What will Daboll's offense look like?

[Sky Diver]

If you don't think talent matters, watch the first half and the second half of the Alabama vs Georgia game. The only difference was the QB.

 

Was it Daboll's fault that he couldn't elevate the play of the QB in the first half? An offensive coordinator isn't a miracle worker that can create a skill level that doesn't exist.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Sky Diver

[Your Brown Eye]

[Sky Diver]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Try to keep up, Diver.

 

The statements I have that you need to interpret are "So right on, good coordinators can pull out the best their players have to give.  That isn't Daboll's track record.  Has he learned something?  Or hasn't he?" and "The question is, did he get the best out of the talent he had?  DId he elevate it?  The only case where one might make that argument is the Dolphins.

The rest, you can't say he had top-notch talent, but you can't say he got their best years out of them, either."

 

That's his track record in the NFL as an OC.  The question is, has he learned something in the last 5 years as a position coach and a college OC, or hasn't he?  Time will tell.

 

To turn that into "he sucks and we hired a loser" is such a gimondulous stretch that I'm concerned about the health and integrity of your hamstrings. 

 

 

I'm missing what I need to keep up with? Has he learned anything? who knows. If not, we made a bad hire based on his track record, according to you. Correct me if I have misstated anything.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Sky Diver

[TigerJ]

Those who put Daboll down because of his past record as an OC should remember that Josh McDaniels was considered a hot candidate to be one of the new head coaches this offseason despite the fact that his previous stint as a head coach at Denver was a disaster, rife with questionable to downright stupid decisions.  The rationale has been that he's had an opportunity to learn from his mistakes.  Coaches sometimes do learn from their mistakes.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, Sky Diver said:

 

Unless you have a crystal ball and can predict the future, I don't see where we are heading with the discussion.

 

I am relaxed, dude and I added a highly intelligent comment. Maybe you missed it, dude.

"He's been hired by a lot of good coaches, including McDermott and they know more that we do. I choose to be optimistic."

 

No one has a crystal ball.  The whole point of this board is discussion.  If there's no point to discussion absent a crystal ball, the whole board has no point.

 

No comment is "highly intelligent" in the abstract.  You're responding to specific posts about Daboll's past record as an OC and whether or not it shows an ability to elevate poor offensive talent on a roster.  Therefore to say generally "he's been hired by a lot of good coaches who know more than we do"  or "he had bad talent in Cleveland" are un-responsive because it doesn't address the topic being discussed - which is Daboll's previous record as an NFL OC and whether or not it shows the ability to elevate poor offensive talent.

 

You could provide information about how the offensive talent in AL performed before and during Daboll's stint there, that would contribute.

4 minutes ago, Sky Diver said:

 

I'm missing what I need to keep up with? Has he learned anything? who knows. If not, we made a bad hire based on his track record, according to you. Correct me if I have misstated anything.

 

Sky Diver, do not misquote me or create "straw men" by distorting what I have said.  I have said nothing that is even remotely reasonably interpreted as "we made a bad hire based on his track record".  Consider yourself corrected - FOR THE SECOND TIME.

 

Where you need to "keep up" is in reading what people say more accurately and understanding the topic of discussion.

 

4 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

Those who put Daboll down because of his past record as an OC should remember that Josh McDaniels was considered a hot candidate to be one of the new head coaches this offseason despite the fact that his previous stint as a head coach at Denver was a disaster, rife with questionable to downright stupid decisions.  The rationale has been that he's had an opportunity to learn from his mistakes.  Coaches sometimes do learn from their mistakes.

 

Absolutely, people do learn and improve.  I'm not sure why comments like " Has he learned something?  Or hasn't he? " and  " The question is, has he learned something in the last 5 years as a position coach and a college OC, or hasn't he?  Time will tell. "  would seem to be entirely consistent with the possibility that coaches sometimes do learn.  So ask yourself why is it a put down, when it's consistent with what you say? 

 

I'll go further and point out that "getting the best out of poor talent" and "being a great, championship caliber OC" are not necessarily the same thing.

Example, I think it can be convincingly argued that Chan Gailey is a guy who can elevate talent on offense.  He demonstrated that in KC, Buff, and with the Jets.

But overall, I don't think he is a good OC.  I think he makes inconsistant situational playcall decisions and becomes predictable.

 

So let's say Daboll has poor talent or talent that needs time to develop in Buff this year and our offense struggles.  That won't say that he can't be a good OC, given an upgrade on talent next season.  But when the question is "what will our offense look like this season?" it's relevant to ask what can he do with the level of talent we've got this season.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, Sky Diver said:

If you don't think talent matters, watch the first half and the second half of the Alabama vs Georgia game. The only difference was the QB.

 

No one here has suggested that talent doesn't matter, so I'm not sure who you're addressing.

 

 

[Sky Diver]

2016

Team Stats

		Passing					Rushing				Total Offense			First Downs				Penalties		Turnovers
Split	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	TD	Att	Yds	Avg	TD	Plays	Yds	Avg	Pass	Rush	Pen	Tot	No.	Yds	Fum	Int	Tot
Offense	15	17.7	27.8	63.5	210.3	1.7	42.6	245.0	5.8	2.2	70.4	455.3	6.5	8.1	12.1	0.8	21.0	5.7	44.0	0.7	0.6	1.3
Defense	15	18.2	33.8	53.8	197.9	1.0	31.7	63.9	2.0	0.3	65.5	261.8	4.0	8.3	4.7	1.4	14.5	3.9	31.4	0.9	1.1	1.9
Difference		-0.5	-6.0	+9.7	+12.4	+0.7	+10.9	+181.1	+3.8	+1.9	+4.9	+193.5	+2.5	-0.2	+7.4	-0.6	+6.5	+1.8	+12.6	-0.2	-0.5	-0.6

 

2017

Team Stats

		Passing					Rushing				Total Offense			First Downs				Penalties		Turnovers
Split	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	TD	Att	Yds	Avg	TD	Plays	Yds	Avg	Pass	Rush	Pen	Tot	No.	Yds	Fum	Int	Tot
Offense	14	14.6	23.8	61.3	193.4	2.0	43.7	250.6	5.7	2.6	67.5	444.1	6.6	8.6	12.4	1.4	22.2	4.9	40.6	0.5	0.2	0.7
Defense	14	16.4	30.4	53.8	165.7	0.6	34.7	95.7	2.8	0.6	65.1	261.4	4.0	8.1	5.4	1.8	15.4	4.4	32.5	0.4	1.4	1.7
Difference		-1.8	-6.6	+7.5	+27.7	+1.4	+9.0	+154.9	+2.9	+2.0	+2.4	+182.7	+2.6	+0.5	+7.0	-0.4	+6.8	+0.5	+8.1	+0.1	-1.2	-1.0

 

Alabama team stats for 2016 vs 2017. Most values are per game averages. Rosters in college football turnover so much year to year, who knows what to make of this. At first glance, from the stats alone, the differences don't look statistically significant to me. Arguably the passing game wasn't as good.

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Sky Diver

[Sky Diver]

Allegedly. Daboll wanted to start Tua. Who knows what the numbers would have looked like in that case.

 

He couldn't elevate Hurts' game. Is that on Daboll? I don't know, but I don't think so. Hurts just isn't a good passer.

[aristocrat]

i tell you the kansas city offense in 2012 could be us. Charles rushing for just over 1500 yards but the pass game with cassel and quinn couldn't crack 2900 yards. they went 2-14. yikes. Their defense was ranked 20th.  The qbs totalled 8 tds and 20 picks...good lord. Our qbs can't be that bad right? That has to be the worst qb totals for a single season right?

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, PaattMaann said:

 

Considering Bodine has been a starter for four straight years in Cinci, I would list him (not saying he is a world beater, but has never NOT been a starter in the NFL). Zay Jones should not be discounted, he had a tough rookie season due to the space between his head...but I think he could crack "starter snaps" on some NFL teams for sure, not saying he would be a top two, but I think he can be competent. Kerley has been a slot starter for much of his career. Ivory has been a starter, at least shared carries throughout his career. We have no clue what we have in Allen at QB.

 

I am not saying we will be even close to the best offense in the NFL, but having half of your players as starter level across the NFL isn't NOTHING. We have question marks, so does more than half of the league. 

 

And bottom line, really good coordinators can mask deficiencies and help pull out the best of players talent. Track record isn't awesome for Daboll in that regard, but hopefully he has learned a thing or two over the past five seasons and we will see a different, more seasoned coordinator. My two cents.

 

That Bodine started for Cinci doesn't mean that he'd start elsewhere, including, according to some here on TWD, the Bills.  Zay Jones is a bust until he proves otherwise.  Kerley and Ivory are long past their primes.  No rookie QB is going to be good enough to start on most NFL teams because the learning curve is too steep, and Allen isn't considered pro ready -- his collegiate coaching simply wasn't good enough.

 

Quite frankly, the offense on this team is reminicent the Jauron era, both in the general lack of talent and in the HC's attitude towards offense.  I would like to be proven wrong but I don't expect to be.  Hopefully, Daboll is better than Dennison, but I'm not holding my breath on that, either.

 

1 hour ago, bobobonators said:

 

Its sounds like every other offense we have run over the last 25yrs. 

 

Sad but true.  I watch old videos of the Bills offense in the 1990s, and it saddens me that so many younger fans have never, ever seen the Bills regularly play well on offense.

 

32 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

Those who put Daboll down because of his past record as an OC should remember that Josh McDaniels was considered a hot candidate to be one of the new head coaches this offseason despite the fact that his previous stint as a head coach at Denver was a disaster, rife with questionable to downright stupid decisions.  The rationale has been that he's had an opportunity to learn from his mistakes.  Coaches sometimes do learn from their mistakes.

 

The thing is, McDaniels hasn't actually demonstrated that he HAS learned from his mistakes.  He was a brilliant OC when he left for the Broncos and failed as a HC.  He's still the OC for the Pats until Belichick hangs 'em up.

[Sky Diver]

If you have a meddling head coach that doesn't let the offensive coordinator execute his strategy, can you blame the coordinator? There is a lot that happens that we don't know about.

[SoTier]

6 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

i tell you the kansas city offense in 2012 could be us. Charles rushing for just over 1500 yards but the pass game with cassel and quinn couldn't crack 2900 yards. they went 2-14. yikes. Their defense was ranked 20th.  The qbs totalled 8 tds and 20 picks...good lord. Our qbs can't be that bad right? That has to be the worst qb totals for a single season right?

 

Word out of mini camp is that McCarren couldn't separate himself from Peterman or Allen, which is a scary scenario ... and a blueprint for a 2 or 3 win season.

[aristocrat]

6 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Word out of mini camp is that McCarren couldn't separate himself from Peterman or Allen, which is a scary scenario ... and a blueprint for a 2 or 3 win season.

 

well that's just mini camp so let's hope that means they're all playing at a level better than cassel or quinn

[Fadingpain]

I predict Daboll uses 11 players but only 1 QB on offense.

They'll run some and pass some.

 

 

[Sky Diver]

49 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Word out of mini camp is that McCarren couldn't separate himself from Peterman or Allen, which is a scary scenario ... and a blueprint for a 2 or 3 win season.

 

A little premature on the pronouncement, don't you think?

33 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

I predict Daboll uses 11 players but only 1 QB on offense.

They'll run some and pass some.

 

 

 

Rex frequently tried 12 and that didn't work out so well.

[eball]

54 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Word out of mini camp is that McCarren couldn't separate himself from Peterman or Allen, which is a scary scenario ... and a blueprint for a 2 or 3 win season.

 

Mini camp (i.e., running around in shorts) is for acclimating players to the organization.  Teaching the playbook, terminology, and positioning on the field w/ the assistance of coaches.  It is most certainly not "football."  What we wouldn't have wanted to see in mini camp is evidence that any of the three QBs "looked lost" or were making ridiculous errors.  I didn't hear any of that -- did you?

 

I believe it's silly to draw any conclusions from mini camp about the pecking order of the Bills' QBs.  Starting in three days we'll find out soon enough.

[Sky Diver]

The negativity is so over the top. Geez.

[teef]

i swear...some bills fans just aren't themselves unless their outlook is miserable.  

[Sky Diver]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

No one has a crystal ball.  The whole point of this board is discussion.  If there's no point to discussion absent a crystal ball, the whole board has no point.

 

No comment is "highly intelligent" in the abstract.  You're responding to specific posts about Daboll's past record as an OC and whether or not it shows an ability to elevate poor offensive talent on a roster.  Therefore to say generally "he's been hired by a lot of good coaches who know more than we do"  or "he had bad talent in Cleveland" are un-responsive because it doesn't address the topic being discussed - which is Daboll's previous record as an NFL OC and whether or not it shows the ability to elevate poor offensive talent.

 

You could provide information about how the offensive talent in AL performed before and during Daboll's stint there, that would contribute.

 

Sky Diver, do not misquote me or create "straw men" by distorting what I have said.  I have said nothing that is even remotely reasonably interpreted as "we made a bad hire based on his track record".  Consider yourself corrected - FOR THE SECOND TIME.

 

Where you need to "keep up" is in reading what people say more accurately and understanding the topic of discussion.

 

 

Absolutely, people do learn and improve.  I'm not sure why comments like " Has he learned something?  Or hasn't he? " and  " The question is, has he learned something in the last 5 years as a position coach and a college OC, or hasn't he?  Time will tell. "  would seem to be entirely consistent with the possibility that coaches sometimes do learn.  So ask yourself why is it a put down, when it's consistent with what you say? 

 

I'll go further and point out that "getting the best out of poor talent" and "being a great, championship caliber OC" are not necessarily the same thing.

Example, I think it can be convincingly argued that Chan Gailey is a guy who can elevate talent on offense.  He demonstrated that in KC, Buff, and with the Jets.

But overall, I don't think he is a good OC.  I think he makes inconsistant situational playcall decisions and becomes predictable.

 

So let's say Daboll has poor talent or talent that needs time to develop in Buff this year and our offense struggles.  That won't say that he can't be a good OC, given an upgrade on talent next season.  But when the question is "what will our offense look like this season?" it's relevant to ask what can he do with the level of talent we've got this season.

 

 

Curious why Chan Gailey was out of football for 2 years after the Bills fired him. 

 

 

[BigBuff423]

On 7/19/2018 at 11:18 AM, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

If they can reliably cause teams to muff punts, I am a-OK with them moving down the field that way. ?

 

I mean...who's not a fan of the "muff"....albeit, if they're going to put *that* on the field, I suggest making sure they're not built like football dudes....just a suggestion and I'm sure there are those who would be in favor, I am not one....

4 hours ago, Sky Diver said:

 

You need some modicum of talent. 

 

He took Miami from 30th offense to 20th.

 

Saban hired him. He can't be too bad.

 

Who knows. Maybe he sucks and we hired a loser. That seems to be what you are implying, unless I am misreading your sentiment. 

 

He's been hired by a lot of good coaches, including McDermott and they know more that we do. I choose to be optimistic.

 

I get it man....I'm optimistic as well. I think there are good reasons to be...but, to be fair the bedrock point is that we just don't know yet....I'm hoping he will be another true find for the Bills and a revelation of what hard work, dedication to professional development, and the right team culture can do for an up-and-coming Coordinator, but we just don't know for certain yet...for me, I''l give him a mulligan this year regardless and all the way into mid-year next year when I presume no matter what Josh Allen will be the starting QB (if not sooner of course) to see whether he's done the aforementioned improvement or whether McD and Beane need to look yet again....