-emergency-caused-outbreak-covid-19/

[Trump_is_Mentally_fit]

9 minutes ago, ALF said:

Trump executive order didn't stop meat plant closures. Seven more shut in the past week.

 

The meat slaughtering and processing industry is among the hardest hit by the pandemic. At least 167 plants have had outbreaks, sickening at least 9,400 people, primarily workers. At least 45 workers have died, according to the media outlets’ tracking.

 

More such closures are anticipated. Tyson Foods, one of the largest U.S. meatpacking companies, announced Monday it expected to shut additional plants because of low staffing and “choices we make to ensure operational safety,” according to its quarterly earning report.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/05/05/coronavirus-closes-meatpacking-plants-despite-trump-executive-order/5172526002/

 

3 USDA meat inspectors dead, about 145 diagnosed with COVID-19

 

Despite the close contact with other workers, the USDA has not provided personal protective equipment (PPE) to inspectors. The department is still working to "identify PPE needs in the food supply chain," the USDA spokesperson said Monday.

 

Instead, the USDA has offered a $50 stipend for inspectors to buy face coverings or the materials to make them, according to an FSIS notice issued in early April. It cited increased demand and limited supplies of commercial face coverings as the reason for the one-time reimbursement.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-usda-meat-inspectors-3-dead-covid-19/

 

Smithfield Foods, Inc., is a meat-processing company based in Smithfield, Virginia, in the United States, and a wholly owned subsidiary of WH Group of China. Founded in 1936 as the Smithfield Packing Company by Joseph W. Luter and his son, the company is the largest pig and pork producer in the world.

My mom rents out her land for cattle grazing. The guy doing the renting just cleared out all his cattle, maybe fifty of them, all gone. We figure he was chasing high prices in the market now for the area. 

 

This situation agains shows why the shutdown is logical.

[plenzmd1]

28 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Tragic for those affected. This whole thing will accelerate the changes in the economy, so there will be a big shift in the economy that will hurt a lot of people 

Very tragic indeed, and some very hard discussions need to be had about the greater good with regards to lockdowns and opening up the economy. Unfortunately, we live in a time where any discussion of opening and ackowledging , that yes , that will mean additional deaths paints one as death monger only worried about net worth.

 

And yes it sounds crass, but for the most part we are talking about cratering the economy to extend the life by a month or  year of people already at an end of life cycle. 

[Taro T]

7 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Very tragic indeed, and some very hard discussions need to be had about the greater good with regards to lockdowns and opening up the economy. Unfortunately, we live in a time where any discussion of opening and ackowledging , that yes , that will mean additional deaths paints one as death monger only worried about net worth.

 

And yes it sounds crass, but for the most part we are talking about cratering the economy to extend the life by a month or  year of people already at an end of life cycle. 

 

Well, opening likely means more COVID deaths, but how many other stress related deaths does it prevent?  How many people won't end up starving because the food supply chain won't have completely broken down?  And how many people won't end up victims of crimes committed out of desperation? 

 

There's a lot more angles/layers to this than people want to acknowledge.  Wonder how many politicians that are wresting with these decisions are now questioning whether the graft they get in good times are worth it?

[Trump_is_Mentally_fit]

15 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Very tragic indeed, and some very hard discussions need to be had about the greater good with regards to lockdowns and opening up the economy. Unfortunately, we live in a time where any discussion of opening and ackowledging , that yes , that will mean additional deaths paints one as death monger only worried about net worth.

 

And yes it sounds crass, but for the most part we are talking about cratering the economy to extend the life by a month or  year of people already at an end of life cycle. 

For NYS anyway, less than half the deaths were from those 74 and over. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

[dubs]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

For NYS anyway, less than half the deaths were from those 74 and over. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

 

or, 72.3% of deaths were from people over 65.

 

also, 4.54% of deaths were people 44 or younger.

 

Just to provide some more context.

[Trump_is_Mentally_fit]

1 minute ago, dubs said:

 

or, 72.3% of deaths were from people over 65.

 

also, 4.54% of deaths were people 44 or younger.

 

Just to provide some more context.

All of which should trouble the pro-life people. I'm sure they want the lock down to save as many people as possible 

[plenzmd1]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

All of which should trouble the pro-life people. I'm sure they want the lock down to save as many people as possible 

I get the philosophical debate one can have about the diametrically opposed positions..I am a living   breathing example of it..I am pro-life yet very anti capital punishment. 

 

Having said that, now is not the time to let politics and being right, or more important it seems, proving the other guy wrong, drive our policy decsions..Unfortunately that is driving the discussion  on both sides i believe, and prevents meaningful conversations and debate..I know, always that way, but in this mess would hope it would change. Does not help we are in an election year.

 

 

[dubs]

6 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

All of which should trouble the pro-life people. I'm sure they want the lock down to save as many people as possible 

 

Huh?  What are you talking about?

 

Some more context:

 

For the entire population, 75% had a known underlying health issue.  2% did not.  The rest were unknown.

 

So basically, and I thank you for sharing the data, what we know is that the vast majority of deaths are people over age 65 with a serious underlying health issue as a co-factor.

 

Thanks Tibs!

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, dubs said:

 

Huh?  What are you talking about?

 

Some more context:

 

For the entire population, 75% had a known underlying health issue.  2% did not.  The rest were unknown.

 

So basically, and I thank you for sharing the data, what we know is that the vast majority of deaths are people over age 65 with a serious underlying health issue as a co-factor.

 

Thanks Tibs!

 

 

100% correct. Birx and Fauchi screwed this up big time. The data was right there in front of them. 

[RochesterRob]

28 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

My mom rents out her land for cattle grazing. The guy doing the renting just cleared out all his cattle, maybe fifty of them, all gone. We figure he was chasing high prices in the market now for the area. 

 

This situation agains shows why the shutdown is logical.

  There has to be more to the story than what you are saying.  Any breeding cattle is normally kept to maintain a flow of stock.  If he was just raising stock for processing you would have already seen the nature of the cycle.  Some operators this time of year start moving stock to state lands that allow grazing which have lower costs.  

[Warren Zevon]

7 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

I get the philosophical debate one can have about the diametrically opposed positions..I am a living   breathing example of it..I am pro-life yet very anti capital punishment. 

 

Having said that, now is not the time to let politics and being right, or more important it seems, proving the other guy wrong, drive our policy decsions..Unfortunately that is driving the discussion  on both sides i believe, and prevents meaningful conversations and debate..I know, always that way, but in this mess would hope it would change. Does not help we are in an election year.

 

 

 

It's May and there still isn't a national testing strategy. A national dialogue absent of politics requires a national leader to moderate with facts and projections based off those facts. That's not happening. When a leader does not lead by example his or her hypocrisy is amplified by the opposing political party. It's been that way since long before Trump. #OrangeManBad or whatever - it's his job to be a leader and unite the country. That is not happening. 

[Chef Jim]

17 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

All of which should trouble the pro-life people. I'm sure they want the lock down to save as many people as possible 

Does your ass hurt from pulling all the stuff out of it?

[Trump_is_Mentally_fit]

7 minutes ago, dubs said:

 

Huh?  What are you talking about?

 

Some more context:

 

For the entire population, 75% had a known underlying health issue.  2% did not.  The rest were unknown.

 

So basically, and I thank you for sharing the data, what we know is that the vast majority of deaths are people over age 65 with a serious underlying health issue as a co-factor.

 

Thanks Tibs!

 

 

So? I don't get what point you are making by breaking down who died. Was it to address the point that only people with a few months to live are dying, which is not true? 

8 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  There has to be more to the story than what you are saying.  Any breeding cattle is normally kept to maintain a flow of stock.  If he was just raising stock for processing you would have already seen the nature of the cycle.  Some operators this time of year start moving stock to state lands that allow grazing which have lower costs.  

You might be right, because he also took his two horses with him. Not sure what's going on. I'm not unhappy he left, though. 

 

He hasn't moved them for cheaper grazing, he had a great situation there. 

[dubs]

6 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

So? I don't get what point you are making by breaking down who died. Was it to address the point that only people with a few months to live are dying, which is not true? 

it’s just to put things into the proper context. 
 

if we know that the vast majority of deaths are with a specific group, does it make sense to enact such draconian measures rather than more targeted measures to combat the virus?  That’s all. 

 

Especially when we also know that the number of cases is extremely underreported, especially with the younger, less succeptible groups, so the death rates are much lower and even more skewed toward the vulnerable group that we should be able to target with less constrict mitigation efforts.

Edited May 6, 2020 by dubs

[Trump_is_Mentally_fit]

2 minutes ago, dubs said:

it’s just to put things into the proper context. 
 

if we know that the vast majority of deaths are with a specific group, does it make sense to enact such draconian measures rather than more targeted measures to combat the virus?  That’s all. 

I would say yes it does.

 

Two things. 25% of the deaths were under 65, so that would be a huge number of deaths if unchecked. And, if you opened schools, hotels, sporting events and restaurants, the people there might only be carriers, but they will come in contact with the elderly, sick and unfit. Nursing homes and other places would be at a huge increased risk. We would see a huge uptick in deaths all across the spectrum. 

[plenzmd1]

1 minute ago, Warren Zevon said:

 

It's May and there still isn't a national testing strategy. A national dialogue absent of politics requires a national leader to moderate with facts and projections based off those facts. That's not happening. When a leader does not lead by example his or her hypocrisy is amplified by the opposing political party. It's been that way since long before Trump. #OrangeManBad or whatever - it's his job to be a leader and unite the country. That is not happening. 

No, its just the "facts"( and his supporters) he is using don't agree with the "facts" that anti Trump folks( of which i am one) are using, and hence , goest o the heart of the argument in this thread..Title of which is " needs to be a discussion" ...

 

But when only the "science" that supports your view is used, and all sides to the argument are not considered, and their is an election coming up, discussion and debate is none existant. You either want to save lives, or you are a greedy SOB who only cares about net worth.

 

We as a country need  to have the discussion about the impacts of keeping the economy closed is going to have long term. Expected deaths with a crashed economy, how long till we pay of the debt, what impacts on social programs the debt will impact etc. That includes best guesses based on available data  on which populations will suffer the most in terms of expected morbidity, expected life expetency  in those affected populations etc on opening up.

 

And then a cost benefit analysis needs to occur...sound awful I know, but it is the reality. 

 

 

 

 

[Trump_is_Mentally_fit]