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McDermott Weds Presser: Sullivan asks whether Allen is an improvement over Tyrod

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4 hours ago, ColeB said:

 

And there are several QBs who were thought to be the answer for their teams who have since regressed: Mariota, Goff, Trubisky, Mayfield, Wentz

 

And Goff got PAID.  And it seems like he also got figured out right around the time he got paid.  They need a powerhouse Oline to dominate the LOS for that O to work... and now they have no cap room since they paid - Donald, Cooks, Goff, Gurley, Woods, Higbee, Havenstein... even Hekker.  They also will have to negotiate with or trade ramsey this offseason - and they carry about 25 mil in cap space including what they carry over. 

 

They can't really extend anyone, and there aren't cap savings to cut anyone from that group.  They have no first round pick in the next 2 drafts... and their oline (which isn't very good right now) will probably get worse.  I still can't believe they extended gurley, huge mistake looking back.  Oh - and their best offensive player becomes a free agent in 2021.  Yikes...

 

Wentz is in need of like - 1 more target i think.  Sanders does look legit though - so that helps.  Jeffery is good but he doesn't scream like top dog #1 WR, I guess he's better than John Brown but i think he's just bigger.  Ertz is awesome... but agholor has hands of stone and desean jackson is always hurt (and old).  Arcega-Whiteside should be able to eventually fill that like #2 do-all guy (your robert woods type), but they could use someone in the slot with a bit more talent. 

 

2 young players, an all-pro TE, and a former 1000 yard receiver/RZ threat - just missing another chain mover.  If Emmanuel sanders has any tread left I think he'd fit nicely in there, allowing them to use the draft to focus on defense.

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10 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

You get what you pay for :)

No, the whole point of the post was even if Tyrod=Josh, the Bills are paying a lot less for Josh than they would have paid Tyrod.  

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12 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

What did @DC Tom (or @Alaska Darin) do to you that they remind you of Jerry Sullivan?

 

It is NOT DC Tom who reminds me of Jerry Sullivan - DC Tom is obviously too bright.

It is the Muppets' character who criticized everything and had a head full of felt.

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27 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

And Goff got PAID.  And it seems like he also got figured out right around the time he got paid.  They need a powerhouse Oline to dominate the LOS for that O to work... and now they have no cap room since they paid - Donald, Cooks, Goff, Gurley, Woods, Higbee, Havenstein... even Hekker.  They also will have to negotiate with or trade ramsey this offseason - and they carry about 25 mil in cap space including what they carry over. 

 

They can't really extend anyone, and there aren't cap savings to cut anyone from that group.  They have no first round pick in the next 2 drafts... and their oline (which isn't very good right now) will probably get worse.  I still can't believe they extended gurley, huge mistake looking back.  Oh - and their best offensive player becomes a free agent in 2021.  Yikes...

 

Wentz is in need of like - 1 more target i think.  Sanders does look legit though - so that helps.  Jeffery is good but he doesn't scream like top dog #1 WR, I guess he's better than John Brown but i think he's just bigger.  Ertz is awesome... but agholor has hands of stone and desean jackson is always hurt (and old).  Arcega-Whiteside should be able to eventually fill that like #2 do-all guy (your robert woods type), but they could use someone in the slot with a bit more talent. 

 

2 young players, an all-pro TE, and a former 1000 yard receiver/RZ threat - just missing another chain mover.  If Emmanuel sanders has any tread left I think he'd fit nicely in there, allowing them to use the draft to focus on defense.

 

Goff has not been worked out so much as McVay's offense has been worked out. You are right they have lost talent on the OL - Whitworth's performance has finally dipped, Sullivan was done and released and Saffold went to Tennessee. You are also right that Gurley is not the player he was and paying him long term has proven a mistake. But fundamentally the issue is the offense has been figured out. Teams are ignoring all the motion and ignoring all the jet sweep action and playing McVay's offense the same way they are playing Denver's offense which is, substantially, the same stretch zone scheme. Now admittedly Goff hasn't yet demonstrated he can overcome.... but I think OLine and scheme predictability are higher on the list of problems the Rams have than Jared Goff.

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I can picture jerry pondering all night long " how can I get coach to fumble an answer and make myself look smart". Comparing a player's first 20 games of his career to a 7 year vet and his last 20 games is the best he could do?!?! He just made a fool/ass of himself and didn't even realize it. He was dumb enough to tweet it out, like he accomplished his goal. Idiot. Stuff like that usually comes from the cesspool called New York City media. I was going to say " jerry, you're better than this. Then I thought more about it and...no he's not.

Edited by Dopey
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9 hours ago, MJS said:

He wasn't asked about the change in points per game. He was asked about Allen vs Tyrod.

If the offense wasn't doing worse than it was with Taylor they wouldn't be asking dumb questions.  I agree with everyone that it's kind of a confrontational question but it's getting asked because the offense after 2 1/2 years is scoring less than 19 ppg.  The truth is easily that Roman's offense with Taylor was better than what we have now but we don't have Taylor and we don't have Roman.  I think Allen and Daboll will be fine but that's just my opinion and up to this point Daboll has not shown an ability to score more than 20ppg in any stop he's been at and Allen is still getting past some young QB turnover problems and a missing longball. 

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3 hours ago, mjt328 said:

I don't understand why it's SO DIFFICULT for people to have patience with a young QB.

 

 

I've been following this team for 30 years.  These exact same reporters (Sullivan) crucify the Bills front office every single time they pass on a QB in the draft, and instead choose to roll with a veteran like Drew Bledsoe, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Kyle Orton or Tyrod Taylor.  They complain incessantly about our GM wasting salary cap dollars paying for an average/below average passer.  They write their little op-ed pieces about how the Bills need to draft and develop a guy out of college, like all the other successful NFL franchises.

 

But when the Bills actually draft a young QB, they CANNOT WAIT to rip the guy to shreds.  Their hands are shaking at the keyboards, eagerly anticipating the day they can definitively call our young passer a bust.  It's amazing how quiet Sullivan has been this season, up until this week.  Now he is what?... suggesting the Bills shouldn't have drafted Allen and instead stuck with Taylor?  What a ridiculous load of nonsense.

 

When it comes to developing a QB, it's not about how you start.  It's about how you finish.  And even Josh Allen's biggest believers ALWAYS KNEW he was starting behind most 1st-Round level QBs.  He was coming from a small college, against very low-caliber competition.  His mechanics were poor.  His field vision and decision-making needed work.  He was a Number One Overall physical talent, with a mid-late round on-field production.  Even the draft critics who absolutely loved Allen, quantified their love by saying he needed LOTS of development and would take longer than other guys in the class like Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen.

 

I would say that comparing Allen's stats in the middle of his second season, to a veteran like Taylor who was in his seventh season is totally sad and pathetic.  Except, it's actually a huge positive.  If he's already playing at a similar level to Taylor, it tells me Allen is progressing quicker than most of his critics expected.  There is no doubt that Bills coaches expect Allen to be better than Taylor eventually.  Same with the fans.  But it's going to take time and patience.

 

You're basically saying that the media will criticize bad QBs regardless of whether they are signed in FA, traded for, or drafted.  What do you expect them to say?  "Buffalo's got the 31st rated passer in the league, but good news...at least they spent a ton of draft capital on him."

 

I don't think anyone would have criticized the team if the FA they signed was Peyton Manning or if the QB they drafted was Pat Mahomes.

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3 hours ago, mjt328 said:

I don't understand why it's SO DIFFICULT for people to have patience with a young QB.

 

It's not difficult for people who understand the game of football. It's mostly difficult for people who try to justify their deep football knowledge by first suggesting that (fill in the blank) will fail in the NFL and then return to message boards when the player isn't an immediate success to remind everyone how smart they were to see (fill in the blank) was going to be a failure.

 

It's lazy work because predicting failure in the NFL is THE single easiest thing to do. And I don't put a lot of stock in fans who wake up each day looking foward to seeing how many times they can post "I told you so."

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Just now, IDBillzFan said:

 

It's not difficult for people who understand the game of football. It's mostly difficult for people who try to justify their deep football knowledge by first suggesting that (fill in the blank) will fail in the NFL and then return to message boards when the player isn't an immediate success to remind everyone how smart they were to see (fill in the blank) was going to be a failure.

 

It's lazy work because predicting failure in the NFL is THE single easiest thing to do. And I don't put a lot of stock in fans who wake up each day looking foward to seeing how many times they can post "I told you so."

Well put. Predicting a young player washes out of the league has zero to do with anything except playing the odds. It doesn't make you smart, or insightful, or knowledgeable about what you're talking about. It just makes you lazy.

 

And predicting that a young player ON YOUR TEAM washes out is the height of ***** miserable stupidity and I don't know why anyone would waste time out of their day doing it.

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Tyrod kept Baker on the bench for 1.5 games right? At this point I’d think if you put Mayfield on this Bills team and Allen on Cleveland we’d be looking at a 3-6 Bills team and 6-3 Browns.

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Someone should ask Jerry if his first 20 columns at the Niagara Gazette were as predictable as his last 20 columns at the Buffalo News. 

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4 hours ago, mjt328 said:

I don't understand why it's SO DIFFICULT for people to have patience with a young QB.

 

Should we have been this patient with EJ?

Edited by reddogblitz

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4 hours ago, mjt328 said:

I don't understand why it's SO DIFFICULT for people to have patience with a young QB.

 

 

I've been following this team for 30 years.  These exact same reporters (Sullivan) crucify the Bills front office every single time they pass on a QB in the draft, and instead choose to roll with a veteran like Drew Bledsoe, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Kyle Orton or Tyrod Taylor.  They complain incessantly about our GM wasting salary cap dollars paying for an average/below average passer.  They write their little op-ed pieces about how the Bills need to draft and develop a guy out of college, like all the other successful NFL franchises.

 

But when the Bills actually draft a young QB, they CANNOT WAIT to rip the guy to shreds.  Their hands are shaking at the keyboards, eagerly anticipating the day they can definitively call our young passer a bust.  It's amazing how quiet Sullivan has been this season, up until this week.  Now he is what?... suggesting the Bills shouldn't have drafted Allen and instead stuck with Taylor?  What a ridiculous load of nonsense.

 

When it comes to developing a QB, it's not about how you start.  It's about how you finish.  And even Josh Allen's biggest believers ALWAYS KNEW he was starting behind most 1st-Round level QBs.  He was coming from a small college, against very low-caliber competition.  His mechanics were poor.  His field vision and decision-making needed work.  He was a Number One Overall physical talent, with a mid-late round on-field production.  Even the draft critics who absolutely loved Allen, quantified their love by saying he needed LOTS of development and would take longer than other guys in the class like Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen.

 

I would say that comparing Allen's stats in the middle of his second season, to a veteran like Taylor who was in his seventh season is totally sad and pathetic.  Except, it's actually a huge positive.  If he's already playing at a similar level to Taylor, it tells me Allen is progressing quicker than most of his critics expected.  There is no doubt that Bills coaches expect Allen to be better than Taylor eventually.  Same with the fans.  But it's going to take time and patience.

 

Have a look around the league.


These guys don't get forever.

 

As I mention every day around here, EJ Manuel was sized up, analyzed, and spit out in FOURTEEN GAMES.

 

That was it.

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

Tyrod kept Baker on the bench for 1.5 games right? At this point I’d think if you put Mayfield on this Bills team and Allen on Cleveland we’d be looking at a 3-6 Bills team and 6-3 Browns.

No way no how. We won games despite Allen not because of him this year. We would at least be 6-3 with almost anyone at QB. 

Edited by ngbills
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59 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't know why anyone would waste time out of their day doing it.

 

Because to these people, the desire to say "I told you so" is greater than the desire to be a fan.

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2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

No, the whole point of the post was even if Tyrod=Josh, the Bills are paying a lot less for Josh than they would have paid Tyrod.  


The Bills paid picks 12, 53 and 56 for Allen. Plus a fully guaranteed $21M contract over 4 years.  That’s a lot.  I am absolutely not saying that Tyrod should’ve been the answer, but don’t act like Allen didn’t cost a lot. 

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39 minutes ago, syhuang said:

 

Lets pick Tyrod in a playoff game that he didnt play well with Allen against a 2-6 team. Yeah that makes sense. Pointless.

 

I am not care about any Tyrod vs Allen or want Tyrod back. Point in my mind is simply this offense is not good enough. The Bills chose to move on from Tyrod or whoever and it has not equaled that level of production yet after 2.5+ years. That is a concern. 

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I’ve purposely avoided this topic because I like Josh and liked Tyrod. I only came here because it was chat Bills here or talk about whether Chris Brown should move over from lead journalist to college scout. This just felt like a more intelligent conversation.

 

With that being said there are some similarities between the 2 both good and bad. They are both quality game managers and have winning records because of it. That’s not a bad thing. It was time for the Bills to move on from Tyrod. He was a guy that could win by game managing. In order to take the next step the Bills needed a QB that would occasionally take over a game and win it on his own. Josh has the ability to do it but hasn’t quite done it. He was raw coming out and has needed time to develop. He is getting better but still leaving too many plays on the field. 
 

At this point their production is similar and the hope is that Josh will continue to progress. Hopefully, he hasn’t reached his ceiling. As I said with Tyrod, the grass isn’t always greener. Josh is better than a bunch of guys playing. It’s just a matter of him elevating his game from serviceable to good to great, etc...

Edited by Kirby Jackson
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52 minutes ago, syhuang said:

 

 

 

Tyrod Taylor All Qb-grid Chart

 

Josh Allen All Qb-grid Chart

2016 Tyrod

Tyrod Taylor  Qb-grid Chart

Edited by ngbills

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while we are on Tyrod Taylor train......

 

 

 

------------------------------------

 

https://www.barstoolsports.com/chicago/mind-blown-tyrod-taylor-and-lamar-jackson-are-practically-identical-through-their-first-16-starts#scrollToComments

 

Tyrod:

f9bb2bdbbbf8.png

 

 

Lamar:

 

e13ab6c228d2.png

 

Obviously more yards and tuddies from Lamar but over double the attempts. Y/A is within a 2% margin and objectively Lamar has much, MUCH more talent around him on the ground which makes it even more preposterous. Really think about how much Lamar ball washing is going on right now vs. how fast Tyrod gets run out of places vs. how ***** impossible it would be to lump these two together through their first 16 starts. 

 

------------------------------------

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30 minutes ago, ngbills said:

 

 

Tyrod Taylor All Qb-grid Chart

 

Josh Allen All Qb-grid Chart

2016 Tyrod

Tyrod Taylor  Qb-grid Chart


Thank you.  Tyrod was significantly better than Allen during his time here (passer rating, QBR, DYAR) and I would not argue that he was good enough.  

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13 minutes ago, syhuang said:

while we are on Tyrod Taylor train......

 

 

 

------------------------------------

 

https://www.barstoolsports.com/chicago/mind-blown-tyrod-taylor-and-lamar-jackson-are-practically-identical-through-their-first-16-starts#scrollToComments

 

Tyrod:

f9bb2bdbbbf8.png

 

 

Lamar:

 

e13ab6c228d2.png

 

Obviously more yards and tuddies from Lamar but over double the attempts. Y/A is within a 2% margin and objectively Lamar has much, MUCH more talent around him on the ground which makes it even more preposterous. Really think about how much Lamar ball washing is going on right now vs. how fast Tyrod gets run out of places vs. how ***** impossible it would be to lump these two together through their first 16 starts. 

 

------------------------------------

Tyrod in the right system isnt a horrible option. Problem is you put yourself in a box that most teams would not want to be in. 

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1 minute ago, BarleyNY said:


Thank you.  Tyrod was significantly better than Allen during his time here (passer rating, QBR, DYAR) and I would not argue that he was good enough.  

Exactly. Tyrod was not good enough and Allen is not get enough (yet). Clearly Allen is greener and there is a chance, but not a guarantee, that he gets better. Mostly everyone here wants to see that happen. I think frustration comes from what we are seeing on the field being reminiscent of failed QB's of the past and hearing the familiar excuses about more time, changing systems, supporting cast, etc. 

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2 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

Tyrod kept Baker on the bench for 1.5 games right? At this point I’d think if you put Mayfield on this Bills team and Allen on Cleveland we’d be looking at a 3-6 Bills team and 6-3 Browns.

Huh? You think Mayfield would be worse with on a team with the #3 ranked defense than Allen would be on a team with the #17 ranked one (which we helped their ranking going up)?  I don’t know about that chief.  
 

that’s the whole thing with Allen. We aren’t winning because of him. I believe a bunch of qbs could be subbed in and we’d have just as many, if not more wins.  This is the most functional situation a young Bills qb has had in a long time. I wasn’t a fan of Tyrod because I thought he was a game manager. He won’t lose game singlehandedly but he won’t win you them either. I wanted more.  Now, I want more from the highest drafted qb in Bills history.  All I heard about how great the 2018 class was.  Why is the 2017 and 2019 ones looking so much better?  Why do we always have to be the team that wants 3 years for our guy to be good when undrafted rookie qbs can have huge games.  I love Allen as a person but let’s show something that looks elite.

Edited by C.Biscuit97

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