transplantbillsfan Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Holy crap dude! This is awesome! Great work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Yes, I do think Clay should have made the catch but I also believe that there was a missed opportunity to throw the ball earlier to Clay. Listen, I'm by no stretch of the imagination a TT hater or critic, I happen to believe he is a good enough QB to take us to the playoffs with a solid defense and ground game, and I also believe he had a decent to good game. From a 1 to 10 I'd have given him a solid 7.5. But since we are discussing this play, I believe the biggest error was not reading that Clay had one on one coverage vs a LB and that he had an unevaded path to where his break was to be and where the ball should have been. 33 was the only true risk to Clay but he had drifted towards Zay and away from Clay and the center of field early on and by the time TT started setting his sights on Clay, it allowed him to get back into the play forcing TT to not throw the ball out in front to avoid 33. I think that's why the ball was thrown behind to avoid 33. Oh I know Magox, and my questions to you are not about defending TT for me, its me wanting Clay to be held responsible for this tendency to not come through at key moments. I think the disconnect on the read on the play between how you and I see it is that I don't think Clay was the first read. I have no issues with your view on it, just discussing it as I respect your thoughts in general. I have personally grown frustrated with the lack of effort or success by Clay in key moments of games the last couple of seasons. I have high expectations for him based on his contract, athletic ability, and potential and bothers me to see situations where he should have made the play and didn't. I concede that its possible to have targeted Clay a second sooner or possibly delivered the ball in a slightly better spot, but at the same time I have no issue where the ball was because TT got the ball to where Clay could have and should have completed the catch. I for one loved seeing TT make that throw, its what we want to see him do more, fire it in there and be less conservative. But the target needs to do his job too and catch a ball that hit both hands. The ball was through his hands before he was touched so that point is moot Yeah, not sure why people keep bringing up the contact on Clay, none of that happened until after he already whiffed on the catch. If someone wants to question he retains control after the hit, that I can understand, but there was zero contact by any defender on Clay or the Ball before he let it go through his hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watkins90 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 definitely not routine. it would have been routine if TT would have thrown it a second earlier. great point.. yes.. TT did lead him allowing YAC. Hopefully that improves this year as we go. Meh, the ball is in Clay's hands, he needs to catch it. In fact, find me a quarterback who makes very throw perfect? That was more than catchable, and that is about as accurate as a QB really needs to be in the NFL, anything better is icing on the cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Oh I know Magox, and my questions to you are not about defending TT for me, its me wanting Clay to be held responsible for this tendency to not come through at key moments. I think the disconnect on the read on the play between how you and I see it is that I don't think Clay was the first read. I have no issues with your view on it, just discussing it as I respect your thoughts in general. I have personally grown frustrated with the lack of effort or success by Clay in key moments of games the last couple of seasons. I have high expectations for him based on his contract, athletic ability, and potential and bothers me to see situations where he should have made the play and didn't. I concede that its possible to have targeted Clay a second sooner or possibly delivered the ball in a slightly better spot, but at the same time I have no issue where the ball was because TT got the ball to where Clay could have and should have completed the catch. I for one loved seeing TT make that throw, its what we want to see him do more, fire it in there and be less conservative. But the target needs to do his job too and catch a ball that hit both hands. You definitely want Clay making that catch, it's what you would expect out of your high dollar TE. You want him to go up and pluck it out of the air with ease while shrugging off that contested defender, no doubt about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 You definitely want Clay making that catch, it's what you would expect out of your high dollar TE. You want him to go up and pluck it out of the air with ease while shrugging off that contested defender, no doubt about it. And that is literally my entire stance. If Clay's catch radius doesn't include that throw, then he shouldn't be a starting TE in the NFL IMO let alone one of the highest paid at his position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 You definitely want Clay making that catch, it's what you would expect out of your high dollar TE. You want him to go up and pluck it out of the air with ease while shrugging off that contested defender, no doubt about it. ...agree but he gets a mulligan...usually dependable.....bigger concern is TT targeting and hooking up with WR's even if Clay is on the field.....can't get comfortable with the "lock on" syndrome..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Awesome thread as usual glad it continues from last year. Ive never seen so much scrutiny on an incomplete pass before in my life. In the end for me, the question is painfully simple: Should that ball be caught 95% of the time? Yes, it should. If he was open 1 sec prior is irrelevant bc when he got the Ball he was still open. Openness is not an issue. Contact didnt cause the incompletion. Clay's bad hands did. Unless of course someone wants to argue that a ball is only catchable if its directly between the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 ...agree but he gets a mulligan...usually dependable.....bigger concern is TT targeting and hooking up with WR's even if Clay is on the field.....can't get comfortable with the "lock on" syndrome..... I think the biggest thing where he can improve on is the pre snap read. If you get your read right then it helps to compartmentalize what you are looking at. I know this sounds nit picky but on that play there were only 2 possible threats to Clay, the LB that was covering him and #33. He looks out to the left to Zay, he can see that the DB on him is in zone and #33 is drifting that direction, at that point you'd hope that TT would immediately recognize that #33 is taking himself out of the play in the middle of the field and that Clay now has one on one coverage with a LB, who subsequently would be entering into that wide open space of the middle of the field. From there you'd hope he'd look back to Clay as soon as he sees #33 drifting away and find Clay for an easy TD. I know, sounds like nitpicking, but I do believe that if he had a better pre snap read he'd have recognized that. Doesn't matter now, hopefully that's something he'll get better at recognizing. Still, all in all he played a good solid game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I think the biggest thing where he can improve on is the pre snap read. If you get your read right then it helps to compartmentalize what you are looking at. I know this sounds nit picky but on that play there were only 2 possible threats to Clay, the LB that was covering him and #33. He looks out to the left to Zay, he can see that the DB on him is in zone and #33 is drifting that direction, at that point you'd hope that TT would immediately recognize that #33 is taking himself out of the play in the middle of the field and that Clay now has one on one coverage with a LB, who subsequently would be entering into that wide open space of the middle of the field. From there you'd hope he'd look back to Clay as soon as he sees #33 drifting away and find Clay for an easy TD. I know, sounds like nitpicking, but I do believe that if he had a better pre snap read he'd have recognized that. Doesn't matter now, hopefully that's something he'll get better at recognizing. Still, all in all he played a good solid game. ....nitpicking?...not a chance.....much appreciated spot on and trained eye assessment IMO....nicely done.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bocephuz Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 ....nitpicking?...not a chance.....much appreciated spot on and trained eye assessment IMO....nicely done.... It's the difference between good and great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 How many people are "some"? Because you can get some people on this board to agree on just about any insane thing you can dream up. Yes some wanted to trade our starting DE for QB John Skelton! Vlad is certainly bad but I do remember Astro's reports mentioning Miller multiple times in the last one out list and the dogging it list. I hope Groy is being looked at again as guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KellyToughII Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 These have become my favorite postgame posts. Thanks for the work you put into them. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 ...agree but he gets a mulligan...usually dependable.....bigger concern is TT targeting and hooking up with WR's even if Clay is on the field.....can't get comfortable with the "lock on" syndrome..... Why do you believe he gets a mulligan? What have you seen that leads you to believe he is usually dependable? His drop percentage wasn't awful last year at 3.5%, but it's not Gronk/Pitta/Rudolph quality. It's also subjective, but I don't think "drops" tell the whole story for Clay. I saw too many plays last year that I thought he "took off" and didn't make maximal effort to come back or stretch out or go high - basically anything that would sacrifice himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 It's the difference between good and great ...IF you have the perseverance to wade through all of the PG-13 Yipping "experts" here (was same on BBMB), you come across someone in the vein of the OP, highly knowledgeable, football astute and one who provides a critical OBJECTIVE analysis.....damn, he's good...makes "wading" worthwhile IMO........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reks Ryan Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Good analysis. Well done. Was stuck in Hurricane zone on Sunday and was unable to see full game, so I appreciate the recap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 The ball was through his hands before he was touched so that point is moot former CB I knew used to call that "hearing footsteps" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 Josh Allen Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Thank you for doing this post. This takes a lot of time to put this together. That's why I feel 2 bills drive is the best forum in Pro football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty McFly Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 thanks.. they take a while to create. .glad some people find them useful These are awesome. Been looking forward to this, this season, nice work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 former CB I knew used to call that "hearing footsteps" I'm sure he heard them. He had one trailing him and 2 more in the area. I think Clay should have caught the ball, but at the same time its not a ball I would expect him to always catch. Taylor could have placed it a little better as well. At the end of the day, its a play that should have happened but didn't for various reasons and shouldn't really be picked to death. Not even Tom Brady and Gronk hook up 100% of the time like that but some people expect Taylor/Clay to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronxbomber21 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Good point.yeah that's what it looks like to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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