Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
bigbill

Oliver and Hockenson, do the Bills have enough

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

With DL players Gary, which I wouldn't take at 9, and Sweat having physical concerns, the Bills are in a sense knocked out of the top 9 derby which would appear to include Oliver and possibly Hockensen.

 

If so, no doubt, imo, as I play Captain Obvious, McBeane will be trying to move up or back.

Edited by I am the egg man

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mrags said:

Ira hard to go back and find what his playing weight was. I’ve seen a link ow that says he’s 300 at the age of 46ish.  

 

Googling his playing weight I’ve seen reports that he weighed up to 340ish at one point but lost close to 50lbs. 

 

To my eyes, just looking at them, it’s not close. Sapp was far larger and it’s not close. 

 

I may be WAY off, but Sapp was a lighter guy, under 300# when effective. He lived on his quickness. I googled it and got 300. I don’t think he was that. He was the lighter penetrator. Quick and disruptive. Anyway, he was known around town as a jerk. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Augie said:

 

I may be WAY off, but Sapp was a lighter guy, under 300# when effective. He lived on his quickness. I googled it and got 300. I don’t think he was that. He was the lighter penetrator. Quick and disruptive. Anyway, he was known around town as a jerk. 

He was a jerk. He was also an incredible ball player. But I think if he was 300, he was every bit of it. Looking at him, he looked larger. I think Oliver weighed in at the combine at 285. That 15lbs is actually a lot of weight. But I don’t think that’s just it, chances are he bilked up for the combine and played at a lower weight. Looking at him on film and in pics, he looks much smaller than Sapp. 

A1F30660-C8E8-4E87-842B-45B8CB70792F.jpeg

ABA1C4CC-41E6-4EB6-A247-9FD23C8D0757.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bigbill said:

I was just wondering if the Bills have enough draft capital to get both Oliver and Hockenson in the draft?

 

Who would you take at 9 with hopes the other player drops to 15, 16 or 17.

 

It seems both players would help to complete the offense and defense.

 

Any thought?

Oliver may not make it out of the top 3 and Hockenson likely will be gone by 15.  Would I be shocked in a draft so deep in DL that Hock and Fant fell to the late first round?  No.  Many on this board are probably correct in that teams don't value TE as first round position.  I disagree and would have no issue with Hockenson at 9 or Fant at 15ish.  I would prefer Fant and an extra pick.  But I don't see Oliver making it past the Bills at 9.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, mrags said:

He was a jerk. He was also an incredible ball player. But I think if he was 300, he was every bit of it. Looking at him, he looked larger. I think Oliver weighed in at the combine at 285. That 15lbs is actually a lot of weight. But I don’t think that’s just it, chances are he bilked up for the combine and played at a lower weight. Looking at him on film and in pics, he looks much smaller than Sapp. 

A1F30660-C8E8-4E87-842B-45B8CB70792F.jpeg

ABA1C4CC-41E6-4EB6-A247-9FD23C8D0757.jpeg

 

Fat Sapp was not the best Sapp. I’m NOT trying to say Oliver is HOF material today (as Sapp was) , but he’s not too different from A. Donald in weight. Less power, but I’d like to see him as a Bill.  The game has gotten lighter and faster, look at LB’s. It’s all about quick pressure on the QB, best done up the gut. The game has evolved.  Good thing I don’t get to decide, as a guy who watches from his couch. I’ll trust the FO. 

 

 

Edited by Augie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Oliver may not make it out of the top 3 and Hockenson likely will be gone by 15.  Would I be shocked in a draft so deep in DL that Hock and Fant fell to the late first round?  No.  Many on this board are probably correct in that teams don't value TE as first round position.  I disagree and would have no issue with Hockenson at 9 or Fant at 15ish.  I would prefer Fant and an extra pick.  But I don't see Oliver making it past the Bills at 9.  

 

You are ok with waiting 2-4 years for your TE to develop and contribute more than 40 catches and 500 yards?

 

This is the level of production you can expect with your first rd pick:

 

image.thumb.png.37655f039a2c75b8f1670be60dd6469e.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually think it's very possible if two things happen.

 

1. Teams picking ahead of us go for at least one QB but two would be better.

 

2. Ed Oliver is there at #9 without us trading up.

 

If we stay put and Oliver is there at 9, you get Oliver and then we have more than enough resources to move back in the 1st to get Hock but it'll cost alot...

 

This draft is crazy. So much talent and I don't even scout college players the way most of you guys do. I just can tell it's loaded with talent from the little bit of research I've done. Which is why a dream scenario for me would be to trade down ONLY if Oliver is gone by #9 to anywhere between the 12th and 17th pick and pick up another 2nd and a 4th for this year (I believe moving from 9th to 17th will get us a 1st for next year also but I'm not sure).

Then we could bundle one of our 2nd round picks with our 3rd and a 5th to move back into the 1st. That way we have two 1st round picks AND a second round pick... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Fat Sapp was not the best Sapp. I’m NOT trying to say Oliver is HOF material today (as Sapp was) , but he’s not too different from A. Donald in weight. Less power, but I’d like to see him as a Bill.  The game has gotten lighter and faster, look at LB’s. It’s all about quick pressure on the QB, best done up the gut. The game has evolved.  Good thing I don’t get to decide, as a guy who watches from his couch. I’ll trust the FO. 

 

 

I get it. I don’t agree with it, but I get it. The Donald argument has been debated ad nauseam. For one, Donald is the best in football. He’s also the exception, not the rule. 

 

I just don’t see Oliver being effective. I hope we don’t get him. But if we do, I’ll be pulling for him just any other Bill. And I’ll hope this FO knows what they’re doing. 

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mrags said:

I get it. I don’t agree with it, but I get it. The Donald argument has been debated ad nauseam. For one, Donald is the best in football. He’s also the exception, not the rule. 

 

I just don’t see Oliver being effective. I hope we don’t get him. But if we do, I’ll be pulling for him just any other Bill. And I’ll hope this FO knows what they’re doing. 

 

I’m with you! Time will tell. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, mrags said:

He was a jerk. He was also an incredible ball player. But I think if he was 300, he was every bit of it. Looking at him, he looked larger. I think Oliver weighed in at the combine at 285. That 15lbs is actually a lot of weight. But I don’t think that’s just it, chances are he bilked up for the combine and played at a lower weight. Looking at him on film and in pics, he looks much smaller than Sapp. 

A1F30660-C8E8-4E87-842B-45B8CB70792F.jpeg

ABA1C4CC-41E6-4EB6-A247-9FD23C8D0757.jpeg

 

From all I’ve seen, sapp peaked at 334 lbs but entered the league at 285 and returned to that weight for the raiders. 

 

It seems you found a pic at his heaviest there

  • Thanks! (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't waste too much time worrying about defensive players not drafted at this point.  All focus should be on have we and are we adequately building around Josh Allen.  

 

I want to be good enough on defense along with a talented defensive minded head coach.  I want to be a team built on offense to give Allen every chance to be great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, White Linen said:

I don't waste too much time worrying about defensive players not drafted at this point.  All focus should be on have we and are we adequately building around Josh Allen.  

 

I want to be good enough on defense along with a talented defensive minded head coach.  I want to be a team built on offense to give Allen every chance to be great.

I’m sure they will get plenty of attention in the draft, but I’m amazed at what they accomplished in FA. 

 

Go BPA early! Get elite talent! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

From all I’ve seen, sapp peaked at 334 lbs but entered the league at 285 and returned to that weight for the raiders. 

 

It seems you found a pic at his heaviest there

Really?

 

C7B276A2-D751-4EC2-90B4-25968C27628F.jpeg

 

 

 

Id also argue that his best football came when he played at a heavier weight with the Bucs. 

Edited by mrags

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mrags said:

Really?

 

C7B276A2-D751-4EC2-90B4-25968C27628F.jpeg

 

 

 

Id also argue that his best football came when he played at a heavier weight with the Bucs. 

 

There were some pretty detailed articles that popped right up. Mayday be fabricated. Lying about weights was likely pretty common 25 years ago. But yea pretty specific in the weights listed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

There were some pretty detailed articles that popped right up. Mayday be fabricated. Lying about weights was likely pretty common 25 years ago. But yea pretty specific in the weights listed.

 

Plus the game has changed dramatically in the last 25 years. I’m not saying I know what’s best because I’m an expert, but I doubt Oliver is available as an option. If he is, and we pass, I’ll trust the pros who do this for a living. If they fail? We can still pay the mortgage. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

There were some pretty detailed articles that popped right up. Mayday be fabricated. Lying about weights was likely pretty common 25 years ago. But yea pretty specific in the weights listed.

Like this one that was written in the spring of 2007? It states that he just lost 50lbs from 334 to 285? 

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=2862119

 

Then pair it with his stats for the year and you see that he only had 2 sacks that season. Which was also his final season 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SappWa00.htm

 

His best seasons were played with much more weight in his frame. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, mrags said:

Like this one that was written in the spring of 2007? It states that he just lost 50lbs from 334 to 285? 

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=2862119

 

Then pair it with his stats for the year and you see that he only had 2 sacks that season. Which was also his final season 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SappWa00.htm

 

His best seasons were played with much more weight in his frame. 

 

BTW your concern is a real one and one that prevents him from being labeled as the top player in the draft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BillsfaninSB said:

Getting Fant is possible late 1st. 

 

Drops WAY too many balls to be taken seriously in the first.  I like the kid, but late 2nd-Early third is where I'll leave him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

BTW your concern is a real one and one that prevents him from being labeled as the top player in the draft.

I know that. I know there’s a few people that share this opinion with me. But I just don’t understand why there’s so many that think this kid is the 2nd coming of Reggie White. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, mrags said:

I know that. I know there’s a few people that share this opinion with me. But I just don’t understand why there’s so many that think this kid is the 2nd coming of Reggie White. 

 

OH, he’s NOT that! Reggie was greatness. This guy could be a quick penetrator, a disruptor. He’s a freak athlete. Quicker than RB’s at combine? The game is going to the quick because of the rules. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, #34fan said:

 

Drops WAY too many balls to be taken seriously in the first.  I like the kid, but late 2nd-Early third is where I'll leave him.

 

MANY legit draft analysts mocked him in the 1st round including Peter King.  So yes, I took him seriously. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

OH, he’s NOT that! Reggie was greatness. This guy could be a quick penetrator, a disruptor. He’s a freak athlete. Quicker than RB’s at combine? The game is going to the quick because of the rules. 

You know who else was quick? Aaron Maybin 

  • Haha (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

You are ok with waiting 2-4 years for your TE to develop and contribute more than 40 catches and 500 yards?

 

This is the level of production you can expect with your first rd pick:

 

image.thumb.png.37655f039a2c75b8f1670be60dd6469e.png

Nothing in those stats would have something to do with going from Tyrod to Josh?

  • Haha (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, mrags said:

Its hard to go back and find what his playing weight was. I’ve seen a link ow that says he’s 300 at the age of 46ish.  

 

Googling his playing weight I’ve seen reports that he weighed up to 340ish at one point but lost close to 50lbs. 

 

To my eyes, just looking at them, it’s not close. Sapp was far larger and it’s not close. 

 

 

Sapp sometimes was far larger, as he did have a problem with getting fat. But when he was at his best he was not all that big a guy.

 

Here's another story of him playing at 315 while fat and having a poor year for sacks and then reporting the next year "in the high 280s.". Except unlike your story, this wasn't when Sapp was near the end of his career with the Raiders, it was between his fourth and fifth years in Tampa, well before the Super Bowl win.

 

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1999-08-07-9908070161-story.html

 

The thing that made Sapp exceptional was his extreme quickness. Yeah, he was strong too, but it was his speed that made him frightening.

 

At the combine, he weighed in at 281, and even that light had a BMI of 37.97.  30 and over is obese, and yeah, most interior linemen would qualify, but even at 281 he was no sylph.

 

http://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?f=Warren&l=Sapp&i=23696

 

Just went back and looked at the video of the Super Bowl win, and he's just not as big as your fat photos up there. He's still got a belly, but not the size of the photos higher up on this page.

 

 

 

In any case, there are guys who've played very well on the interior at lower weights. Jay Ratliff is a good example, and he played nose tackle. Most of those lighter players are exactly Oliver's type, penetrators. And Oliver has been terrific against the run even at his weight.

Edited by Thurman#1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, BillsfaninSB said:

 

MANY legit draft analysts mocked him in the 1st round including Peter King. 

 

I wouldn't give a damn if they did...  I saw some of those drops, and they were bad... Game-killers at times.... Can't have a butter-fingered TE. -Sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...