Jordan Palmer on Josh Allen

[transplantbillsfan]

On ‎4‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 6:27 AM, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No, that's not my logic. 

 

Again, I'm not pounding the table for him, but he's going to get taken in the top ten and it's very understandable why.

 

Disagree.

 

Not understandable why to me.

 

First of all, Allen massively regressed statistically in college in every way.  He didn't get better

 

It's been 39 years since a QB from a small school against low level competition with mediocre success and a comparatively but seriously low completion % as it relates to his peers was drafted in the top 10 of the NFL draft.

 

That was Phil Simms.

 

Brett Favre is maybe the best QB to meet that criteria but he was drafted in the 2nd round and had a HOF career with another team, not the team that drafted him.

 

 

There is almost ZERO precedent for thinking it's understandable why Josh Allen would be drafted in the top 10.

 

And I'm not even saying he won't go on to be a Franchise QB in the NFL in a few years.  But you DO NOT spend a top 10 pick on that guy.

 

 

I'm going to be more shocked if Allen is drafted in the top 5 of this draft than if he slides well out of the top 10.  I'm prepared and almost hoping to be shocked because I really don't want to see Allen slide to us at #12 and stare in terror as Goodell reads "with the 12th selection in the NFL draft, the Buffalo Bills select Josh Allen, Wyoming."

 

If we trade into the top 5 targeting Josh Allen, I guess I'm just going to have to get on board and delude myself with what I'm calling now as an absolutely horrible move.

 

[Nihilarian]

On ‎4‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 6:47 AM, Thurman#1 said:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/21/themmqb-podcast-peter-king-bears-head-coach-matt-nagy-jordan-palmer-quarterback-coach-sam-darnold

 

At about 1:06:30

 

Worth noting that Palmer has no financial interest in any of the QBs he works with, but he's been working with Darnold and Allen very extensively.

 

By the way, I tried to find if this had been written about, I searched the boards, couldn't find anything. If this has already been posted, I apologize. Anyway ...

 

King:  "Josh Allen completed 56% of his passes at Wyoming in his career. In 1987 that might've been pretty good. In 2017, that stinks. So what did you do with him and what gives you any reason to think that he's going to be a more accurate pro than he was collegian?"

 

Palmer:  "It's a good question and I'll start by saying I'm a guy that believes that the most important thing you've got to do in football as a quarterback you've got to be accurate and you've got to be a guy who can complete balls. And the other thing is I don't really care if you have a giant arm. Because most of the balls that are thrown in the league are ... I call them layers ... you're layering it in there. You don't throw the ball as hard as you can every play.

 

"With that being said, when I dug deeper on Josh, you know I've seen every play a bunch of times and I've spent a ton of time with him. And I really know the story, like way more than any front office does, just because of the exposure that I've had to it. I look at it two ways. You look at the 56% completion percentage ... there's what he's doing with the ball and there's what's on the receiving end.

 

"And what's happening on the receiving end at Wyoming ... he wouldn't say any of this stuff, I can just call a spade a spade, and the front office guys that are watching this tape, they're going to see it too. There's a lot of discrepancies around depth and the angle and some of those guys couldn't catch it (inaudible) throw the ball hard.

 

"And they had to manufacture completions and they weren't the best team on the field every week. They have a great coaching staff, they have a couple really good players, but Josh is running around trying to make plays. So when you don't have timing and separation ... I'm not saying everybody has to be open every play but when you don't have timing and separation it causes you to wait to see it open and then throw it late.

 

"And when you couple those two things together and he has a bazooka attached to his shoulder, they're not in an offense where they're trying to get as many completions as they can and kick bubble screens the whole time. One of the things that manipulates what you just said about 1983 versus now is the amount of essentially handoffs that are completed in college football. The swings, the bubbles the (nows?) the quick slants, they didn't have a lot of those, so that right now is going to trim down some completions right there.

 

"And then on Josh's end, the part that he has to own is his inaccuracy a lot of it was tied to a couple of mechanical things. The root of it, though, mechanics-wise was the base. So when you watch him on tape next time ... what you'll see is he'll get up on his toes and bounce and immediately take a big front stride with his left foot. I call it an overstride. When you overstride it puts you in a position where you can do a couple of things wrong now. You can lean a little too much, you can not bring your hip through so you're going to bend forward. and when you do either of those two things your elbow is going to drop and your release point is going to lower and it's going to be hard to put touch on it."

 

...

 

"To boil it down there was two things happening. On the receiving end, there's a lack of continuity, a lack of timing and a lack of separation. On Josh's end, he was putting himself in a position mechanically where he was overstriding and it was causing him to miss.

 

"We've addressed the overstride. You saw it a little bit in Mobile you saw it a lot more in Indianapolis and we're going to see it a ton on Friday in Wyoming. I think he'll only miss two or three throws on Friday out of 70. And he's going to be throwing to guys at the next level where it's going to be (inaudible) on timing and accuracy and separation. 

 

"So, I'm big on ... I wanna see a guy who can complete balls. And I don't care about arm talent. But this dude is probably as talented an arm as I've ever seen. And I've seen him throw a lot in three months. And over the next couple of years you're going to see a guy who's going to be deadly accurate. I think he's going to be a superstar."

 

 

 

To me, there's always been a weird disconnect between the obvious completion percentage problem and the way that the pundits and scouts and sources talk about him. And this strikes me as the likely reason why.

 

I've always had real questions about him and hoped the Bills would avoid him. I no longer feel that way. 

 

But feel free to disagree.  :-)

 

It's certainly a really interesting segment with Jordan Palmer, with a lot on Darnold and a lot on QBing in general.

 

 

4

Thanks for posting.

 

Listening to Allen talk with Mike Mayock on the NFL network after his combine workout Allen knew his footwork was a mess last year and is working to improve it. Considering he only played two years of college ball my take is there is a good chance he can continue to improve.

 

"And over the next couple of years you're going to see a guy who's going to be deadly accurate. I think he's going to be a superstar."

 

I'm buying into the above statement by Carson Palmer's brother. and  http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2018/03/jordan_palmer_on_browns_candid.html

 

I only hope the Browns, Jets don't draft him as they will likely ruin him. 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

17 hours ago, billsredneck1 said:

the bolded just struck something with me. from now on when i think about qb prospects, i will ask myself....

can this guy come in at least, at some point in year one and competently start? if i think the answer is yes, then in my mind he is a 1st rd. pick....so

rosen....yes

darnold...yes

mayfield...yes

rudolph...borderline 1-2

allen ...at least 2 full yrs. before starting material.

 

You threw Rudolph in there and left out Jackson...

 

why???

3 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Thanks for posting.

 

Listening to Allen talk with Mike Mayock on the NFL network after his combine workout Allen knew his footwork was a mess last year and is working to improve it. Considering he only played two years of college ball my take is there is a good chance he can continue to improve.

 

"And over the next couple of years you're going to see a guy who's going to be deadly accurate. I think he's going to be a superstar."

 

I'm buying into the above statement by Carson Palmer's brother. and  http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2018/03/jordan_palmer_on_browns_candid.html

 

I only hope the Browns, Jets don't draft him as they will likely ruin him. 

 

 

I hope they do, so we don't

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

Watching the tape on Allen, I think he's got the strongest arm I've ever seen.  It's like someone shot a football out of a cannon.  It's kind of unbelievable unless you watch it yourself.

 

So I get the hype.  But EVERYTHING about this guy is basically going to depend on the intangibles, i.e., evaluating him as a student of the game, as a teammate, as a committed human being.  Does a team think he has the IT factor that can turn his roughness into a diamond?  Is he the exception that disproves the rule?  It's possible.  I don't know.  He seems like a decent fellow from his interviews.  But I wouldn't draft him in the top 10.  I wouldn't draft him over Rosen, or Mayfield, or Darnold.  I might not even draft him in the first round.

 

But DAMN, that arm!  WOW!
 

Edited April 6, 2018 by {::'KayCeeS::}

[Thurman#1]

10 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Disagree.

 

Not understandable why to me.

 

First of all, Allen massively regressed statistically in college in every way.  He didn't get better

 

It's been 39 years since a QB from a small school against low level competition with mediocre success and a comparatively but seriously low completion % as it relates to his peers was drafted in the top 10 of the NFL draft.

 

That was Phil Simms.

 

Brett Favre is maybe the best QB to meet that criteria but he was drafted in the 2nd round and had a HOF career with another team, not the team that drafted him.

 

 

There is almost ZERO precedent for thinking it's understandable why Josh Allen would be drafted in the top 10.

 

And I'm not even saying he won't go on to be a Franchise QB in the NFL in a few years.  But you DO NOT spend a top 10 pick on that guy.

 

 

I'm going to be more shocked if Allen is drafted in the top 5 of this draft than if he slides well out of the top 10.  I'm prepared and almost hoping to be shocked because I really don't want to see Allen slide to us at #12 and stare in terror as Goodell reads "with the 12th selection in the NFL draft, the Buffalo Bills select Josh Allen, Wyoming."

 

If we trade into the top 5 targeting Josh Allen, I guess I'm just going to have to get on board and delude myself with what I'm calling now as an absolutely horrible move.

 

 

 

If you don't understand why, that's on you.

 

Some people think he can change and improve as Palmer says. It's that simple.

 

Disagree? Fine. Reasonable.

 

Don't understand, though? That's on you.

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Nihilarian]

5 hours ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

Watching the tape on Allen, I think he's got the strongest arm I've ever seen.  It's like someone shot a football out of a cannon.  It's kind of unbelievable unless you watch it yourself.

 

So I get the hype.  But EVERYTHING about this guy is basically going to depend on the intangibles, i.e., evaluating him as a student of the game, as a teammate, as a committed human being.  Does a team think he has the IT factor that can turn his roughness into a diamond?  Is he the exception that disproves the rule?  It's possible.  I don't know.  He seems like a decent fellow from his interviews.  But I wouldn't draft him in the top 10.  I wouldn't draft him over Rosen, or Mayfield, or Darnold.  I might not even draft him in the first round.

 

But DAMN, that arm!  WOW!
 

Yes, the arm is amazing. But there is more to Allen than just his arm. Watch him in the senior bowl with much better talent on both sides of the ball then he is used to playing with. The kid shrugs off would be sackers like Big Ben and if given time to throw can put a camel thru a needle.

 

It was at Wyoming when his line broke down usually before 2 1/2 seconds those bad things happened and Allen was forced to make the play work on his own...and that he did. Think about it, as Wyoming went 8-5 last year and won their bowl game. What happened at UCLA last year with a supposed better QB and a better supporting cast as they went 5-6 and lost their bowl game. UCLA had a receiver with 1264 yards, 9 TDs. 

 

The biggest thing Bills fans need to understand is Allen has already committed to becoming a more accurate QB since finishing college. Unlike some real bums, Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf.

 

The only way this kid busts is if the team that drafts him gets impatient and starts him right away on a bad team and the NY Jets look like that type of team, Cleveland also looks that bad. 

 

I hope the Bills move up to #2 to get him if the Browns don't select him #1 overall. 

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

If you don't understand why, that's on you.

 

Some people think he can change and improve as Palmer says. It's that simple.

 

Disagree? Fine. Reasonable.

 

Don't understand, though? That's on you.

 

 

Josh big.

 

Josh move.

 

Josh throw ball very fast.

 

Josh play in small school.

 

Josh play bad teams.

 

Josh no good in college in small school against bad teams.

 

I teach Josh. I wait long time for Josh get better.

 

I spend top 10 pick on Josh. He change history.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I actually understand that as the thought process, but it's a dumb one, so I disagree.

Edited April 6, 2018 by transplantbillsfan

[metzelaars_lives]

13 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Josh big.

 

Josh move.

 

Josh throw ball very fast.

 

Josh no good in college, but can teach Josh and wait long time.

 

I spend top 10 pick on Josh. He change history.

 

 

Yeah, I actually understand that as the thought process, but it's a dumb one, so I disagree. 

UUUUUGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!  Dude, for the millionth time, HE WAS REALLY GOOD IN 2016!  This idea that he sucked in college is just not true.  It's a blatantly false narrative.  He was the best player on the field most games he played in as a college QB.  The numbers were not flashy this year, everyone knows that.  For the billionth time, he lost EVERYONE and was playing with unheralded freshmen recruits at every skill position.  His starting running back went from the school's all time leading rusher and a guy currently on the Bengals, to a freshman who converted from linebacker right before the season started.  I can't wait for this to be over.

 

Again, he was the 2016 MWC first team all conference QB (in his first season as a D1 player) and was named the 2017 MWC preseason player of the year going into 2017.  Stop saying he "wasn't good."

Edited April 6, 2018 by metzelaars_lives

[transplantbillsfan]

11 minutes ago, metzelaars_lives said:

UUUUUGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!  Dude, for the millionth time, HE WAS REALLY GOOD IN 2016!  This idea that he sucked in college is just not true.  It's a blatantly false narrative.  He was the best player on the field most games he played in as a college QB.  The numbers were not flashy this year, everyone knows that.  For the billionth time, he lost EVERYONE and was playing with unheralded freshmen recruits at every skill position.  His starting running back went from the school's all time leading rusher and a guy currently on the Bengals, to a freshman who converted from linebacker right before the season started.  I can't wait for this to be over.

 

Again, he was the 2016 MWC first team all conference QB (in his first season as a D1 player) and was named the 2017 MWC preseason player of the year going into 2017.  Stop saying he "wasn't good."

 

Really good?

 

56% completion % for 3200 yards with less than 30 TDs and worse than a 2:1 TD:INT ratio is really good for a top NFL prospect at a small school against bad teams in college?

 

Yeah, that's not "really good" when you think of a top 5-10 NFL QB prospect.

 

Plus... ya know... he got worse, not better in college.

[metzelaars_lives]

15 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Really good?

 

56% completion % for 3200 yards with less than 30 TDs and worse than a 2:1 TD:INT ratio is really good for a top NFL prospect at a small school against bad teams in college?

 

Yeah, that's not "really good" when you think of a top 5-10 NFL QB prospect.

 

Plus... ya know... he got worse, not better in college.

Do I need to do this again?

 

Last time:

 

He throws the ball downfield.  They do not incorporate screens, dump offs to running backs, checkdowns into their offense.  Their running back, Brian Hill, who (I believe) was third in the nation in rushing in 2016, caught EIGHT PASSES all season.  Naturally, his completion percentage is going to be a bit less.  As far as the interceptions, yes, he is a bit of a "gunslinger" and attempts ill-advised passes from time to time.  But again, it was his first season as a D1 QB.  And he was named first team all MWC.  They were 2-10 the year before and had sucked forever and made a magical run to the MWC title game (I was there in the freezing cold) that they almost won and then played valiantly in their bowl game against BYU as well.    

 

He did not "get worse."  Feel free to go back to the thread on here during the Iowa game in week 1.  I was telling everyone who would listen that he wouldn't have as a good of a year, his numbers wouldn't look as good and the team would be worse.  HE DID NOT REGRESS AS A PLAYER.  He lost, again, his top two RB's, his top two WR's, his TE and his C- four of whom played in the NFL last season.  His entire skill position group was comprised of raw, unheralded freshmen playing their first games as D1 athletes and one sophomore (CJ Johnson) who had a horrible case of the dropsies at times last year.  So when you talk about competition, yes, the defensive backs aren't as good but neither is his line, his receivers, etc.- which, I can assure you, was certainly the case in 2017.

 

Please, PLEASE don't try and school me on Josh Allen.  I have watched every game he played as a college QB and attended four of them.  I do not think he is the end-all-be-all QB prospect (I have him ranked #2 or 3 behind Mayfield and MAYBE Rosen).  But this idea that he "wasn't good" in college is absurd and patently false.

Edited April 6, 2018 by metzelaars_lives

[Thurman#1]

41 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Josh big.

 

Josh move.

 

Josh throw ball very fast.

 

Josh play in small school.

 

Josh play bad teams.

 

Josh no good in college in small school against bad teams.

 

I teach Josh. I wait long time for Josh get better.

 

I spend top 10 pick on Josh. He change history.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I actually understand that as the thought process, but it's a dumb one, so I disagree.

 

Same old Transplant. "I don't understand." Then, "I understand" and in repeating it back miss the point. Classic. 

 

Not that anyone can take a guy with your record of being so relentlessly consistently utterly wrong on Tyrod seriously about QBs anyway.

 

How well I remember your opinions that he was a franchise QB, that he was almost elite, that he wasn't a bridge, that he wouldn't take a pay cut, and even right up till they traded him that he was going to be the Bills starter this year ... Every one of them and dozens more held weeks and months too long for the sensible Tyrod fans to do anything but try to turn their heads away in embarrassment. Ah, the sound of wrongness.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Thurman#1

[transplantbillsfan]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

Same old Transplant. "I don't understand." Then, "I understand" and in repeating it back miss the point. Classic. 

 

Not that anyone can take a guy with your record of being so relentlessly consistently utterly wrong on Tyrod seriously about QBs anyway.

 

How well I remember your opinions that he was a franchise QB, that he was almost elite, that he wasn't a bridge, that he wouldn't take a pay cut, and even right up till they traded him that he was going to be the Bills starter this year ... Every one of them and dozens more held weeks and months too long for the sensible Tyrod fans to do anything but try to turn their heads away in embarrassment. Ah, the sound of wrongness.

 

 

 

 

 

Same old Thurm, taking a phrase like "I don't understand" for its denotative meaning rather than its obviously intended connotative meaning.

 

And my oh my... you sure are obsessed with Tyrod.  Seems weird you keep bringing up a QB of another team.

Edited April 6, 2018 by transplantbillsfan

[Batman1876]

I thought this would be a Palmer/Allen fanfic. 

[Mat68]

Picking Allen in the top 10 comes down to arrogance.  Coaches and GM's in the NFL reek of it.  Every one here without much argument can agree he is the most naturally gifted Qb in the draft in term of arm and his size and speed.  If you take the top 20 throws from every top qb prospect which one of the prospects would show off the most pro level throws out of that 20?  That would be Allen as well.  So he is the more naturally gifted guy, you have tape of him doing exactly what you need him to do in the NFL.  It comes down to coaching and the offensive staff to make sure his does those 20 throws every time.  If you cant do that what are your doing?  That is where the arrogance comes in.  To a man I do not believe an offensive mind or coach would shy away of wanting Allen as his QB.  Your job is to coach offensive football.  the guy who can make every throw and also buy time if the play breaks down, and can throw it over the saftey is all things that would make a team take a very hard look at Allen.  He is not the safest Qb but I think Gms will bet on talent more than anything else.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Mat68

[transplantbillsfan]

4 hours ago, metzelaars_lives said:

Do I need to do this again?

 

Last time:

 

He throws the ball downfield.  They do not incorporate screens, dump offs to running backs, checkdowns into their offense.  Their running back, Brian Hill, who (I believe) was third in the nation in rushing in 2016, caught EIGHT PASSES all season.  Naturally, his completion percentage is going to be a bit less.  As far as the interceptions, yes, he is a bit of a "gunslinger" and attempts ill-advised passes from time to time.  But again, it was his first season as a D1 QB.  And he was named first team all MWC.  They were 2-10 the year before and had sucked forever and made a magical run to the MWC title game (I was there in the freezing cold) that they almost won and then played valiantly in their bowl game against BYU as well.    

 

He did not "get worse."  Feel free to go back to the thread on here during the Iowa game in week 1.  I was telling everyone who would listen that he wouldn't have as a good of a year, his numbers wouldn't look as good and the team would be worse.  HE DID NOT REGRESS AS A PLAYER.  He lost, again, his top two RB's, his top two WR's, his TE and his C- four of whom played in the NFL last season.  His entire skill position group was comprised of raw, unheralded freshmen playing their first games as D1 athletes and one sophomore (CJ Johnson) who had a horrible case of the dropsies at times last year.  So when you talk about competition, yes, the defensive backs aren't as good but neither is his line, his receivers, etc.- which, I can assure you, was certainly the case in 2017.

 

Please, PLEASE don't try and school me on Josh Allen.  I have watched every game he played as a college QB and attended four of them.  I do not think he is the end-all-be-all QB prospect (I have him ranked #2 or 3 behind Mayfield and MAYBE Rosen).  But this idea that he "wasn't good" in college is absurd and patently false.

 

It's interesting you're saying they don't incorporate screens, dump offs or checkdowns in their offense.  I went on youtube to try to see if any of those "all the throws" from any of Josh Allen's games were up.  I found this one:

 

 

By the end of the first half alone, I counted at least 5 plays where easy outlet passes/ checkdowns/ dumpoffs were incorporated into the offense, so your claim that "Allen is required to throw the ball down the field all the time because his offense doesn't provide him any other options!!!" seems less true than the fact that it looks like Allen likes to play Hero Ball.  Just in watching that footage and what I've seen from him otherwise, he sure looks like he struggles after his first read.

 

And damn, his accuracy issues are also real because he seems to wildly miss some throws that should be gimmes.

 

Look, you've watched Allen.  You love Allen.  You're a Wyoming fan, so no surprise.

 

Allen might be great in the NFL eventually.

 

Problem is, if he has to sit for a couple years before he can really step in and be successful, you've eaten half his rookie contract after probably having to give away multiple picks to move up and get him.

 

If we stay at 12 and Allen falls to us and we draft him, I'll get behind that move relatively quickly.  But you don't trade up for a prospect like Allen.  Or you shouldn't.

Edited April 6, 2018 by transplantbillsfan

[Thurman#1]

On 4/7/2018 at 6:31 AM, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Same old Thurm, taking a phrase like "I don't understand" for its denotative meaning rather than its obviously intended connotative meaning.

 

And my oh my... you sure are obsessed with Tyrod.  Seems weird you keep bringing up a QB of another team.

 

 

BWAH HA HA HA HA!!!! I'm obsessed with Tyrod? Oh, that's a good one.

 

I'm obsessed with Tyrod, says the guy who spent literally thousands of posts, very likely approaching if not exceeding ten thousand on both forums desperately getting it wrong on the guy, unable to stop telling everybody how wrong they were on him!!!!! Funny stuff. I forget how many times you started polls with tags like "Let's go on record about ..." something about how Tyrod was going to be terrific and everyone else was wrong.

 

You're on record, and it's mostly due to you.

 

So yeah, when you start going on about your opinions on QBs, expect it to be brought up how far beyond questionable into brain-dead your opinions on quarterbacks have been. That's life, dude. When you have an obsession,  people notice. And when your obsession turns  to wanting to forget your old views, there's no reason for us to let go of how desperately you yourself wanted to go on record about how wrong everyone but you was.

 

If you've proved one thing over the years here it's that you don't know quarterbacks and especially you don't know what kind of quarterbacks the Bills need.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Thurman#1

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

On 4/6/2018 at 7:34 AM, Nihilarian said:

Yes, the arm is amazing. But there is more to Allen than just his arm. Watch him in the senior bowl with much better talent on both sides of the ball then he is used to playing with. The kid shrugs off would be sackers like Big Ben and if given time to throw can put a camel thru a needle.

 

It was at Wyoming when his line broke down usually before 2 1/2 seconds those bad things happened and Allen was forced to make the play work on his own...and that he did. Think about it, as Wyoming went 8-5 last year and won their bowl game. What happened at UCLA last year with a supposed better QB and a better supporting cast as they went 5-6 and lost their bowl game. UCLA had a receiver with 1264 yards, 9 TDs. 

 

The biggest thing Bills fans need to understand is Allen has already committed to becoming a more accurate QB since finishing college. Unlike some real bums, Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf.

 

The only way this kid busts is if the team that drafts him gets impatient and starts him right away on a bad team and the NY Jets look like that type of team, Cleveland also looks that bad. 

 

I hope the Bills move up to #2 to get him if the Browns don't select him #1 overall. 

 

That's a solid argument.  I do understand his line breaking down and what he did with that, I saw that on the film.  I have not watched the Senior Bowl film, but I will now that you've piqued my curiosity.  And I like the kid, he seems like he's got a head on his shoulders,  that he's committed, etc.  I'm rooting for him, and I hope you're right.  As to UCLA: they also had literally one of the worst defenses in the country.   So there's that, but that's another argument.

[transplantbillsfan]

9 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

BWAH HA HA HA HA!!!! I'm obsessed with Tyrod? Oh, that's a good one.

 

I'm obsessed with Tyrod, says the guy who spent literally thousands of posts, very likely approaching if not exceeding ten thousand on both forums desperately getting it wrong on the guy, unable to stop telling everybody how wrong they were on him!!!!! Funny stuff. I forget how many times you started polls with tags like "Let's go on record about ..." something about how Tyrod was going to be terrific and everyone else was wrong.

 

You're on record, and it's mostly due to you.

 

So yeah, when you start going on about your opinions on QBs, expect it to be brought up how far beyond questionable into brain-dead your opinions on quarterbacks have been. That's life, dude. When you have an obsession,  people notice. And when your obsession turns  to wanting to forget your old views, there's no reason for us to let go of how desperately you yourself wanted to go on record about how wrong everyone but you was.

 

If you've proved one thing over the years here it's that you don't know quarterbacks and especially you don't know what kind of quarterbacks the Bills need.

 

Hmmmm... maybe you're right... you aren't obsessed with Tyrod.

 

You're just obsessed with me, which makes it appear as though you're obsessed with Tyrod since I used to talk about him a lot. Interesting...

 

How cute

Edited April 9, 2018 by transplantbillsfan

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Hmmmm... maybe you're right... you aren't obsessed with Tyrod.

 

You're just obsessed with me, which makes it appear as though you're obsessed with Tyrod since I used to talk about him a lot. Interesting...

 

How cute

 

 

Yeah, it's me obsessed with you? Is it me calling you cute? And filling in with the femmy little emos? It's you obsessed with me, dude.

 

But yeah, when you talk QBs as if you knew about them, I am indeed going to remind people that your record says just the opposite, and you yourself set the knobs to 11 on your spectacularly, consistently wrong take on our QB situation.

 

For three long severely dumb years, you spent thousands of posts telling everyone how wrong they were when they said he wasn't a franchise QB, when they said he couldn't throw to the deep and intermediate middle, when they said he didn't throw until he saw guys open  and when they said he was obviously going to be gone before the 2018 season and all the other correct things that people said and you denied over and over and over again.

 

Edited April 9, 2018 by Thurman#1

[HappyDays]

 

[JohnC]

On ‎4‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 7:29 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

In my mind because the floor is so low.  To merit a 1st round pick I want to believe that even if you don't become my franchise guy you might be capable of contributing in some way.  As high as the ceiling is Allen to me the floor is total, epic level bust. You are gambling on so many levels with him the way I see it.  How many of those genuine coin flip types have worked out?  I feel like most guys who go top 10 have a higher ceiling than Josh Allen.  To me he is a project you need to sit him at least a year and you need to rebuild some of his game.  

I don't understand the argument that by having a redshirt year in the pros that it is a strike against you. Goff and Mahomes didn't play much in their rookie years. For Goff that year mostly spent on the bench not only didn't hurt him but it enhanced his preparation. The mostly bench year for Mahomes allowed him to understudy to the point that the KC staff felt that he was ready to take over for their established qb. Dak Prescott certainly wasn't a polished prospect when he was drafted in the fourth round. Yet he was able to fairly quickly adapt to the pro game. 

 

When taking a calculated risk on a qb you have to consider not only his physical tools but also his personal qualities. If the prospect is a worker and is receptive to coaching then it's worth the gamble. Few would argue with you that Rosen is more of a finished product than Allen. On the other hand few can argue that Allen is more mobile and more durable than Rosen. Would I draft Rosen over Allen? Yes. But if my preferred option wasn't available then I would have no qualms taking Allen as a good option with the potential to end up being the best option. 

 

Going back to the Prescott analogy Allen is no less a prospect than Prescoot was coming out of college. (Most people would say he is a better prospect.) If he turns into a comparable player then who could say that it was a risk not worth taking.? The mistake made when evaluating qbs  is that the issue shouldn't be what round you have him graded at. The issue is whether the qb has the potential to develop into a franchise qb. If you believe the answer is yes then drafting the qb prospect higher than his grade is the right thing to do. Dak Prescott and Russell Wilson clearly demonstrate that point. Allowing perfect to be the enemy of doing good is a self-sabotaging philosophy to take when making a decision on a qb.  

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

20 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, it's me obsessed with you? Is it me calling you cute? And filling in with the femmy little emos? It's you obsessed with me, dude.

 

But yeah, when you talk QBs as if you knew about them, I am indeed going to remind people that your record says just the opposite, and you yourself set the knobs to 11 on your spectacularly, consistently wrong take on our QB situation.

 

For three long severely dumb years, you spent thousands of posts telling everyone how wrong they were when they said he wasn't a franchise QB, when they said he couldn't throw to the deep and intermediate middle, when they said he didn't throw until he saw guys open  and when they said he was obviously going to be gone before the 2018 season and all the other correct things that people said and you denied over and over and over again.

 

 

Weird... didn't know the "I know you are but what am I!!!" comeback was still a thing

 

Yep... pretty clearly you're obsessed with me.

 

I came here to talk about Josh Allen, the substance of the thread. 

 

Instead of talking like an adult about the substance of your own post, which i

I've responded to OR ignoring me, you continue to talk about me.

 

Obsessed!!!

 

I'm flattered 

 

867-5309, you merely had to ask Sugah 

Edited April 10, 2018 by transplantbillsfan

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

I don't understand the argument that by having a redshirt year in the pros that it is a strike against you. Goff and Mahomes didn't play much in their rookie years. For Goff that year mostly spent on the bench not only didn't hurt him but it enhanced his preparation. The mostly bench year for Mahomes allowed him to understudy to the point that the KC staff felt that he was ready to take over for their established qb. Dak Prescott certainly wasn't a polished prospect when he was drafted in the fourth round. Yet he was able to fairly quickly adapt to the pro game. 

 

When taking a calculated risk on a qb you have to consider not only his physical tools but also his personal qualities. If the prospect is a worker and is receptive to coaching then it's worth the gamble. Few would argue with you that Rosen is more of a finished product than Allen. On the other hand few can argue that Allen is more mobile and more durable than Rosen. Would I draft Rosen over Allen? Yes. But if my preferred option wasn't available then I would have no qualms taking Allen as a good option with the potential to end up being the best option. 

 

Going back to the Prescott analogy Allen is no less a prospect than Prescoot was coming out of college. (Most people would say he is a better prospect.) If he turns into a comparable player then who could say that it was a risk not worth taking.? The mistake made when evaluating qbs  is that the issue shouldn't be what round you have him graded at. The issue is whether the qb has the potential to develop into a franchise qb. If you believe the answer is yes then drafting the qb prospect higher than his grade is the right thing to do. Dak Prescott and Russell Wilson clearly demonstrate that point. Allowing perfect to be the enemy of doing good is a self-sabotaging philosophy to take when making a decision on a qb.  

 

 

 

Sure, but Prescott was drafted in the 4th round.

 

The Cowboys used their 1st rounder on Zeke Elliot... and did you notice what happened to Prescott without him on the field?

 

So if you're saying we can get Allen in the 2nd-4th round... I agree, very worth that risk

[JohnC]

26 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Sure, but Prescott was drafted in the 4th round.

 

The Cowboys used their 1st rounder on Zeke Elliot... and did you notice what happened to Prescott without him on the field?

 

So if you're saying we can get Allen in the 2nd-4th round... I agree, very worth that risk

There is a major difference between the Buffalo situation and the Cowboy situation. The Bills haven't had a legitimate franchise qb for nearly a quarter century. The Cowboys had a legitimate franchise qb for more than a decade prior to drafting Prescott. If drafting a qb isn't a priority for the Bills then when is it?  If you are arguing that the Bills should wait on the qb issue then your position is apparently contra to the position that this regime appears to be taking. If you are arguing that it is more important to draft a back higher than a qb then that is an absurd position to take for this franchise. If you want to wait on this issue then wait all you want. Just don't be surprised that while waiting at the bus stop it blows by you without stopping. If your destination is the road to nowhere just keep putting the priority off.

[transplantbillsfan]

14 minutes ago, JohnC said:

There is a major difference between the Buffalo situation and the Cowboy situation. The Bills haven't had a legitimate franchise qb for nearly a quarter century. The Cowboys had a legitimate franchise qb for more than a decade prior to drafting Prescott. If drafting a qb isn't a priority for the Bills then when is it?  If you are arguing that the Bills should wait on the qb issue then your position is apparently contra to the position that this regime appears to be taking. If you are arguing that it is more important to draft a back higher than a qb then that is an absurd position to take for this franchise. If you want to wait on this issue then wait all you want. Just don't be surprised that while waiting at the bus stop it blows by you without stopping. If your destination is the road to nowhere just keep putting the priority off.

 

Who wants to wait?

 

I sure as hell don't.

 

I've been pounding the table to trade up for a QB for a while now

 

 

I just don't think it should be for a guy like Allen, who, as Gunner put it earlier, might have a very high ceiling, but also has a crazy low floor.

 

Trade up for Darnold, Rosen or Mayfield.  Definitely not Allen.

 

I definitely want us to fix the problem.

 

I really don't believe Allen fixes the problem.

[JohnC]

23 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Who wants to wait?

 

I sure as hell don't.

 

I've been pounding the table to trade up for a QB for a while now

 

 

I just don't think it should be for a guy like Allen, who, as Gunner put it earlier, might have a very high ceiling, but also has a crazy low floor.

 

Trade up for Darnold, Rosen or Mayfield.  Definitely not Allen.

 

I definitely want us to fix the problem.

 

I really don't believe Allen fixes the problem.

We really don't disagree as much as it may seem. There are  plenty of different evaluations on the top tier prospects. You and others may have a negative view on Allen while others have the opposite view. Bandit is much more optimistic on Allen's prospects than Gunner. And both of them have good eyes when evaluating prospects. With respect to Allen I'm aware that he requires more developmental time than some of the other prospects. That doesn't bother me at all. If it takes a couple of years to get acclimated to the pros then so be it. I'm not excluding a talented player just because he wouldn't have an immediate impact.. In my opinion the two most pro ready qbs are Rosen and Mayfield.  

 

What I have said on a number of posts is that I am open to a variety of candidates. Whether the Bills make a dramatic move up the board or stand pat to select a qb I'm open to the approach.. While you are more adverse to Allen for the reasons you stated I'm less reluctant to take a chance on him with a first round pick. Although he wouldn't be at the top of my list he would still be on my list to draw from if that is how this draft unfolds. 

[Fadingpain]

On April 3, 2018 at 8:40 AM, jrober38 said:

 

Kiper and Mayock love big, strong, athletic QBs who have huge arms and terrible game tape. 

They pound the table for these type of players every year. 

The funny thing is that if you could pick only 1 QB from history to be your franchise QB for his entire career, you'd probably take Tom Brady.  We all know how effective and successful he has been.

Yet look how many times he relies on a "big arm" to fire the ball around the field.  Almost all the time he is dialing the throttle back and completing short little passes or mid-range stuff....and that's all you need to do.

 

If you can consistently complete a 4 yard or greater pass, you should move 80 yards down the field every possession you have.

 

 

[CamboBill]

To me Allen looks like a good "raw material" prospects to that would be a good speculative pick at 1/22, and a bit of a reach at 1/12.  I cannot imagine him being a top 3 pick ... at some point you have to consider the numbers and tape, no matter all the narrative around them.

[transplantbillsfan]

14 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

The little I've watched of him, including those "all the throws" from the Boise St game I posted, just looks like a guy who's not a natural QB. And despite one of the perks for him supposedly being his familiarity with a pro style offense, much like Carson Wentz, he often looked pretty uncomfortable executing that offense, unlike Carson Wentz.

 

Just say no to Josh Allen!

[Thurman#1]

12 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Weird... didn't know the "I know you are but what am I!!!" comeback was still a thing

 

Yep... pretty clearly you're obsessed with me.

 

I came here to talk about Josh Allen, the substance of the thread. 

 

Instead of talking like an adult about the substance of your own post, which i

I've responded to OR ignoring me, you continue to talk about me.

 

Obsessed!!!

 

I'm flattered 

 

867-5309, you merely had to ask Sugah 

 

 

Who was it who posted the romantic girly emo with the hearts? And now are telling me to phone and calling me endearments? Oh, yeah, you.

 

And yup, I talked about you. Specifically, how your record shows with specificity and extreme efficiency that you know absolutely nothing about the QB position except how to be consistently wrong about it. Yup, I talked about that and will continue to do so. It was you who went so very far about putting everyone on record about QBs. You kept posting polls and telling everyone they should go on record. And then when someone calls you on that record you're all surprised and butt-hurt. 

 

You brought this on yourself.

 

I'm finished with this for now, but yeah, when you start to act like you know something about QBs again, I'll bring up the inexhaustible proof you lavished on this board for three years that you don't know squat about them.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

15 hours ago, JohnC said:

I don't understand the argument that by having a redshirt year in the pros that it is a strike against you. Goff and Mahomes didn't play much in their rookie years. For Goff that year mostly spent on the bench not only didn't hurt him but it enhanced his preparation.

 

 

 

Yup, this.

 

Probably Brady, Brees and Rodgers are the three best in the league. Each got a year off, minimum, to learn and watch and figure things out.

 

Nothing wrong with needing development. It's not ideal, but if a guy becomes a franchise QB, that he needs a year on the bench to do so is all but inconsequential.

[transplantbillsfan]

17 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Who was it who posted the romantic girly emo with the hearts? And now are telling me to phone and calling me endearments? Oh, yeah, you.

 

And yup, I talked about you. Specifically, how your record shows with specificity and extreme efficiency that you know absolutely nothing about the QB position except how to be consistently wrong about it. Yup, I talked about that and will continue to do so. It was you who went so very far about putting everyone on record about QBs. You kept posting polls and telling everyone they should go on record. And then when someone calls you on that record you're all surprised and butt-hurt. 

 

You brought this on yourself.

 

I'm finished with this for now, but yeah, when you start to act like you know something about QBs again, I'll bring up the inexhaustible proof you lavished on this board for three years that you don't know squat about them.

 

Still talking about me.

 

Weird.

 

And a little sad.

 

Sad because of some very obvious warped misrepresentations in your memory.

 

Yep, I've been wrong about multiple things.

 

Sometimes I've been wildly wrong.

 

As have you.

 

Our startling difference? I'm happy to admit when I'm wrong. You... not so much.

 

Demonstrates that you have some stunted emotional or intellectual development going on over there. I hope you work that out, for your own day to day well-being

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Still talking about me.

 

Weird.

 

And a little sad.

 

Sad because of some very obvious warped misrepresentations in your memory.

 

Yep, I've been wrong about multiple things.

 

Sometimes I've been wildly wrong.

 

As have you.

 

Our startling difference? I'm happy to admit when I'm wrong. You... not so much.

 

Demonstrates that you have some stunted emotional or intellectual development going on over there. I hope you work that out, for your own day to day well-being

 

 

Well, yeah, if "you" is your inability to get anything whatsoever right about quarterbacks over a long three year period, yeah, I'm talking about "you." And will continue to do so.

 

You haven't been wrong sometimes. You've been wrong virtually without exception, due to your wild Tyrod obsession.

[GunnerBill]

17 hours ago, JohnC said:

I don't understand the argument that by having a redshirt year in the pros that it is a strike against you. Goff and Mahomes didn't play much in their rookie years. For Goff that year mostly spent on the bench not only didn't hurt him but it enhanced his preparation. The mostly bench year for Mahomes allowed him to understudy to the point that the KC staff felt that he was ready to take over for their established qb. Dak Prescott certainly wasn't a polished prospect when he was drafted in the fourth round. Yet he was able to fairly quickly adapt to the pro game. 

 

When taking a calculated risk on a qb you have to consider not only his physical tools but also his personal qualities. If the prospect is a worker and is receptive to coaching then it's worth the gamble. Few would argue with you that Rosen is more of a finished product than Allen. On the other hand few can argue that Allen is more mobile and more durable than Rosen. Would I draft Rosen over Allen? Yes. But if my preferred option wasn't available then I would have no qualms taking Allen as a good option with the potential to end up being the best option. 

 

Going back to the Prescott analogy Allen is no less a prospect than Prescoot was coming out of college. (Most people would say he is a better prospect.) If he turns into a comparable player then who could say that it was a risk not worth taking.? The mistake made when evaluating qbs  is that the issue shouldn't be what round you have him graded at. The issue is whether the qb has the potential to develop into a franchise qb. If you believe the answer is yes then drafting the qb prospect higher than his grade is the right thing to do. Dak Prescott and Russell Wilson clearly demonstrate that point. Allowing perfect to be the enemy of doing good is a self-sabotaging philosophy to take when making a decision on a qb.  

 

 

 

To be clear I was not saying needing a redshirt season was a black mark against you. I think even with a redshirt season Allen is a coin flip.  

 

As for everyone having him above Dak.... nope. I have him graded below where I had Dak. 

 

I totally get that Quarterbacks are worth the risk and I suppose I would still rather the Bills take Josh Allen than come out of day 1 with no QB and two defensive pieces. I would still feel like that was a less than optimum solution though and in my mind the chances are in 2020 or 2021 we would be back in the position needing to take a QB. Possibly with the process era lying among the wreckage and another new double act taking their shot. 

 

He is my 6th QB for a reason. I see fewer of the things that I believe help a QB be successful at the next level on his tape compared to the others. 

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Well, yeah, if "you" is your inability to get anything whatsoever right about quarterbacks over a long three year period, yeah, I'm talking about "you." And will continue to do so.

 

You haven't been wrong sometimes. You've been wrong virtually without exception, due to your wild Tyrod obsession.

 

Hmmm... wrong without exception, eh???

 

Tell ya what, since you're so obsessed with me, tell me the myriad of things I've been wrong on and we'll cross-reference with reality since, ya know, obsessed people are really hard to trust, especially when they're people who are emotionally or mentally stunted in development.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't kept track of every tiny thing you've gotten wrong like you have with me since I'm more of a lemonade than lemon guy. But hey, we can work on this moving forward.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey!!!! How's this Josh Allen conversation going, anyway?

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

To be clear I was not saying needing a redshirt season was a black mark against you. I think even with a redshirt season Allen is a coin flip.  

 

As for everyone having him above Dak.... nope. I have him graded below where I had Dak. 

 

I totally get that Quarterbacks are worth the risk and I suppose I would still rather the Bills take Josh Allen than come out of day 1 with no QB and two defensive pieces. I would still feel like that was a less than optimum solution though and in my mind the chances are in 2020 or 2021 we would be back in the position needing to take a QB. Possibly with the process era lying among the wreckage and another new double act taking their shot. 

 

He is my 6th QB for a reason. I see fewer of the things that I believe help a QB be successful at the next level on his tape compared to the others. 

I'm not advocating that Allen be our first consideration as a qb prospect. If he ends up being our option then so be it. If he turns out to be a Dak caliber of qb then I won't come away disappointed. As I have stated before it doesn't matter to me what grade he or any other prospect is given or even where he ranks with his qb class. The issue is whether he can be a franchise qb for your team. I believe that if he is handled smartly he can be. 

[Domdab99]

 

Josh Allen gets over 90 despite being unable to complete passes, a stat that nobody has ever improved in the NFL vs college (with a reasonable sample size) to my knowledge.

Code:

QB career completion %
             NCAA       NFL
J. McCown    51.2       60.4
Stafford     57.1       62.0
T. Taylor    57.2       62.4
Cutler       57.2       62.0

[Air Raid NCAA offense]
G. Smith     67.4       57.9
Keenum       69.4       61.9
Weeden       69.5       57.9

 

Overall college completion % is pretty disingenuous especially since three of those players had significant freshman-year experience.

Stafford and Taylor significantly improved over the course of their college careers.

Cutler's numbers are depressed by a 48.6% completion rate as a freshman, and he was carrying the worst team in the SEC

McCown just isn't good.

 

What's Josh Allen's excuse for having a top-10 defense in a soft conference and still leading one of the worst passing offenses in FBS and not improving at all from 2016 to 2017

***************

 

Josh Allen is a massive bust and the Bills need to stay far, far away from him. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Domdab99 said:

 

Josh Allen gets over 90 despite being unable to complete passes, a stat that nobody has ever improved in the NFL vs college (with a reasonable sample size) to my knowledge.

Code:

QB career completion %
             NCAA       NFL
J. McCown    51.2       60.4
Stafford     57.1       62.0
T. Taylor    57.2       62.4
Cutler       57.2       62.0

[Air Raid NCAA offense]
G. Smith     67.4       57.9
Keenum       69.4       61.9
Weeden       69.5       57.9

 

Overall college completion % is pretty disingenuous especially since three of those players had significant freshman-year experience.

Stafford and Taylor significantly improved over the course of their college careers.

Cutler's numbers are depressed by a 48.6% completion rate as a freshman, and he was carrying the worst team in the SEC

McCown just isn't good.

 

What's Josh Allen's excuse for having a top-10 defense in a soft conference and still leading one of the worst passing offenses in FBS and not improving at all from 2016 to 2017

***************

 

Josh Allen is a massive bust and the Bills need to stay far, far away from him. 

 

I really really think 2 things are happening here:

 

1) Everyone watched Carson Wentz turn into an overnight superstar with the Eagles this year having run the same system and been in a pro-style offense like Allen... actually virtually the exact same offense as Allen against similar competition.

 

and

 

2) Allen was very good (but not great) in 2016 and was being seriously pumped up by pundits and the media as being one of the headliners to watch as a QB prospect for this draft.  He's obviously one of the most physically gifted QBs in years, so it feels easy to get on the hype train early.  Pundits and media hate being wrong, so despite a pretty wildly disappointing 2017 season, plenty of excuses are being pushed for him, so much so that he's being propped up as one of the top QBs in a strong QB class in a way that I don't think has ever happened historically in the draft.

[T master]

So they have a QB coach that couldn't stick on a NFL roster teaching them how to be a good NFL QB ! 

 

I don't see anything wrong with that  !!

[Thurman#1]

On 4/10/2018 at 5:22 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Hmmm... wrong without exception, eh???

 

Tell ya what, since you're so obsessed with me, tell me the myriad of things I've been wrong on and we'll cross-reference with reality since, ya know, obsessed people are really hard to trust, especially when they're people who are emotionally or mentally stunted in development.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't kept track of every tiny thing you've gotten wrong like you have with me since I'm more of a lemonade than lemon guy. But hey, we can work on this moving forward.

 

Hey!!!! How's this Josh Allen conversation going, anyway?

 

 

 

Yup. On the major things, wrong without exception. And the people on these boards already know, they watched you not just say these things but attempt to ram them down our throats, and repeat and repeat and repeat them due to the apparent belief that if you were the last person to talk in a thread it showed you were right. You refused to stop being wrong at volume 11.

 

I've had plenty of plenty of mistakes along the way too, but on Tyrod, I was pretty much right the whole way along. Not because I'm smart or anything but because it was pretty much obvious all the way along what the likely outcome would be.

 

I said there was a pretty decent chance that he wasn't what he'd been in his first year, that he was fairly likely to be what he'd been in the second half of the first year from the Pats game on. Correct. The remaining two years were nearly exactly the same passer rating as he'd had in that last half. That he would have to improve a lot in his second year to be a franchise QB while you were busy telling everyone he was a franchise guy. At one point for a month or so you even tried to sell that he was already near-elite, based on his QBR. I said he threw to the deep and intermediate middle very infrequently and not very well. I said he didn't throw anticipation throws often enough. I said he said he might stay if he took a pay cut but if he didn't he'd be gone. I said after he was benched that he was almost certainly going to be gone while you went on and on and on about how he was probably going to be our starter in 2018. You fought like a rabid weasel against pretty much all of this.

 

The people on here didn't see it for the full time. The people on both boards know. 

 

You were wrong again and again on what Tyrod is ... and you were as relentless and consistent about it as the beat at a techno club.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Thurman#1