Tremaine Edmunds: He was the worst player on the field Dec 23 (vs NE)

[LSHMEAB]

2 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I agree and he is not showing it.  The question is can he become that.

I personally cannot logically answer that yet.  I just think no one can.

 

I thought the "end of the world"ers" quote was a unique take and was said more in jest.

I don't know man. There seems to be a lot of heat for anyone that questions anything this organization does right now. Never seen anything like it. I hope their optimism comes to fruition. Any way you slice it, Beane, McDermott and Allen are the toast of the town right now. 

[formerlyofCtown]

5 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I agree and he is not showing it.  The question is can he become that.

I personally cannot logically answer that yet.  I just think no one can.

 

I thought the "end of the world"ers" quote was a unique take and was said more in jest.

 

Yes, drafting or FA pickup would be prudent and I said the same yesterday in this thread.

As to Carolina and Keuchly.......of course they don't,  they have a "proven" guy.

Bills don't have that question answered with Edmunds yet.

I guess we should be concerned I mean hes been in the league a few years now and hes already 20 years old.  Its not like he leads Rookie LBs in certain statistical catagories.

Coordinating an NFL defense is a tall task for a 20 year old.  I will reserve all judgement for this time next year.  I understand the frustration and the let down but its a work in progress.

[BADOLBILZ]

4 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

I guess we should be concerned I mean hes been in the league a few years now and hes already 20 years old.  Its not like he leads Rookie LBs in certain statistical catagories.

Coordinating an NFL defense is a tall task for a 20 year old.  I will reserve all judgement for this time next year.  I understand the frustration and the let down but its a work in progress.

 

 

There is no need for hyperbole...........he played 3 years at VA Tech.......started a ton of games at a position that was very similar to playing MLB........the ACC is not the NFL.......but it's not like LVE playing 7 man football in the sticks of Idaho 4 years ago and then coming into the NFL after playing about half as many snaps as Edmunds in college and making the plays the more experienced son of a pro bowl NFL player cannot.

 

The point is.........he hasn't been good and there is cause for concern.    Vast improvement at the MLB position is less common than good ones hitting the ground running at the NFL level.

 

If he becomes the new standard great.............if not...........also fine........MLB's are a relative dime-a-dozen.

 

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

9 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

I guess we should be concerned I mean hes been in the league a few years now and hes already 20 years old.  Its not like he leads Rookie LBs in certain statistical catagories.

Coordinating an NFL defense is a tall task for a 20 year old.  I will reserve all judgement for this time next year.  I understand the frustration and the let down but its a work in progress.

 

 

......why is that so hard to understand if previous posts say he is out of his natural, collegiate position?....guess I missed the memo...then again, a 20 yr old rook with 14 starts at this level has a sufficient body of work to define a "career" ans well as earn "bust" label....

[Logic]

57 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Where are all the plays that indicate how good he is?

 

Go back and watch that Chargers game and tell me that wasn't one of THE WORST days an NFL LB has ever had in coverage.

 

He has had a rough first year in coverage............"not good" might be a bit kind, even.

 

Nonsensical defense-takes like "Can he improve?" or "is he perfect?" are complete drivel...........it's like McDermott constantly telling the media "Would we like to score 50 points every week?  Sure." when explaining away the leagues second worst scoring offense...........it's point-free misdirection.......a "faux" perspective-giver to avoid the discussing the issue.

Here's a whole article about how, while he has room for improvement, he already IS improving. It comes with video examples of both good and bad plays against the run and pass. My contention is that while he has lots of room for improvement, he has ALREADY shown major improvement. To say that he just can't or won't CONTINUE to improve is just as much of a guess as my saying that he will improve. No one knows. The fact that he is CURRENTLY improving (remember, player growth is not a straight line trending up, it's often an up-and-down process) leads me to believe that he hasn't yet reached his full potential.

https://www.cover1.net/tremaine-edmunds-new-york-jets/


"Bob Babich, his position coach, and I talk about that often. Sometimes we’re having meetings and we’re just talking and leading meetings, and we talk about all the things that we put on his plate, and then you realize how young he is, and the fact that it’s a new position, because he was an outside linebacker in college. Now, you’re a middle linebacker in the National Football League, so young at what he’s doing, to see his growth is just incredible. You have high hopes for his future. He’s just going to keep getting better and better." -DC Leslie Frazier

-and-

"Those who believe that Edmunds was over-drafted or not worth the selection may not truly understand what he is asked to do. Most fans will chalk up Frazier’s statement about Edmunds becoming more “comfortable in this system” or how “his communication, handling all the different things that show up during a ball game that he struggled with early in the season” as coach-speak, but you will see all of those things in action in this article."

 

[Ittakestime]

He was the exact same way in college.  Like I said in April, he is not a MLB.  Amazes me Beane gets paid to make these decisions.

 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

8 minutes ago, Logic said:

Here's a whole article about how, while he has room for improvement, he already IS improving. It comes with video examples of both good and bad plays against the run and pass. My contention is that while he has lots of room for improvement, he has ALREADY shown major improvement. To say that he just can't or won't CONTINUE to improve is just as much of a guess as my saying that he will improve. No one knows. The fact that he is CURRENTLY improving (remember, player growth is not a straight line trending up, it's often an up-and-down process) leads me to believe that he hasn't yet reached his full potential.

https://www.cover1.net/tremaine-edmunds-new-york-jets/


"Bob Babich, his position coach, and I talk about that often. Sometimes we’re having meetings and we’re just talking and leading meetings, and we talk about all the things that we put on his plate, and then you realize how young he is, and the fact that it’s a new position, because he was an outside linebacker in college. Now, you’re a middle linebacker in the National Football League, so young at what he’s doing, to see his growth is just incredible. You have high hopes for his future. He’s just going to keep getting better and better." -DC Leslie Frazier

-and-

"Those who believe that Edmunds was over-drafted or not worth the selection may not truly understand what he is asked to do. Most fans will chalk up Frazier’s statement about Edmunds becoming more “comfortable in this system” or how “his communication, handling all the different things that show up during a ball game that he struggled with early in the season” as coach-speak, but you will see all of those things in action in this article."

 

 

 

The game against the Chargers was arguably the most abused a MLB has ever been in a game for the Bills.   

 

So yeah.......if you keep the bar low you can easily claim improvement since then.

 

But where are the plays?

 

The question isn't whether he can get better at the "learnable",  experience aspects it's whether a lack of instincts for the position can be overcome.

 

We talked about Manny Lawson upthread.............that's the thing that always kept him yo-yo'ing in and out of lineups..........just consistently being unable to make plays he seemingly should due to reactions compromised by a lack of instincts.

 

 

 

 

[CaptnCoke11]

He’s been pretty bad.  He has a long way to go just to be average.  

[Victory Formation]

8 minutes ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

He’s been pretty bad.  He has a long way to go just to be average.  

He's an EDGE/DE/OLB in my mind and I think he can be a good one. A good MLB? No. But I think he can be a force of nature, he is not being utilized correctly. Why they are not blitzing him more often I have no clue because I can think of a few really good plays Edmunds made when they let him attack instead of react.

[formerlyofCtown]

1 hour ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

......why is that so hard to understand if previous posts say he is out of his natural, collegiate position?....guess I missed the memo...then again, a 20 yr old rook with 14 starts at this level has a sufficient body of work to define a "career" ans well as earn "bust" label....

Im done arguing with you.  Younprobably cant ever tell me his stats on the year.  He has been very effective against the pass.  Statistically he has had a good year.  He has made a few mistakes.  No point in talking to a wall.

[CaptnCoke11]

13 minutes ago, NewDayBills said:

He's an EDGE/DE/OLB in my mind and I think he can be a good one. A good MLB? No. But I think he can be a force of nature, he is not being utilized correctly. Why they are not blitzing him more often I have no clue because I can think of a few really good plays Edmunds made when they let him attack instead of react.

He needs to play in space.  He’s going to struggle at the point of contact.  He’s just not very aggressive 

[formerlyofCtown]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Your response is the epitome of oversimplification.

 

Edmunds has not been good in coverage.   He's not been in receivers back pockets by any means and he's been utterly abused time and again on play action fakes.

 

You want to see good coverage from a MLB?   Go back and watch journeyman Julian Stanford's one snap in place of Edmunds in the Lions game.

 

Good reaction......strong close......hand in to knock the ball out at the sideline.

 

THAT is what is expected of a solid MLB in todays game.  

 

 

If Im not mistaken he leads all Rookie LBs in  passes defensed and has a bunch of QB hits.

[Victory Formation]

Just now, CaptnCoke11 said:

He needs to play in space.  He’s going to struggle at the point of contact.  He’s just not very aggressive 

That's what he's been doing, sitting back and reacting instead of shooting gaps, blitzing and rushing the QB. He is so fast that he can glide past tackles, he just needs to work on his moves. Guy is 6'5 255-260 that's not really what you want in a MLB and he's still growing. He would be an All Pro as a 3-4 OLB. Edmunds should be moved all over the field, he is way more valuable to us in that capacity.

[Pbomb]

1 hour ago, Ittakestime said:

He was the exact same way in college.  Like I said in April, he is not a MLB.  Amazes me Beane gets paid to make these decisions.

 

 

 

Has it really been a long year for the defense, they had a couple bad games against the run

[dabills21]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The game against the Chargers was arguably the most abused a MLB has ever been in a game for the Bills.   

 

So yeah.......if you keep the bar low you can easily claim improvement since then.

 

But where are the plays?

 

The question isn't whether he can get better at the "learnable",  experience aspects it's whether a lack of instincts for the position can be overcome.

 

We talked about Manny Lawson upthread.............that's the thing that always kept him yo-yo'ing in and out of lineups..........just consistently being unable to make plays he seemingly should due to reactions compromised by a lack of instincts.

 

 

 

 

Manny Lawson is a horrible comp...

 

Try Ryan Shazier, as I mentioned last night.  Both came into the NFL needing to improve on strength/block shedding and play recognition.  Like Edmunds, Shazier had a rookie season of ups and downs, but constantly improved (though Shazier struggled with injuries his 1st season). 

 

I wish I could watch a game with some of you guys, Badolbilz and scottlaw.  I'd put my football background and credentials up against yours anyway of the week.  It really frustrated me with people who seem to know what responsibilities players have, it's a team game and th way our defense is constructed we need our dline to do a better job of keeping our Lbs clean.  That didnt happen yesterday.  With all the Jet sweeps, wham blocks, and stretch plays, our dline played horrible.

 

Check out what Logic posted from Cover1, and go learn something.  Otherwise, PM me and I'll meet you sometime to watch a game. Like I said, would be fun to chat live and point out what you should be looking at

[dabills21]

5 minutes ago, dabills21 said:

Manny Lawson is a horrible comp...

 

Try Ryan Shazier, as I mentioned last night.  Both came into the NFL needing to improve on strength/block shedding and play recognition.  Like Edmunds, Shazier had a rookie season of ups and downs, but constantly improved (though Shazier struggled with injuries his 1st season). 

 

I wish I could watch a game with some of you guys, Badolbilz and scottlaw.  I'd put my football background and credentials up against yours anyway of the week.  It really frustrated me with people who seem to know what responsibilities players have, it's a team game and th way our defense is constructed we need our dline to do a better job of keeping our Lbs clean.  That didnt happen yesterday.  With all the Jet sweeps, wham blocks, and stretch plays, our dline played horrible.

 

Check out what Logic posted from Cover1, and go learn something.  Otherwise, PM me and I'll meet you sometime to watch a game. Like I said, would be fun to chat live and point out what you should be looking at

I'll also point out, that everyone should go back and watch some replays, if you're available to.

 

You'll notice double digit run attempts that the Pats motioning WR or TE "crack" down on the outside defender and leave Wallace to make a 1-1 tackle outside...which I admit that Wallace has shown promise in coverage, but he really needs to improve his tackling.   And the jet sweeps...ive never seen a defense so incapable of stopping this.  The Bills defensive ends and OlBs did not adjust to this at all.

 

Like many have said, not having Milano really hurt.  I think we can appreciate him a little more after this poor effort.  The Bills lack of depth at LB really hurts.  When you have to start a rookie UDFA and an aging (who is best suited as a sub package player, not fulltime, in Zo) this is the outcome.

 

Again, go ahead and say the unit played horribly...dont single out a player, 1 of 11.  These are the moments that we wish that we could fast forward 1-2 years and say "I told you so"...but don't worry I'll be here waiting and ready to bring this back up

 

 

[John from Riverside]

Finally got a chance to watch the game and I gotta agree with Bado....Edmunds was not good yesterday.......

 

I always get concerned when I see a MLB standing next to a tackle after the play is over and not IN on the tackle......that was happening a lot yesterday

 

His worst game as a bill I thought

[BADOLBILZ]

21 minutes ago, dabills21 said:

Manny Lawson is a horrible comp...

 

Try Ryan Shazier, as I mentioned last night.  Both came into the NFL needing to improve on strength/block shedding and play recognition.  Like Edmunds, Shazier had a rookie season of ups and downs, but constantly improved (though Shazier struggled with injuries his 1st season). 

 

I wish I could watch a game with some of you guys, Badolbilz and scottlaw.  I'd put my football background and credentials up against yours anyway of the week.  It really frustrated me with people who seem to know what responsibilities players have, it's a team game and th way our defense is constructed we need our dline to do a better job of keeping our Lbs clean.  That didnt happen yesterday.  With all the Jet sweeps, wham blocks, and stretch plays, our dline played horrible.

 

Check out what Logic posted from Cover1, and go learn something.  Otherwise, PM me and I'll meet you sometime to watch a game. Like I said, would be fun to chat live and point out what you should be looking at

 

Again......I've followed the Cover1 footage of Edmunds...........I enjoy their work but don't always agree entirely with their conclusions.

 

And as I said........Shazier is at least an interesting comparison.

 

But anyone who followed Shazier at Ohio State knew he was over-aggressive and basically out-of-control violent and he needed to reign that in to take advantage of his great speed and quickness.

 

Edmunds is just flat out lost in traffic most of the time.

 

But I've been on here for 20 years now and I have had lots of people like yourself tell me how wrong I was because they played that position in college or coached some HS football or whatever and the reality is that I'm almost always right if I am talking about it.     

 

I'd love it if Edmunds turned into what looked like an instinctive all-pro beast of a MLB............it's duly noted that you are certain he will, coach.    

 

[BillsSB2020]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Again......I've followed the Cover1 footage of Edmunds...........I enjoy their work but don't always agree entirely with their conclusions.

 

And as I said........Shazier is at least an interesting comparison.

 

But anyone who followed Shazier at Ohio State knew he was over-aggressive and basically out-of-control violent and he needed to reign that in to take advantage of his great speed and quickness.

 

Edmunds is just flat out lost in traffic most of the time.

 

But I've been on here for 20 years now and I have had lots of people like yourself tell me how wrong I was because they played that position in college or coached some HS football or whatever and the reality is that I'm almost always right if I am talking about it.     

 

I'd love it if Edmunds turned into what looked like an instinctive all-pro beast of a MLB............it's duly noted that you are certain he will, coach.    

 

I wish Ruben Foster would a had a pair of those shades when the ball got lost in the sun.? It seems to be that Edmunds is a fresh faced rookie and the expectation is that it will all slow down for him next season. Perhaps they need a run plugger for the middle and a jackrabbit out of the backfield to shore up the middle areas but those guys are usually available on the open market. 

[dabills21]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Again......I've followed the Cover1 footage of Edmunds...........I enjoy their work but don't always agree entirely with their conclusions.

 

And as I said........Shazier is at least an interesting comparison.

 

But anyone who followed Shazier at Ohio State knew he was over-aggressive and basically out-of-control violent and he needed to reign that in to take advantage of his great speed and quickness.

 

Edmunds is just flat out lost in traffic most of the time.

 

But I've been on here for 20 years now and I have had lots of people like yourself tell me how wrong I was because they played that position in college or coached some HS football or whatever and the reality is that I'm almost always right if I am talking about it.     

 

I'd love it if Edmunds turned into what looked like an instinctive all-pro beast of a MLB............it's duly noted that you are certain he will, coach.    

 

I appreciate that you at least consider and can respect my opinion.

 

I haven't been on here 20 years but respect that.  Hoping for a strong finish next week and progression by all of our young players this offseason...good times ahead