@YardsPerPass interview on WGR - why he’s talked himself into Josh Allen

[BillsBytheBay]

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

 

 

31 minutes ago, Justice said:

Yes. I meant the coaches.

 

(Bolded)It’s funny you say that too. Timing patterns actually helps out weaker WRs. It helps them get open or at least open long enough to make the catch. The ball usually comes when the defender doesn’t expect it. Makes them harder to defend. This isn’t happening with Wyoming’s offense. He actually waits for them to get open. You know who else does that? Tyrod Taylor. 

You're literally speaking from your own misconceptions.  Every Source has cited that he can throw with anticipation that he does throw Guys open he can drop the ball on a dime.  His largest college drawback was hero ball. And I don't think that's a drawback in the pros. I have already stated that it's going to be a huge jumping Talent from Wyoming to the NFL. And I don't expect him to be the best quarterback in the rookie class this year. But he can literally do things that Aaron Rodgers may be the only other player in the league, can do.

 

Talk to text.... Sorry

Edited May 17, 2018 by JaxBills

[Justice]

1 minute ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Not a fact at all.

 

No you didn't. And it's not a highlight reel.

“No I didn’t”, what?

 

Ok. It’s not a highlight reel. It’s his game film. Better? That still doesn’t change the fact that he often drops back and waits. Maybe he has no choice. Maybe that’s the offense. Maybe his WRs aren’t getting open. Maybe he lacks a good inner clock. We’ll get all these answers soon enough. Hopefully he proves me wrong. QB is the toughest position to evaluate. Time will tell. One things for sure the excuses stop here. 

[John from Riverside]

2 minutes ago, Justice said:

“No I didn’t”, what?

 

Ok. It’s not a highlight reel. It’s his game film. Better? That still doesn’t change the fact that he often drops back and waits. Maybe he has no choice. Maybe that’s the offense. Maybe his WRs aren’t getting open. Maybe he lacks a good inner clock. We’ll get all these answers soon enough. Hopefully he proves me wrong. QB is the toughest position to evaluate. Time will tell. One things for sure the excuses stop here. 

Not trying to pile on here.....but just the fact that we need to wait and see which one it is kinda points to "Its not a well known fact"

[GimmeSomeProcess]

1 hour ago, BB@Shooter said:

 

All I know is I wanted one of the big 4 qbs in this draft. Allen was 4 on my list so yes I was disappointed we chose him over Rosen. However, I understand why the Bills gravitated towards him. And when I actually dug deep I saw what enmaroed him to Buffalo. They are swinging for the fences with him. 

 

Oh, and to compare him to EJ or JP is lauaghable. Those guys were 2nd to 3rd round graded prospects the entire process. The Bills reached for them. Allen was a consecious first round talent for a year and half 

[Justice]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

Not trying to pile on here.....but just the fact that we need to wait and see which one it is kinda points to "Its not a well known fact"

I trust my eyes and I’ve read many scouting reports that agree with that assessment. He didn’t play in a timing based offense so I think it’s fair to say neither of us really know if he’s capable or not. 

6 minutes ago, GimmeSomeProcess said:

All I know is I wanted one of the big 4 qbs in this draft. Allen was 4 on my list so yes I was disappointed we chose him over Rosen. However, I understand why the Bills gravitated towards him. And when I actually dug deep I saw what enmaroed him to Buffalo. They are swinging for the fences with him. 

 

Oh, and to compare him to EJ or JP is lauaghable. Those guys were 2nd to 3rd round graded prospects the entire process. The Bills reached for them. Allen was a consecious first round talent for a year and half 

That’s my thoughts exactly and we could’ve waited on one or the other and kept our second rounders. The Bills felt strongly enough to pounce on him and were even willing to move up even higher and pay more. Let’s hope they’re right. I too liked Rosen more but I have to admit his concussion

history is scary. 

 

I think people might compare him to those two because of his area code accuracy.  

[BillsBytheBay]

It seems like the only folks that weren't high on Allen was TV pundits and arm chair GMs.  And that hasn't changed.  I wonder why professional scouts and weekend warriors have such different views...  And should I trust guys on this blog, or the guys who drafted Tre Day after trading down.

 

The answer to that conundrum is:  nobody really knows. And it's easy to declare a guy a bust when you have nothing on the line. So I believe that I am always going to stick to the guys whose livelihood is at stake.

 

I don't care if McBean make any decision that makes any fan happy. Their decisions did take us to the playoffs last year.

 

Folks, they showed us a baby. It was real quick but I'm not ready to pretend like they didn't.

[GimmeSomeProcess]

5 minutes ago, Justice said:

I trust my eyes and I’ve read many scouting reports that agree with that assessment. He didn’t play in a timing based offense so I think it’s fair to say neither of us really know if he’s capable or not. 

That’s my thoughts exactly and we could’ve waited on one or the other and kept our second rounders. The Bills felt strongly enough to pounce on him and were even willing to move up even higher and pay more. Let’s hope they’re right. I too liked Rosen more but I have to admit his concussion

history is scary. 

 

I think people might compare him to those two because of his area code accuracy.  

I loved Rosen but going I had concerns he could be the next Sam Bradford. Productive when healthy but built stature wise to with stand the NFL punishment and no mobility to speak of. Looks like Carson palmer in the pocket but a lot more thin. Not a good recipe 

[Wayne Arnold]

20 minutes ago, Justice said:

“No I didn’t”, what?

 

Ok. It’s not a highlight reel. It’s his game film. Better? That still doesn’t change the fact that he often drops back and waits. Maybe he has no choice. Maybe that’s the offense. Maybe his WRs aren’t getting open. Maybe he lacks a good inner clock. We’ll get all these answers soon enough. Hopefully he proves me wrong. QB is the toughest position to evaluate. Time will tell. One things for sure the excuses stop here. 

 

No you didn't "seen" two out patterns Allen missed in the clips I added.

 

I'll repeat: Timing routes require wide receivers that have the ability to get separation on a consistent basis. Otherwise you're playing with fire no matter who your QB is. That's why you didn't see many (if any) of those type of routes in Wyoming's offensive system.

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, JaxBills said:

 

You're literally speaking from your own misconceptions.  Every Source has cited that he can throw with anticipation that he does throw Guys open he can drop the ball on a dime. 

 

I'm trying really hard to stay away from re-commenting on Josh Allen's game because he is here now, I support him and the proof of the pudding ultimately will be in the eating.  However, I am going to stick up for Justice a little here.... because the anticipatory thrower thing is to my mind a legitimate concern.  Here is what I said in my pre-draft QB evaluations thread: "Doesn’t demonstrate much ability to throw with anticipation. Hard to judge whether it is a timing issue or a trust issue with his receivers." (full post at: https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/203804-gunners-2018-draft-qb-evaluations/)

 

I still feel the same. There are not many anticipatory throws there on the film. How much it concerns you is a question of perception.  I certainly don't say that those who put that more on the receivers than on Allen are wrong - to my eye it is really hard to judge. Equally I don't think it is possible for anyone looking at the tape to know that it is on the receivers either.  Justice's observation on that particular point is absolutely a legitimate one to make based on the evidence in my humble opinion.  

 

 

[BuffaloHokie13]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I'm trying really hard to stay away from re-commenting on Josh Allen's game because he is here now, I support him and the proof of the pudding ultimately will be in the eating.  However, I am going to stick up for Justice a little here.... because the anticipatory thrower thing is to my mind a legitimate concern.  Here is what I said in my pre-draft QB evaluations thread: "Doesn’t demonstrate much ability to throw with anticipation. Hard to judge whether it is a timing issue or a trust issue with his receivers." (full post at: https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/203804-gunners-2018-draft-qb-evaluations/)

 

I still feel the same. There are not many anticipatory throws there on the film. How much it concerns you is a question of perception.  I certainly don't say that those who put that more on the receivers than on Allen are wrong - to my eye it is really hard to judge. Equally I don't think it is possible for anyone looking at the tape to know that it is on the receivers either.  Justice's observation on that particular point is absolutely a legitimate one to make based on the evidence in my humble opinion.  

Do you remember if there was any difference on this front in his 2016 tape vs his 2017 tape? He seemed to trust Gentry quite a bit, but 2016 was also his first full season at that level of competition. It's an interesting conundrum for sure.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Do you remember if there was any difference on this front in his 2016 tape vs his 2017 tape? He seemed to trust Gentry quite a bit, but 2016 was also his first full season at that level of competition. It's an interesting conundrum for sure.

 

I don't off the top of my head BH - I am sitting at Washington Dulles airport at the moment waiting to board my flight back to the UK so don't have the benefit of my original hand written notes with me.  I'd have to consult those to see if I noted any year to year difference. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

It's called group-think. Allen was (is) a victim of a growing nerd movement in the football world. The nerds used him as the symbol of the old-school scouting mentality and the enemy of the moneyball method. "Big arm quarterback with bad stats is the potential #1 overall pick - let me show you why the NFL scouts are WRONG!" The nerds used Twitter to destroy his reputation and the general public swallowed it up because all they saw was negative negative negative.

 

Don't overestimate the knowledge and wisdom of the common fan.

 

Meh.  Now the excuses have excuses "symbol of the old-school scouting mentality" WTF?  Allen does not have good stats - not just the infamous "completion percentage", but deeper dives like "contextualized QBing".  To the extent that a certain level of college achievement represents a minimum threshold for possible NFL success, he gets a downcheck.  To the extent that he's an outlier - an enormously physically talented guy playing on an un-talented team in a weak conference - there's legit question to what extent that minimum threshold applies to his circumstances. 

 

Don't underestimate the knowledge and wisdom of the common fan either.  While all the pundits and Buffalo media were going all gushy about EJM, several folks here who watched him extensively were raising the alarm, alarm that proved justified.  I could say similar about my take on Blaine Gabbert.  There is probably some group- think in the evaluation of every player in the draft, but there are also people who watch a lot of film and form their own opinions.  Their opinions are worth taking into account even if you don't agree.

 

 

[BuffaloHokie13]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

I don't off the top of my head BH - I am sitting at Washington Dulles airport at the moment waiting to board my flight back to the UK so don't have the benefit of my original hand written notes with me.  I'd have to consult those to see if I noted any year to year difference. 

You should've told me you were here. I'd have bought you a pint! lol. Sorry about the crummy weather.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said:

You should've told me you were here. I'd have bought you a pint! lol. Sorry about the crummy weather.

 

I didn't realise you were in DC! Yea it has rained the whole three days. I had a day full of meetings 8am-8pm yesterday but had a bit of time late morning today to do some sight seeing.... I managed to get to the White House and take some photos of it and by that point I was pretty wet so made my way back to my hotel and sat in the bar instead!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I'm trying really hard to stay away from re-commenting on Josh Allen's game because he is here now, I support him and the proof of the pudding ultimately will be in the eating.  However, I am going to stick up for Justice a little here.... because the anticipatory thrower thing is to my mind a legitimate concern.  Here is what I said in my pre-draft QB evaluations thread: "Doesn’t demonstrate much ability to throw with anticipation. Hard to judge whether it is a timing issue or a trust issue with his receivers." (full post at: https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/203804-gunners-2018-draft-qb-evaluations/)

 

I still feel the same. There are not many anticipatory throws there on the film. How much it concerns you is a question of perception.  I certainly don't say that those who put that more on the receivers than on Allen are wrong - to my eye it is really hard to judge. Equally I don't think it is possible for anyone looking at the tape to know that it is on the receivers either.  Justice's observation on that particular point is absolutely a legitimate one to make based on the evidence in my humble opinion. 

 

Right.  So here is where the pro scouts legitimately do have a leg up on "Biff from Tonawanda", since at a minimum they have a chance to sit down with Allen on a pre-draft visit and take a deep dive into his film, what the play call was, what the routes were, etc. For all I know, they may be able to get some of that info under confidentiality from the college staff.  They can also work him out and ask him to throw specific routes, to assess what his base ability to make those kind of throws may be.

 

Now it may be that after doing that deeper dive, the Bills decided that anticipation was less of a problem for Allen than believed from just watching the film and that would be legit.   I hope that's the case.  But I agree with Justice and Gunner (also several former pro QB have made this comment) that from the film we have, it's not something he's demonstrated.

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, JaxBills said:

6'2" 130lb when he graduated HS.

6'5" 240lb when drafted.

 

I wish I had that late growth spurt.

LOL.  Me, too.

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Right.  So here is where the pro scouts legitimately do have a leg up on "Biff from Tonawanda", since at a minimum they have a chance to sit down with Allen on a pre-draft visit and take a deep dive into his film, what the play call was, what the routes were, etc. For all I know, they may be able to get some of that info under confidentiality from the college staff.  They can also work him out and ask him to throw specific routes, to assess what his base ability to make those kind of throws may be.

 

Now it may be that after doing that deeper dive, the Bills decided that anticipation was less of a problem for Allen than believed from just watching the film and that would be legit.   I hope that's the case.  But I agree with Justice and Gunner (also several former pro QB have made this comment) that from the film we have, it's not something he's demonstrated.

 

Completely agree with everything - other than I would add the word "consistently" at the very end.  There is a very occasional flash of it.  It's not demonstrated with any consistency or regularity on the tape.  But you are 100% right that the Bills are better positioned to assess the reasons for that than I.  

[Wayne Arnold]

23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Meh.  Now the excuses have excuses "symbol of the old-school scouting mentality" WTF?  Allen does not have good stats - not just the infamous "completion percentage", but deeper dives like "contextualized QBing".  To the extent that a certain level of college achievement represents a minimum threshold for possible NFL success, he gets a downcheck.  To the extent that he's an outlier - an enormously physically talented guy playing on an un-talented team in a weak conference - there's legit question to what extent that minimum threshold applies to his circumstances. 

 

Don't underestimate the knowledge and wisdom of the common fan either.  While all the pundits and Buffalo media were going all gushy about EJM, several folks here who watched him extensively were raising the alarm, alarm that proved justified.  I could say similar about my take on Blaine Gabbert.  There is probably some group- think in the evaluation of every player in the draft, but there are also people who watch a lot of film and form their own opinions.  Their opinions are worth taking into account even if you don't agree.

 

Couldn't read, sorry. You lost me at "excuses." Full indication of someone who willfully ignores context.

[Justice]

Trust me guys. I’ve come a long way since we drafted Allen. That’s why I chose to chime in on this particular thread. That’s what it’s all about. We’re Bills fans. He’s a Bill. We will support him and back him no matter what we thought of him before the draft. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Couldn't read, sorry. You lost me at "excuses." Full indication of someone who willfully ignores context.

 

Dude, when ya got a post that leads off with "It's called group think" and follows that up with " Allen was (is) a victim of a growing nerd movement", you do have a brass nerve claiming that other people willfully ignore context.

 

Now I need to go fix my irony meter, it sproinged.

 

 

[Tatonka68]

On 5/16/2018 at 11:48 AM, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Not the point and we both know if we drafted Jackson, you would have lead the Hate Parade.  

That is not true at all. He would make a great WR. ?

[Wayne Arnold]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Dude, when ya got a post that leads off with "It's called group think" and follows that up with " Allen was (is) a victim of a growing nerd movement", you do have a brass nerve claiming that other people willfully ignore context.

 

Now I need to go fix my irony meter, it sproinged.

 

Keep in mind, those statements were made in response to a poster who compared those who think Allen is good and worthy of a top pick to naive, crazy people getting pissed on. #context

 

Nevertheless, that doesn't make those statements any less true. There absolutely was an anti-Allen campaign and people who don't spend a lot of time studying players and/or don't know what they're looking at even if they do are more likely to join the growing crowd. That does not mean informed opinions who don't like Allen's game and didn't think he should have been a Top 10 pick shouldn't be taken into account.

[Scorp83]

21 hours ago, BB@Shooter said:

 

How did the Bills pass on Mahomes and Watson for Allen? Allen wasn't even in the mix. And if you have not read everything I or a few others put out on Allen, then you will never understand or refuse to understand why his numbers are what they are. I get tired of repeating the same old thing to every Lucy Lou who comes on here late and repeats all the same old crap that has been put to bed. You obviously don't know anything about the team or offense he was in. Or about his OC, or you wouldn't babble about the same old stuff.

 

I think you are just one more guy who is negative about him who will be proven wrong. If you want to know the real story on him then follow closely on some of these threads. I and some others have laid out some pretty defining points. At least read them before closing your mind to the possibility that you could be wrong. I would have loved to see Allen playing for that Oklahoma team. They would have been the national champions if they had him. Mayfield disappared in the 2nd half of the Georgia game. But no one brings that up. How about Darnold in his last game? Rosen? Oh , that's right, he didn't play in his bowl game. What did Allen do in 1 quarter? 3 TD's in the 1st quarter. And then the OC did what he always does to Allen, takes the air out of the ball. Has him hand it off on 1st and 2nd down and depending on where the ball is at on 3rd down, either has Allen run it for short yardage. Or pass on 3rd and long. The offense was very predictable to say the least. And his line sucked and Allen was the best back on the team by far. You don't know the situation he was in, but you think you do. Good luck with that. Thank you for being kind in your post. It was a nice read even if it was wrong.

By you starting your post off with this...totally destroyed your point. If you don't understand that they passed on Watson & Mahomes for Allen...then you've been asleep at the wheel for the past year buddy

[BB@Shooter]

6 hours ago, Justice said:

Yes. I meant the coaches.

 

(Bolded)It’s funny you say that too. Timing patterns actually helps out weaker WRs. It helps them get open or at least open long enough to make the catch. The ball usually comes when the defender doesn’t expect it. Makes them harder to defend. This isn’t happening with Wyoming’s offense. He actually waits for them to get open. You know who else does that? Tyrod Taylor. 

Like I said, I have seen tons more Wyoming football than you have dreamed about. If the D is in our backfield as soon as Allen drops back, when is he supposed to time these receivers?  Another thing you don't get, you don't the simplicity of our routes. You have taken a very small sample to talk points to me who has actually seen Allen play in person 20 times.

 

You are trying to tell me what Wyoming does with their receivers after watching a few clips? Wyoming receivers hardly ever get open, so you don't not what you are jabbering about. If you had a clue about how jr. high our offense looked you would might begin to understand. Why do you think you know more about Wyoming and Allen than I do? You seem like a nice guy but you are out of your depth. He led his receivers in the Senior Bowl because they got open. I know you don't want to be wrong, but you are. Don't give up your day job bud.

10 minutes ago, Scorp83 said:

By you starting your post off with this...totally destroyed your point. If you don't understand that they passed on Watson & Mahomes for Allen...then you've been asleep at the wheel for the past year buddy

 

They may have passed on them for a qb, but they weren't assured it would be Allen. That is the point.

[Justice]

8 minutes ago, BB@Shooter said:

Like I said, I have seen tons more Wyoming football than you have dreamed about. If the D is in our backfield as soon as Allen drops back, when is he supposed to time these receivers?  Another thing you don't get, you don't the simplicity of our routes. You have taken a very small sample to talk points to me who has actually seen Allen play in person 20 times.

 

You are trying to tell me what Wyoming does with their receivers after watching a few clips? Wyoming receivers hardly ever get open, so you don't not what you are jabbering about. If you had a clue about how jr. high our offense looked you would might begin to understand. Why do you think you know more about Wyoming and Allen than I do? You seem like a nice guy but you are out of your depth. He led his receivers in the Senior Bowl because they got open. I know you don't want to be wrong, but you are. Don't give up your day job bud.

 

They may have passed on them for a qb, but they weren't assured it would be Allen. That is the point.

Too funny. I know this game and I haven’t pretended to know Wyoming’s offense better than you. Just because you watch them play a lot doesn’t mean you know anything at all about the game. Brady has worked with just about anything at WR over the years and has excelled. Why do you think that is? His WRs go elsewhere and don’t match the production they had in NE. Why? Because it’s a timing based offense. That offense doesn’t require world beaters at WR. That type of offense helps everyone look better. The QB and the WRs. And if the oline is as bad as you say it is then they should’ve went to a timing based offense, but they didn’t. Why is that? You keep talking about Allen’s targets, well what about his competition?! So stop it. Don’t pretend to assume you know me or my level of knowledge on the game. I eat, sleep and breath football. I got what’s app chats blowing up on phone 24/7 365! 

[Scorp83]

28 minutes ago, BB@Shooter said:

Like I said, I have seen tons more Wyoming football than you have dreamed about. If the D is in our backfield as soon as Allen drops back, when is he supposed to time these receivers?  Another thing you don't get, you don't the simplicity of our routes. You have taken a very small sample to talk points to me who has actually seen Allen play in person 20 times.

 

You are trying to tell me what Wyoming does with their receivers after watching a few clips? Wyoming receivers hardly ever get open, so you don't not what you are jabbering about. If you had a clue about how jr. high our offense looked you would might begin to understand. Why do you think you know more about Wyoming and Allen than I do? You seem like a nice guy but you are out of your depth. He led his receivers in the Senior Bowl because they got open. I know you don't want to be wrong, but you are. Don't give up your day job bud.

 

They may have passed on them for a qb, but they weren't assured it would be Allen. That is the point.

Yea...they way it looks, as if it was Allen all along. & that's the previous poster point...if they loved Allen, then why pass on Mahomes? He was pretty much the same player coming out with a better resumé. I just hope im wrong....cause if Allen is who everyone think he is... this front office is honey bun done

[BB@Shooter]

3 minutes ago, Justice said:

Too funny. I know this game and I haven’t pretended to know Wyoming’s offense better than you. Just because you watch them play a lot doesn’t mean you know anything at all about the game. Brady has worked with just about anything at WR over the years and has excelled. Why do you think that is? His WRs go elsewhere and don’t match the production they had in NE. Why? Because it’s a timing based offense. That offense doesn’t require world beaters at WR. That type of offense helps everyone look better. The QB and the WRs. And if the oline is as bad as you say it is then they should’ve went to a timing based offense, but they didn’t. Why is that? You keep talking about Allen’s targets, well what about his competition?! So stop it. Don’t pretend to assume you know me or my level of knowledge on the game. I eat, sleep and breath football. I got what’s app chats blowing up on phone 24/7 365! 

And yet you have never seen them play in person once. But assume you know more than me. Laughable. You can crap football for all I care, but I will go with seeing him live 20 times over you watching him on your phone.  You make me laugh comparing New Englands offense and Brady to Wyomings situation. What about Allens competition? I watched them also. Understand one thing, Wyoming and their OC did not build this offense around Allen. They plugged Allen into their offense. You have to understand Bohl shortens the game by running the ball, working field position and relying on the defense. So our offense was very conservative. Allens receivers in 2017 didn't finish routes, came up short on 1st down markers, stood around and watched while he scrambled for his life, ran basic routes, and dropped a lot of balls that were catchable. I don't care what the stats say about his dropped balls, they dropped more than the stats show because I saw it in person. I don't care what you saw or thought you saw on your phone. I know Allens stron points and weak points. And he is cleaning his game up a lot. Time will bear that out. So go join another state site, so you know the game even better.

[Scorp83]

20 minutes ago, Justice said:

Too funny. I know this game and I haven’t pretended to know Wyoming’s offense better than you. Just because you watch them play a lot doesn’t mean you know anything at all about the game. Brady has worked with just about anything at WR over the years and has excelled. Why do you think that is? His WRs go elsewhere and don’t match the production they had in NE. Why? Because it’s a timing based offense. That offense doesn’t require world beaters at WR. That type of offense helps everyone look better. The QB and the WRs. And if the oline is as bad as you say it is then they should’ve went to a timing based offense, but they didn’t. Why is that? You keep talking about Allen’s targets, well what about his competition?! So stop it. Don’t pretend to assume you know me or my level of knowledge on the game. I eat, sleep and breath football. I got what’s app chats blowing up on phone 24/7 365! 

I totally agree ... what I've notice on this board is that you have to be part of the league for anyone to believe in you. I have creditable knowledge of this game, I've been apart of this game for almost 30 years & I'm not talking watching it with a beer in my hand. 

 

But what most people don't know, is if McBeane is wrong...they will become a poster just like everyone else. Unless they get back into coaching again on someone staff. These dudes are not right...just because they have this position doesn't mean they know what their doing. Especially McDermott...the jury is still out on him & his time management decisions

[Justice]

38 minutes ago, BB@Shooter said:

And yet you have never seen them play in person once. But assume you know more than me. Laughable. You can crap football for all I care, but I will go with seeing him live 20 times over you watching him on your phone.  You make me laugh comparing New Englands offense and Brady to Wyomings situation. What about Allens competition? I watched them also. Understand one thing, Wyoming and their OC did not build this offense around Allen. They plugged Allen into their offense. You have to understand Bohl shortens the game by running the ball, working field position and relying on the defense. So our offense was very conservative. Allens receivers in 2017 didn't finish routes, came up short on 1st down markers, stood around and watched while he scrambled for his life, ran basic routes, and dropped a lot of balls that were catchable. I don't care what the stats say about his dropped balls, they dropped more than the stats show because I saw it in person. I don't care what you saw or thought you saw on your phone. I know Allens stron points and weak points. And he is cleaning his game up a lot. Time will bear that out. So go join another state site, so you know the game even better.

Like I said several times, I hope he’s great. I believe it was you that accused me of wanting to be right. Couldn’t be further from the truth. You obviously see things the way you want to see them. 

 

I didn’t compare situations either. I compared schemes. Big difference. You missed the point. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Justice

[Wayne Arnold]

7 hours ago, Justice said:

 

I didn’t compare situations either. I compared schemes. Big difference. You missed the point. 

 

Comparing the Patriots' scheme to Wyoming's scheme is just as bad.

[BB@Shooter]

10 hours ago, Justice said:

Like I said several times, I hope he’s great. I believe it was you that accused me of wanting to be right. Couldn’t be further from the truth. You obviously see things the way you want to see them. 

 

I didn’t compare situations either. I compared schemes. Big difference. You missed the point. 

I only accused you of being a know it all who won't listen to someone who has a lot more info on the subject than you do. Now you can't even get who said what to you right. I never accused you whatever you are claiming above. 

 

You are one of those types of guys that think they are never wrong. On this subject you are. You don't see me go off talking about anything else about the Bills because I am soaking it in, trying to learn about them before I give any input. Allen and Wyoming is what I know. You claim to know but aren't even close because you aren't willing to take the info myself and others have given you to work with. You would rather run with the mob mentality and read the negatives. There is plenty of negative out there on all the qb's if you want to look. I don't look for it because they aren't the qb of my newly adopted team. Spin it any way you want, I know more about Allen and his situation than you do by a long shot. Pick a different area and I am sure you can blow me out of the water. But not this. I am around the program , I know the players and coaches.  Palmer and others are not going to stick their necks out for Allen on a whim. In all actuality, Palmer is very respected in the league. Along with Chris Simms and others touting Allen.

 

If you can't understand all the things Allen had to overcome to get this high in the football world, then I guess you never will. He had poor stats, small school, no offers, etc,etc, and still could have been a #1pick. He wasn't groomed to be a qb his whole life like the other guys he is being compared to. He made huge leaps in the small time that Palmer and the Senior Bowl staff had him. He is a sponge about receiving instruction, and picks it up quickly. Football people don't stick their necks out for guys they don't have it. And if you look at how many qb's who had great stats and came from big schools that didn't make it, you would realize no one really knows if any qb touted is going to make it. Everyone in football had already written Goff off, a few changes and he is considered one of the best qb's playing. So I really get tired of the real analysts, little alone the self proclaimed ones that think they know who is going to pan out. All I can say is don't let his quiet demeanor fool you, he is a competitor. Watch the UNLV game where he throws a pick. He is so mad at himself he runs the guy down and puts a violent tackle on him at the 2 yard line preventing the score. 

 

I already know you are the type who will post as soon as you see this . You have to get the last word in regardless, so have at it. I tried to educate you and save you from yourself, but it won't happen. For some unknown reason you are the guy who has to show the world you know more than the guy you are debating. Any other subject and I would let you run with it. But not this one.

[GimmeSomeProcess]

All I know franchise changing qbs come in all different forms and different back grounds. Analytic guys have hammered Allen all off season but the old scouts have not. Of the last 30 years the qbs who have said to have once in a lifetime arms I would say would of been, Allen, Jeff George, Jarmacus Russell, Brett Farve, Drew Bledsoe, Matt Stafford, Aaron Rodgers, Andrew Luck, Ryan Mallet, Jay Cuttler and Carson Wentz (top 10). Most certainly some have busted to an epic level but for those ones that didn't there was a common trend. The ones who didn't showed tremendous work ethic and coach ability. Just like any professional talent trumps all and it's how you harness it that separates it. Sure half those guys busted but they were nightmares to coach or were extremely lazy. Even someone like cutler wasn't a bust and if his teammates liked him and was coachable would of been that much more successful 

[GimmeSomeProcess]

Sorry for the rant that was off topic but as I stated earlier I was a Rosen fan but understand why they took Allen. Allen was 4th on my list but wanted one of the top 4 so I was happy to snag him. The one thing I didn't realize before the draft was the great work with and coach ability. What kept Allen in the conversation for me was re fact he had identicle tds stats to wentz in fewer games. Sure he had more tunrovers and a lower completion percentage but if he didn't, he would of been number 1

[BillsBytheBay]

I think it's odd to say the kid doesn't have any "swagger" what ever the funk that means.

 

He has almost no arrogance.  He hasn't been given anything.  And he over came.

 

You don't go from ZERO offers for college to a top 10 pick by not having "it".  Most of why I love this kid is because he has worked though every wall in front of him.  Because HE wanted it.

 

I'm not comparing the guy to Brady, but his will to overcome is reminiscent.

Edited May 18, 2018 by JaxBills

[BB@Shooter]

11 minutes ago, JaxBills said:

I think it's odd to say the kid doesn't have any "swagger" what ever the funk that means.

 

He has almost no arrogance.  He hasn't been given anything.  And he over came.

 

You don't go from ZERO offers for college to a top 10 pick by not having "it".  Most of why I love this kid is because he has worked though every wall in front of him.  Because HE wanted it.

 

I'm not comparing the guy to Brady, but his will to overcome is reminiscent.

Finally, some people are starting to understand about Allen and who he is. He didn't ask for the scrutiny and wasn't out there begging for attention. The kidoctor has been fun to watch. He has grown in the two years I have watched him. His film shows he regressed, but you have to understand the film and what the circumstances were . It was like he was playing with one hand tied behind his back because of the OC. It seems like the OC kept putting him in 3rd and long situations expecting Allen to bail him out. All the while the opposing team would pin back their ears and bring the heat. If the play calling would have mixed it up and kept the defense back on their feet, Allen could have put up better numbers. But when a qb is used mainly to hand the ball off on the first two downs, it makes it tough to move the ball.

[Justice]

6 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Comparing the Patriots' scheme to Wyoming's scheme is just as bad.

BB says Allen had a horrible oline and terrible WRs. He also said the coaching staff didn’t feature Josh in their offense. My contention is he should’ve ran a timing based offense (like NE) because that covers deficiencies in both of those aforementioned areas, but they most likely didn’t do it because JA isn’t capable of running that type of offense. BB claims he can throw with timing and anticipation. I don’t see it. When he gets to the top of his dropback he doesn’t release the ball. He waits, scans the field and frequently takes off running. 

[Wayne Arnold]

2 minutes ago, Justice said:

BB says Allen had a horrible oline and terrible WRs. He also said the coaching staff didn’t feature Josh in their offense. My contention is he should’ve ran a timing based offense (like NE) because that covers deficiencies in both of those aforementioned areas, but they most likely didn’t do it because JA isn’t capable of running that type of offense. BB claims he can throw with timing and anticipation. I don’t see it. When he gets to the top of his dropback he doesn’t release the ball. He waits, scans the field and frequently takes off running. 

 

lol why is that your assumption?

 

You expect an offensive coordinator who had spent his entire career at the FCS level before coming to Wyoming a few years back and has coached nothing but an outdated offense to completely switch his philosophy and implement a "timing based offense like NE"?

 

This statement alone demonstrates your lack of understanding here.

[Justice]

25 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

lol why is that your assumption?

 

You expect an offensive coordinator who had spent his entire career at the FCS level before coming to Wyoming a few years back and has coached nothing but an outdated offense to completely switch his philosophy and implement a "timing based offense like NE"?

 

This statement alone demonstrates your lack of understanding here.

Wow. I don’t understand the game. Gotchya. Lmao. There are elements of a timing passing game in every offense. If the first read is open you’re supposed to fire that ball as soon as you finish your drop. JA doesn’t do that often. He rarely does it. If that’s not enough for you then his admitted struggles with accuracy should prove to you he was incapable of running that type of passing game. He blamed his footwork, right? He said he cleaned it up. Let’s hope it’s true. 

 

I expect coaching staffs to know enough about to play to his players strengths. That’s my argument. That’s been my argument the whole time. He doesn’t have to change systems. He can call more pass plays that require timing. They’re in every offense. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Justice

[GimmeSomeProcess]

14 minutes ago, Justice said:

 

I expect coaching staffs to know enough about to play to his players strengths. That’s my argument. That’s been my argument the whole time. He doesn’t have to change systems. He can call more pass plays that require timing. They’re in every offense. 

Most people expect coaches to play to a player strengths but a lot of coaches are extremely hard headed. Case in point Rick Dennison running an offense that played in to Tyrods weakness. Another is Nick Foles, looked good under chip running the spread and RPOs and then goes to the Rams looks awful and then back to philly and wins a super bowl. 

 

I haven't watched Wyoming football expect on YouTube but I find it totally plausible that his oc wasn't smart enough or capable enough to design an offense around JA stengths. Instead, did what a lot of OCs on his level due and just run an offense on he's always done it and not adapt 

[Justice]

3 hours ago, BB@Shooter said:

I only accused you of being a know it all who won't listen to someone who has a lot more info on the subject than you do. Now you can't even get who said what to you right. I never accused you whatever you are claiming above. 

 

You are one of those types of guys that think they are never wrong. On this subject you are. You don't see me go off talking about anything else about the Bills because I am soaking it in, trying to learn about them before I give any input. Allen and Wyoming is what I know. You claim to know but aren't even close because you aren't willing to take the info myself and others have given you to work with. You would rather run with the mob mentality and read the negatives. There is plenty of negative out there on all the qb's if you want to look. I don't look for it because they aren't the qb of my newly adopted team. Spin it any way you want, I know more about Allen and his situation than you do by a long shot. Pick a different area and I am sure you can blow me out of the water. But not this. I am around the program , I know the players and coaches.  Palmer and others are not going to stick their necks out for Allen on a whim. In all actuality, Palmer is very respected in the league. Along with Chris Simms and others touting Allen.

 

If you can't understand all the things Allen had to overcome to get this high in the football world, then I guess you never will. He had poor stats, small school, no offers, etc,etc, and still could have been a #1pick. He wasn't groomed to be a qb his whole life like the other guys he is being compared to. He made huge leaps in the small time that Palmer and the Senior Bowl staff had him. He is a sponge about receiving instruction, and picks it up quickly. Football people don't stick their necks out for guys they don't have it. And if you look at how many qb's who had great stats and came from big schools that didn't make it, you would realize no one really knows if any qb touted is going to make it. Everyone in football had already written Goff off, a few changes and he is considered one of the best qb's playing. So I really get tired of the real analysts, little alone the self proclaimed ones that think they know who is going to pan out. All I can say is don't let his quiet demeanor fool you, he is a competitor. Watch the UNLV game where he throws a pick. He is so mad at himself he runs the guy down and puts a violent tackle on him at the 2 yard line preventing the score. 

 

I already know you are the type who will post as soon as you see this . You have to get the last word in regardless, so have at it. I tried to educate you and save you from yourself, but it won't happen. For some unknown reason you are the guy who has to show the world you know more than the guy you are debating. Any other subject and I would let you run with it. But not this one.

Sorry. My bad. Didn’t know this was a discussion board. I didn’t realize it’s about having the last word. Lol. 

 

I wasn’t sure it was you that accused me of wanting to be right more than wanting Allen to pan out. That’s why I said “I believe...”’instead of outright saying it. Maybe it’s because of your profile pick. It’s similar to others. 

 

“Football people don’t stick their necks out for guys that don’t have it”. Really???? I mean really????? Lol. Guess you don’t watch the draft every year. Lol. 

 

I can guarantee you we will not be running a WCO or any variation of it with Allen at QB. That doesn’t mean he can’t be good or even great. I’m not closing the door on the kid. I see his potential. I see the size. I see the cannon. I see the athletic ability. I want this kid to be special.