20 Year Debate: Carucci in 1998 - Head vs. Arm

[Buffalo716]

4 hours ago, ddaryl said:

 

I really was just answering a question for another poster

?

[Lurker]

7 hours ago, BringMetheHeadofLeonLett said:

Dan Marino's arm was smarter than his head. There are just some things you can't find an algorithm for. 

 

 And in the end, what did Dan's arm win exactly?    A Gold Jacket but no rings....

[billsredneck1]

16 hours ago, Meh. said:

Manning got a 28 and Leaf got a 27. The "head" he's talking about has nothing to do with a test score. The "considerable discipline and maturity" - which one of the top 4-5 QBs this year is the standout in that regard?

i remember that draft year very well and actually was on the side of leaf. in the back of my mind was ...yeah..archie's son, he's got the name. mason rudolph probably almost mirrors manning's profile as far as abilities.

 

i think that's what he could potentially become....and he doesn't have to be a day one starter.

[SouthNYfan]

On 4/6/2018 at 1:16 PM, CuddyDark said:

Top choices are Allen and Rosen IMO.

 

I don't think either one.

Leaf imploded due to him being a complete headcase.

Allen, while similar in the "big arm, but unrefined" mold as a player, doesn't seem to be a freaking headcase.

Rosen I don't think is a headcase in the Leaf mold, I see him more of a "Jay Cutler" risk: concerns of durability and apathy.

 

 

[Punching Bag]

On 4/6/2018 at 10:42 AM, buffalobloodfloridahome said:

I would take head over arm all day long. Peyton really showed that in his last super bowl win. He had almost no velocity left and he was still dropping balls with accuracy and anticipation. I know their defense was legit and truly carried the team, but what have they done since he has been gone? His ability to play chess with the defense always made him dangerous. He should be a coach some day.

 

He also moved defenders with his voice and eyes.

4 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

 And in the end, what did Dan's arm win exactly?    A Gold Jacket but no rings....

 

Bruises for RBs.  His fakes were poor.

And do not forget the commercials!  They started the year he was injured but he was well enough to travel, play golf, etc which reports were circulated by press.

[atlbillsfan1975]

A very cool story for me. I got to chat w Dave Caldwell a few times. I asked him about that draft. Caldwell was a scout at the time and in the meetings leading up to the pick. According to Caldwell  It came down to the last second of Leaf vs Manning. 

[BobbyC81]

On 4/6/2018 at 11:39 AM, ddaryl said:

 

 

Josh Allen

 

• Josh Allen: 37
• Josh Rosen: 29
• Sam Darnold: 28
• Baker Mayfield: 25
• Lamar Jackson: 13

 

Darnold reminds me a lot of Brett Favre.  He’ll make awesome throws, including on rollouts, then he’ll try and thread the next one between 3 defenders and have it picked off.  I don’t know if that’s arrogance, dumbness or a combination of the two.

 

Rosen has the intelligence but does it translate to football smarts?

[Doc Brown]

 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

I believe this is the gold star of QB debates.  The mental part of playing the position in my opinion far outweighs the physical even though u do need to have adequate arm strength to make all the throws.  

 

The problem is most of the mental side can't be found during the lead up to the draft. Yes during meetings teams can see if the prospect can absorb plays and break them down on the white board.  But i believe the mental goes above and beyond that . 

 

Is the mental the "it" factor? 

 

I believe it is and this is where that internal clock comes into play having the natural timing, vision & recognition to diagnose everything during a single play.  Being able to read a defense pre and post snap and being able to adjust in a split second to find the open wrs.  It can not be overstated how important this is.  If u look threw out the history of the great QB's u will find they all have the "it" factor and not some amazing super arm . Montana, Brady & Peyton these guys didn't have cannons they had awareness.  At the end of the day u need to have both the mental and physical but the mental part far outweighs the physical in my opinion. 

[ColdFront_USAF]

On 4/7/2018 at 3:48 AM, Tyrod's friend said:

Is Allen's number meaningful?

No.

Above 16 isn't a realistic predictor of NFL ability in a QB. Failing to get to 16 is. Especially once you get above 20 the numbers become meaningless.  

 

Where did you get you're information on this? I've never heard of that. Not debating you, just genuinely curious.

[Tyrod's friend]

5 hours ago, ColdFront_USAF said:

 

Where did you get you're information on this? I've never heard of that. Not debating you, just genuinely curious.

Actually, from another poster! He mentioned that the data was available and shared conclusions on it.

When I checked the data it seemed he was correct.

Cheers.

http://wonderlictestsample.com/nfl-wonderlic-scores/
 

[NoSaint]

On 4/6/2018 at 10:04 AM, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

Allen has the Brains and the Arm, if he fixes his footwork and accuracy he will be the best QB from this draft. Lot of ?????? marks from all the QB's in this draft. The feeling I get from the top 4 QB's is 2 will be great and 2 will be solid,  I don't think any will be a Ryan Leaf type QB.

 

Leaf is a tough one to use as a comparison for any top pick. Maybe an outside chance at baker. johnny football was the last before and I can’t think of before that. Rarely do troubled guys shoot up the board.

 

as for head vs arm — you have to check all the boxes as serviceable and then have a few real standout qualities. 

 

Vic obviously didn’t foresee that leaf was going to be a methed out felon in this debate. He simply saw a normal dude with a huge arm vs a Chad Pennington. Not crazy going back (though it seems things like leaf missing workouts with teams and such would mean he didn’t check the box for head)

Edited April 8, 2018 by NoSaint