SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Cheating along the way to keep the dynasty .... lets not forget that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthNYfan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Just now, Kirby Jackson said: Belichick plays a big role but those other things are weak. It is how we Patriot haters try to diminish their greatness. They have had run that no other team has ever had. We don’t need to like it but we don’t need to pretend that they won because of the refs or deflating footballs. They win because the execute in the biggest moments. Scary The cheating isn't weak. They were CAUGHT and punished by the NFL on two separate occasions multiple years apart. That's not a weak excuse. The ref bias is clear and obvious in many crucial situations. Does Brady make some big time throws? Yep. Some of the best I've ever seen. My argument is not that he isn't an excellent QB, absolutely HoF. I don't think he's the GOAT based on my stated criteria. Again, it's all opinion and splitting hairs at this point of greatness. I think in the end, as I said earlier, comparing generations/eras is tough due to rule changes. If I made a list, without any particular order, consisting of: Brady Montana Young Favre Elway Kelly Rodgers Marino Manning Rodgers (Not saying thats my top 10, just 10 greats I thought of) Would anybody complain if they had ANY of those QBs locked up in their prime? I don't think so. I think there's a lot of arguments to be made for who the goat is, and it all depends on what you value. Just rings? Performance in big games? Performance over a career? How bad was the rest of the team? What about the coach? There's a lot that can be debated. In the end it's splitting hairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco_92 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Brady has more SB wins than Joe, and instead of not even making it to the Super Bowl 3 other times where Joe fell short, he got to the SB and lost. Going to the Super Bowl and losing is better than not being able to make it, so the 4-0 > 5-3 thing is nonsense. That just means that Joe lost sooner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 19 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said: lol wasn't implying you were a pot head.. I mean it could have been a contact High! And bread crumbs for what? A bold face lie? Come on man! He drops an over the shoulder pass which is a difficult pass catch for anyone and people like "oh he was awful" it wasn't him the D stunk so bad mars could smell them! Ah, I was thinking reefer madness. As for my bread crumbs, I figured reference to garbage time stats when the game went down to the last second really was obvious. Subsequent references to the improbable 2 tds and 2 point conversions last year were obvious as well. Brady is the greatest qb of all time. At 40, he threw for 500+ yards and absent some very rough contact* at the goal line had that ball on the money to score the TD. If he completes the pass, every fan in America who doesn't want to see the pats win (and that's pretty much every fan in America other than a pats fan) knows with certainty that he's going to convert the 2point for OT, and knows with certainty that the pats will win the toss, Brady will complete 3 quick passes to get them in field goal range and win it. I've hated him in the past, hated him for the success he has had against the bills, against the breaks that have gone his way, and have no issues with calling him out on deflategate or anything else. I was glad to see him lose, glad to see him glassy eyed after the game but don't deny his talent. *As for the rough contact, I was glad to see gronkowski go down like a cheap muffin and will never forget the cheap shot he laid on Tre White. To see him flail his arm looking for a the flag that never game was priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuddyDark Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, arcane said: Brady has more SB wins than Joe, and instead of not even making it to the Super Bowl 3 other times where Joe fell short, he got to the SB and lost. Going to the Super Bowl and losing is better than not being able to make it, so the 4-0 > 5-3 thing is nonsense. That just means that Joe lost sooner. But does the era matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bomb Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Who cares about legacy? The NFL is the epitome of what have you done for me lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 This is a very useful thread...now that SDS has increased the 'manage users' limit beyond 16 pages... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Brady to me is GOAT. He didn't lose the game last night; his coach and D did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuddyDark Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Brady to me is GOAT. He didn't lose the game last night; his coach and D did. But his coach and D won other games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 22 minutes ago, joesixpack said: Also agreed. Nauseating. I was thinking about it and if we were to look at the Steelers roster for those years in the ‘70’s and count the number of total different guys it would be about half as many as in the Pats latest run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthNYfan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 12 minutes ago, arcane said: Brady has more SB wins than Joe, and instead of not even making it to the Super Bowl 3 other times where Joe fell short, he got to the SB and lost. Going to the Super Bowl and losing is better than not being able to make it, so the 4-0 > 5-3 thing is nonsense. That just means that Joe lost sooner. This argument rages with Jordan vs LeBron in the NBA as well LeBron is 3-5 in the finals vs 6-0 for Jordan Jordan started his career with 3 straight first round exits, then the next 3 years he lost to the Pistons (second round, then twice in the East conf finals) LeBron has never lost in the first round These are just objective stats, just to go along with your point. I think if Brady was 3-5 instead of 5-3 you could knock him more, like I said before, he'd be my #1 if it wasn't for the cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 You have to take into account the era. Montana played when it was open season on QB's and had to stand in there and take true beatings. Today, you can hit high, cant hit low, cant hit after they throw it. So Brady has had way more bites at the apple because you can be way healthier these days. Having said all that, Brady has played in 8 SB's, like 12 AFC championship games, has a winning percentage way better than Montana or anyone ever. His stats stand out above others across the board. I think you can argue Montana over Brady but for it is also valid (probably more so) to argue Brady over Montana. The 28-3 game last year is totally unprecedented in a SB. 16 minutes ago, T-Bomb said: Who cares about legacy? The NFL is the epitome of what have you done for me lately. yet here we are talking about Montana, what has he done lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 10 hours ago, Fadingpain said: Yes, Brady is the GOAT. He also gets a technical difficulty multiplier Montana does not enjoy, as Montana played at a time when defenses were absolutely primitive by today's standards. Brady has earned his GOAT status. But if Montana had played in this era he'd have likely played 20 mostly healthy years too and the Niners probably win more SB's. Defenses were simpler in his day........which is why the Niners WCO would carve them up........but those defenses were also MUCH more violent.......and that violence was what un-did Montana. It was something of a miracle that he played as long as he did in that environment. Guys like Brady and Rodgers almost certainly have had much shorter careers in those days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWATeam Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Brady has earned his GOAT status. But if Montana had played in this era he'd have likely played 20 mostly healthy years too and the Niners probably win more SB's. Defenses were simpler in his day........which is why the Niners WCO would carve them up........but those defenses were also MUCH more violent.......and that violence was what un-did Montana. It was something of a miracle that he played as long as he did in that environment. Guys like Brady and Rodgers almost certainly have had much shorter careers in those days. Montana benefited greatly from no salary cap. 49ers second stringers were better than most teams starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DriveFor1Outta5 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said: This argument rages with Jordan vs LeBron in the NBA as well LeBron is 3-5 in the finals vs 6-0 for Jordan Jordan started his career with 3 straight first round exits, then the next 3 years he lost to the Pistons (second round, then twice in the East conf finals) LeBron has never lost in the first round These are just objective stats, just to go along with your point. I think if Brady was 3-5 instead of 5-3 you could knock him more, like I said before, he'd be my #1 if it wasn't for the cheating. That gives me an idea. Maybe Brady should just start chasing titles like Lebron. If Brady could find a team with a defense, he might have a couple more titles left in him. Edited February 5, 2018 by DriveFor1Outta5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalobloodfloridahome Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 As much as I despise Brady for keeping the AFC East on lockdown since he became the starter. I cannot find any fault in Brady for losing this Super Bowl. He threw for 500 yards 3 tds and only had one fumble. I don't know what else he could of done in that situation. New England's defense from early in the season showed up and they couldn't even slow down Foles or the running game. Truthfully what was supposed to be a great defense from Philly never showed either. It ended up being one heck of a show and I really enjoyed it. Brady was not why the Patriots lost, yet it will always show that he lost that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthNYfan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 7 minutes ago, DriveFor1Outta5 said: That gives me an idea. Maybe Brady should just start chases titles like Lebron. If Brady could find a team with a defense, he might have a couple more titles left in him. I hear the Lions just hired a great defensive coordinator as their HC Maybe they could trade Stafford to the bills and Brady could go to Detroit and ride that defense 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 53 minutes ago, CuddyDark said: Teams have always won with HOF QBs. Elway won for 15 years too. And with different players, HC's, and during FA. I disagree on the 70's because the only way you could build a super team was to actually build a super team. Pats have never been able to draft WR so they go sign players from other teams, which makes it easier for them to load up players for their HOF QB. You are making my point for me. Elway won for 15 years. He won a lot less than Brady did. If you want stats, Brady has them all. If you want wins, he has that too. It’s really impossible to argue anyone else. I would be curious as to whom you would have ahead of him? We can put them side-by-side and even try to normalize it for the era. Brady winning in the FA era though will be difficult to match. Brady’s receivers in that game yesterday were 2 undrafted free agents. One of them was a lacrosse player in college (also Fitz went to Harvard and Jack Nicklaus is Nick O’Leary’s grandfather). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, SWATeam said: Montana benefited greatly from no salary cap. 49ers second stringers were better than most teams starters. Yeah but to an even greater extent than the Patriots of today the Niners of the 80's were playing chess while the rest of the league was playing checkers. Belichick went a decade between SB wins IMO mostly because of a stubbornness wrt personnel and, frankly not good chops as a drafter. When they lost it was almost always because of bad personnel decisions that weren't related to a lack of cap room. You could argue that the Patriot way has lasted this long because of a consistency by BB wrt what he will tolerate from personnel......it's amazing the blood they have squeezed from so many mediocre talents that would be liabilities for other teams...........but I don't think you can argue that self-inflicted personnel wounds haven't cost them games in the playoffs a number of times. And thankfully so because it's been bad enough as a "rival" as it is. Walsh didn't have stubbornness or personnel evaluation issues on draft day. He was far ahead of his time wrt scheme and also wrt finding star level personnel. If not for the ultra-violence of that era the Niners could have won the SB every year in the 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthNYfan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: You are making my point for me. Elway won for 15 years. He won a lot less than Brady did. If you want stats, Brady has them all. If you want wins, he has that too. It’s really impossible to argue anyone else. I would be curious as to whom you would have ahead of him? We can put them side-by-side and even try to normalize it for the era. Brady winning in the FA era though will be difficult to match. Brady’s receivers in that game yesterday were 2 undrafted free agents. One of them was a lacrosse player in college (also Fitz went to Harvard and Jack Nicklaus is Nick O’Leary’s grandfather). I like how you keep saying "it's impossible to argue" when it's clearly not impossible. -the numbers don't mean much compared to some of the older guys when you adjust for era... Marino is the stat king if you want to go that route -it's a fact that they were caught cheating publicly on 2 occasions. That's a fact. Those are things that I use to refer him being the goat, so no, it's not "impossible" to argue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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