How Does The Reaction to Josh Allen Compare To JP Losman and EJ Manuel?

[Kemp2Warlick]

I had high hopes for Losman...didn't like EJ.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

That goes for every draft pick ever.

exactamundo   

[Ramza86]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But given his flaws and lack of production, Josh Allen could have been a 3rd round pick too. I compare him to Blaine Gabbert or Christian Hackenberg. 

I’m really trying!  I want him to be good just like I want every Bills player to be.  I just feel like I’ve seen this movie before and know the ending.

 

and I think they done good things on defense, but I’m not at all sold on their offensive player evaluations.

 

Hmmmm....I think you have to toss the production in the backseat. Pretty poor team he played for. 

 

I hear some knocks about anticipation from media...but then they dont show him missing a guy running a seam wide open with his hand out. 

 

Not to mention he made some very nice throws in the Senior Bowl with better competition. I think he played with sorry players and that made him look bad. 

 

You can tell Josh is trying to make the right throw.

He doesnt seem to abandon the pocket early many times. Its usually the line's failure that makes him run. 

 

I think if youre gonna take anyone as a project QB with high hopes of success its this guy. 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

16 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

.......hell 'Shady, he could be the next Daryle "Mad Bomber" Lamonica, right??.............

Could be.!! 

 

as for the snark 

 

He man,  I gots a reputation to protect       

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by ShadyBillsFan

[mjt328]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I think that it is much more likely Allen succeeds than either of those 2. Multiple NFL teams had Allen at the top of their board in a great QB draft. Losman was thought of as a reach in 2004 (although not a massive one). He would have been like taking Rudolph at 22. He was down a tier (at least) from the top. EJ was considered a total project in arguably the worst QB draft ever. If he were in this class he may very well have been a day 3 pick. All 3 had obvious deficiencies but Allen is certainly would have been considered the best of the 3 at this juncture.

 

Very good point.

 

It's also important to recognize the higher level of scrutiny that players face today.

 

Back when Losman was picked, the NFL Draft started on ESPN early Saturday morning.  Unless you were a college football fanatic, your only source for "feedback" on a prospect was Mel Kiper.  You watched his "Big Board" and then waited to see his reaction on your team's pick.

 

Today, the NFL Draft is nearly 3 months of build-up, leading to a primetime event on multiple channels.  There are thousands of "experts" with thoughts on prospects.  Anyone with an internet connection can pour over hours of game film and YouTube videos, and gain their own opinion on a player.

 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Ramza86 said:

 

Hmmmm....I think you have to toss the production in the backseat. Pretty poor team he played for. 

 

I hear some knocks about anticipation from media...but then they dont show him missing a guy running a seam wide open with his hand out. 

 

Not to mention he made some very nice throws in the Senior Bowl with better competition. I think he played with sorry players and that made him look bad. 

 

You can tell Josh is trying to make the right throw.

He doesnt seem to abandon the pocket early many times. Its usually the line's failure that makes him run. 

 

I think if youre gonna take anyone as a project QB with high hopes of success its this guy. 

 

JMO, but teams like the Bills and Browns are the last ones who should take project qbs.  I would feel much better about this if we had Andy Reid or a known qb coach here.  We’re on our 2nd OC in 2 years.

[Bills757]

Being a starting QB in the NFL is hard......like real hard.  With athletes getting faster and the complexities of the defenses, becoming a starter AND performing at a consistently high level is super difficult.  Some people think they know how to evaluate but it's become almost a crap shoot these days.  That's why I laughed at so many posters who said we "just needed to draft a franchise QB next year....blah blah blah".....as if you can pick one up at Walmart on your way home from work.  

 

If Allen's progression is normal, he's gonna suck more than he has success in the beginning.  It's gonna take experience and failure to make him better.  This, of course, is going to be unacceptable for many on this board who will take the first opportunity to bash this kid as a bust, a failure......the wrong guy for Buffalo.  They'll rail on the negatives and won't give him a chance.  But hey, that's their right I guess.  

 

Personally, I think Beane had a pretty solid draft and made some good moves.  Every one of the draft picks has his flaws but from what I can see, they definitely have talent.  It's now in the coaches' hands to get these guys up to speed.  

[Ramza86]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

JMO, but teams like the Bills and Browns are the last ones who should take project qbs.  I would feel much better about this if we had Andy Reid or a known qb coach here.  We’re on our 2nd OC in 2 years.

 

That I can understand. Having the right situation, coach developing the kid is a concern. 

[PromoTheRobot]

The reaction to Allen is the most negative I've ever seen for a Bills draft pick. EJ Manuel was bad to but this is worse.

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

JMO, but teams like the Bills and Browns are the last ones who should take project qbs.  I would feel much better about this if we had Andy Reid or a known qb coach here.  We’re on our 2nd OC in 2 years.

 

All rookie QBs are projects. No one walks into the NFL ready to play. When it looks like they did, it's coaching.

[Sky Diver]

13 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But given his flaws and lack of production, Josh Allen could have been a 3rd round pick too. I compare him to Blaine Gabbert or Christian Hackenberg. 

I’m really trying!  I want him to be good just like I want every Bills player to be.  I just feel like I’ve seen this movie before and know the ending.

 

and I think they done good things on defense, but I’m not at all sold on their offensive player evaluations.

 

Dion Dawkins appears to have been a good pick. I suspect Jones will pick up his game this year.

[C.Biscuit97]

6 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

The reaction to Allen is the most negative I've ever seen for a Bills draft pick. EJ Manuel was bad to but this is worse.

 

All rookie QBs are projects. No one walks into the NFL ready to play. When it looks like they did, it's coaching.

I guess the difference is they traded down and picked EJ.  But I do think that EJ and JP’s flaws definitely make it harder to fall completely in love with Allen.

6 minutes ago, Sky Diver said:

 

Dion Dawkins appears to have been a good pick. I suspect Jones will pick up his game this year.

Dawkins is a good pick.  I’m hoping for the best in Zay but I really want JuJu so I was not a huge fan of the pick.

[HomeskillitMoorman]

I didn't know anything about Losman at the time but I was excited because I hated Bledsoe and was excited we were moving on from him. 

 

I was angry about the EJ pick and never once believed he was going to be a successful QB.

 

I'm mixed on Allen. It'll pretty much echo what many people here say, but yeah he makes some exciting plays that many other QB's cant...but what scares me is the easy throws that he's so inconsistent with. I don't care about completion percentage in general, but so much of this game is about efficiency and moving the chains. He won't be able to miss those throws in the NFL and survive. And that's not always "correctable". A lot of those plays we're talking about are all about feel and rhythm and instincts. 

 

That being said, I didn't have a clear cut favorite QB of the Big 5 in this draft. The one that I'll be watching in comparison is the one that was available at our pick last year, Mahomes. I hope we made the right call. 

[corta765]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

For Manuel, most were very happy the Bills had finally moved on from Fitzpatrick and DRAFTED A QB.  There were cautious notes of people saying he had stunk up the joint in college, was only making half field reads and had "slow eyes", which were shushed up quickly.  Most people agreed that he was raw and would have to sit a while and learn (if he could learn) and when Kolb had his epic encounter with the bathmat and he was thrown in then injured, we worried.  There are some similarities, but I think they're really pretty super ficial.

 

Haha my wife and I were at that training camp and all the sudden he's down and the next thing you hear is EJ is starting the whole practice. I actually remember EJ did pretty well that day and a few TD throws he had on 7 v 7 the team went nuts rushing him to celebrate. He was always a good dude I always wished he succeeded but it just wasn't made to be. That said his first season I actually bought it a bit he could be the dude especially until his knee got injured against CLE. After that the coaching staff seemed nervous to move him around and he seemed hesitant himself to move. It just never was in the cards.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

30 minutes ago, corta765 said:

Haha my wife and I were at that training camp and all the sudden he's down and the next thing you hear is EJ is starting the whole practice. I actually remember EJ did pretty well that day and a few TD throws he had on 7 v 7 the team went nuts rushing him to celebrate. He was always a good dude I always wished he succeeded but it just wasn't made to be. That said his first season I actually bought it a bit he could be the dude especially until his knee got injured against CLE. After that the coaching staff seemed nervous to move him around and he seemed hesitant himself to move. It just never was in the cards.

 

 I know I'm a minority here, but I felt EJ had shown flashes, and that if he were properly developed with a year on the bench, a QB coach who had time to devote to him his rook season (not a QB coach/OC combo) and a proficient vet QB who had made the transition from a spread offense to an NFL offense successfully and could understand where EJ was coming from, he might have had a chance.  I agree that he was at a place where he was "read-(maybe read)-RUN!" and when he took away the "RUN!" part of his game plan he floundered.  Then, it takes an enormous toll on a player's confidence to get benched and treated as EJM did, and it's very hard for them to play well when they first get off of it.

 

I also think he got the "yips" at some point - he was "zip code accurate" at times in college but never "hit the hospitality tent WTF?".   After that he was sunk.

 

People get such a double standard - EJ never threw for 300 yards so you could tell after 4 games that he sucks but AJ McCarron (who has also not thrown for 300 yds in an NFL game)  OK, OK, I know it may not be the same folks but you see my point.
 

54 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

The reaction to Allen is the most negative I've ever seen for a Bills draft pick. EJ Manuel was bad to but this is worse.

 

Do you have a theory as to why?

 

54 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

All rookie QBs are projects. No one walks into the NFL ready to play. When it looks like they did, it's coaching.

 

Luck looked like he was ready to play, and he pretty much backed that up on the field.  I don't think they dumbed anything down for him on the offense.

Rosen isn't Luck, but he looks like he's ready to play if he has an OL and good WR.  We'll see what McCoy does with the offense. 

Dalton was actually pretty pro-ready as I recall.

 

Prescott, Wentz, Watson, and earlier, Wilson all had a strong component of scheme/coaching to their early success.

[Shaw66]

I don't have a great recollection, but I think the reaction to Allen has been more vocally negative than to either of the other two.

 

There were people who didn't like the Manuel pick, for sure, but Manuel was generally rated as the first or second best prospect in the draft, with Geno Smith.   Then the Bills traded back in the draft before taking him.   So the reaction of many people was, "good, you got the best QB in the draft and you got an extra pick out of the deal."  

 

JP, many people didn't like him, but he WAS the fifth rated QB in the draft and it was widely expected that he'd go in the bottom of the first or top of the second.   I appreciated Donohoe's aggressiveness in going and getting him.   

 

People like this one less because in terms of draft capital, Allen was much more expensive.   And, I think, people have bought all of the loud and repeated complaints about his accuracy and decision making.   I don't remember the complaining about Manuel being that bad, but in part that was because the Bills didn't spend nearly as much in draft capital, and got change back.   

 

In other words, based on draft capital, the Bills risked more on him than on the others.   I think that magnifies his potential shortcomings.   

 

I'm expecting Allen to be the best QB of the lot five years from now.  I just have enormous confidence in McBeane.   I think they really know what they're doing, and I think they know exactly what they're going to do with Allen.  

[SouthNYfan]

38 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 I know I'm a minority here, but I felt EJ had shown flashes, and that if he were properly developed with a year on the bench, a QB coach who had time to devote to him his rook season (not a QB coach/OC combo) and a proficient vet QB who had made the transition from a spread offense to an NFL offense successfully and could understand where EJ was coming from, he might have had a chance.  I agree that he was at a place where he was "read-(maybe read)-RUN!" and when he took away the "RUN!" part of his game plan he floundered.  Then, it takes an enormous toll on a player's confidence to get benched and treated as EJM did, and it's very hard for them to play well when they first get off of it.

 

I also think he got the "yips" at some point - he was "zip code accurate" at times in college but never "hit the hospitality tent WTF?".   After that he was sunk.

 

People get such a double standard - EJ never threw for 300 yards so you could tell after 4 games that he sucks but AJ McCarron (who has also not thrown for 300 yds in an NFL game)  OK, OK, I know it may not be the same folks but you see my point.
 

 

Do you have a theory as to why?

 

 

Luck looked like he was ready to play, and he pretty much backed that up on the field.  I don't think they dumbed anything down for him on the offense.

Rosen isn't Luck, but he looks like he's ready to play if he has an OL and good WR.  We'll see what McCoy does with the offense. 

Dalton was actually pretty pro-ready as I recall.

 

Prescott, Wentz, Watson, and earlier, Wilson all had a strong component of scheme/coaching to their early success.

 

Even go back as far as Brady.

He wasn't asked to do much early on, and wasn't unleashed for a few years.

Most QBs need their hands held and to be brought along slowly because the nuances and difficulty of the NFL QB position is so much different than say, a RB or linebacker.

[Sky Diver]

58 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 I know I'm a minority here, but I felt EJ had shown flashes, and that if he were properly developed with a year on the bench, a QB coach who had time to devote to him his rook season (not a QB coach/OC combo) and a proficient vet QB who had made the transition from a spread offense to an NFL offense successfully and could understand where EJ was coming from, he might have had a chance.  I agree that he was at a place where he was "read-(maybe read)-RUN!" and when he took away the "RUN!" part of his game plan he floundered.  Then, it takes an enormous toll on a player's confidence to get benched and treated as EJM did, and it's very hard for them to play well when they first get off of it.

 

I also think he got the "yips" at some point - he was "zip code accurate" at times in college but never "hit the hospitality tent WTF?".   After that he was sunk.

 

People get such a double standard - EJ never threw for 300 yards so you could tell after 4 games that he sucks but AJ McCarron (who has also not thrown for 300 yds in an NFL game)  OK, OK, I know it may not be the same folks but you see my point.
 

 

Do you have a theory as to why?

 

 

Luck looked like he was ready to play, and he pretty much backed that up on the field.  I don't think they dumbed anything down for him on the offense.

Rosen isn't Luck, but he looks like he's ready to play if he has an OL and good WR.  We'll see what McCoy does with the offense. 

Dalton was actually pretty pro-ready as I recall.

 

Prescott, Wentz, Watson, and earlier, Wilson all had a strong component of scheme/coaching to their early success.

 

McCarron threw for 280 yrds against the Steelers.

[Stanley Lombardi]

When EJ was drafted, I can remember turning (as we all did) to YouTube to get a sense of his abilities.  I was instantly dismayed.  I'll say it like that and leave it at that.

When Allen was drafted, I again turned to YouTube to see what Beane had brought us.  (As you might surmise, I am no college football/draft fanatic.)  The reaction I have to Allen is the polar opposite of the reaction I had to E.J.  This kid has the IT, the WOW, the ways and the means.  

Since then I continue to read (on this most enlightened forum) how he sucks.  I am not seeing, at all, what my more enlightened fellow posters are seeing.

Trusting my own two eyes, I am thankful we have a QB with such possibilities.

[Sky Diver]

3 minutes ago, Blue on Blue said:

When EJ was drafted, I can remember turning (as we all did) to YouTube to get a sense of his abilities.  I was instantly dismayed.  I'll say it like that and leave it at that.

When Allen was drafted, I again turned to YouTube to see what Beane had brought us.  (As you might surmise, I am no college football/draft fanatic.)  The reaction I have to Allen is the polar opposite of the reaction I had to E.J.  This kid has the IT, the WOW, the ways and the means.  

Since then I continue to read (on this most enlightened forum) how he sucks.  I am not seeing, at all, what my more enlightened fellow posters are seeing.

Trusting my own two eyes, I am thankful we have a QB with such possibilities.

 

Too many people just parrot what the pundits say.

I was just glad we didn’t draft Rosen, but now that I have studied Allen, I love the pick. His ceiling is off the charts. Edmunds too. 

[Lfod]

I think the reaction to Josh Allen is next level stuff. Allen is getting trashed more then Tyrod did after 3 years of starting. 

 

Not that I don't understand it. The odds are the haters will be right. I could say Baker Mayfield will bust and most likely be right because the Browns have been terrible. People say the odds against rookie QBs being good is high so it's easy to predict they will bust right? 

 

Although I think the initial hate wave is over and it's calmed down some I think. Only so many times you can hate on the guy before it gets annoying and people start to turn on you.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Lfod