Article: "If the Bills Aren't Tanking, What Are They Doing?&#3

[Shaw66]

*HOMER ALERT*

 

There is not one starting position change that I dont like better than 2016:

 

Matthews over Watkins

Jones over Woods

Holmes over Hunter/Goodwin

White over Gilmore

Gaines over Darby

Hyde over Williams

Poyer over Graham/Rambo

Tolbert/Dimarco over Felton

Hauskas over Carpenter

 

And 43 personnel is much better than 34 with Kyle/Darius in the middle, Hughes/Lawson on the edge and Brown as a true MLB and Lorenzo outside.

 

And Oline and Dline have continuity with all starters returning.

 

Oh and we got a bunch of draft picks.

 

WIN NOW AND WIN LATER Y'ALL.

A few of those are questionable, but you actually make good points. The starting talent is probably at least equal overall, the personnel is better suited to the 4 3, and there's probably better coaching staff in place.

[BillsFan4]

Seriously??? "Show them the way" to what? Where to buy tickets for playoff games? Unless they played for other teams that went to the playoffs, that's the only way any of the Bills veterans will ever attend one.

Show them the way to be a professional athlete. You need some good veteran players in the dressing room that the younger guys will actually listen to and follow their example.

 

The NFL is a whole different world/animal compared to college. It's a league filled with the best football players in the entire world. Sometimes winning or losing a game comes down to a handful of plays or having just a slight edge over your competition. And sometimes the difference between a guy having a good good or great career comes down to the way they practice and prepare.

 

There are so many things that good veteran players can show the younger guys. Like showing them the right way to practice on a daily basis, how to properly prepare for a game, how to handle the media, how to handle the pressure during games and in crucial moments, what they're seeing on the field during games, how to carry themselves on and off the field, the right way to work out (setting the right example in the gym etc), how to study film properly (think about what a good veteran player could add to a meeting room when reviewing film, all the things they see that a rookie doesn't).

 

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are tons more things a good veteran player can teach a younger guy. I'm sure they know all sorts of tips and tricks of the trade.

 

IMO, you need that veteran leadership and guidance on the field and in the locker room. You need guys like that to bring the younger guys along right (especially the rookies and guys in their first few years). I would think it has to be a lot harder for younger guys to find their way in the NFL with a locker room void of good veteran players.

[Magox]

 

You mean Wayne?

 

Oh yeah, that's right.......you share his opinion.

 

It's just another form of a shout-down.

 

If you think a poster never has a different take and you don't like the takes, ignore them or put the poster on ignore so you can't see their posts........complaining about things that you WISH could be changed at OBD is fair game on TSW.........complaining about things you CAN change is just bitchin for bitchass sake......just DO IT.

I don't put people on ignore. Not how I roll.

There is a difference between posting well-thought critiques and incessant mindless blather and it ain't even a fine line.

And who said it's complaining? Mockery is my tool of choice

[SoTier]

 

You honestly think these guys are the reason the Bills haven't been successful over the years? Kyle Williams is the one holding the franchise back?

 

 

You made a dumb statement. I responded in kind.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

You made a dumb statement. I responded in kind.

Darn it .... Now I'm gonna look at this again for another hour

[Gordio]

 

You'd still have 53 players on the roster who are thinking, "What the hell am I doing here?" Each player who is naturally competitive and enjoys the pursuit of winning would certainly care.

 

I really doubt the Jets locker room is a great place to be right now and a breeding ground of a championship attitude.

 

And if you really believe that "it doesn't matter what the fans think" then I'm afraid you haven't a clue.

 

What they are doing makes no sense. You want to rebuild fine? You don't cast away young talented players for draft picks to do so. That is not the way to do it. Trading Watkins was indefensible & tells me all I need to know about Beane & Mcd & that is they are in way over their heads.

[oldmanfan]

 

What they are doing makes no sense. You want to rebuild fine? You don't cast away young talented players for draft picks to do so. That is not the way to do it. Trading Watkins was indefensible & tells me all I need to know about Beane & Mcd & that is they are in way over their heads.

Right. These guys have been in the league for years but you know more. Right.

 

Look, I didn't like the Sammy trade either. But all you are doing here is repeating the same old stuff that has been debunked not only on this board but in a number of different football sites. With Sammy it was concern over injury and salary, but I still didn't like it. Agree with you there. But if his injuries crop up again they are going to look like geniuses. Looking at who else was "cast away", some were free agents that they tried to negotiate with (particularly Gilmore) but he chose to shop the FA market. And he got a really big deal, more than they felt appropriate. Same with Woods.

 

As far as trades and releases, what you and many others refuse to acknowledge are that the guys they lost may not be as talented as you think, and that they actually did get young guys back. Take Darby. Who did they get back? a starting WR. Even with Sammy they got back a starting CB. Ragland was a 3rd string LB, Seymour a 5th or 6th CB, and J will (although puzzling to me) cleared waivers and is a practice squad player. So perhaps you need to step back a bit and really assess whether the young talent they lot is really as talented as you thought.

[Bills Pimpin']

A few of those are questionable, but you actually make good points. The starting talent is probably at least equal overall, the personnel is better suited to the 4 3, and there's probably better coaching staff in place.

Yea, I didn't mention the coaching which, on paper, is significantly more successful at both coordinator positions with Rico and Frazier not to mention Waufle and some of the other position coaches. Obviously the Head coaching position is not experienced but I think its safe to say he will be as good as Sexy Rexy who was deplorable.

 

I also didn't mention special teams which McD has not only preached about but also acted upon improving the unit talent both in the back end of the 2016 draft as well as many personnel moves throughout the preseason. I would expect a vast improvement over the 24th ranked Bills special teams last year.

[Big Gun]

Will dennison design a system that helps tyrod be more successful? To lead the league in rushing again? If yes the offense will be very good. If no the offense will look terrible and it's very possible he is scapegoated because the owners may not want to trust the new rookie qb with a guy who can't design a system around a qbs strengths. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tyrod is perfect for them, he's not going to do very well in Dennisons system and that is exactly what they want. Peterman is way better for their offense and they know it so I don't expect Peterman to see the field at all this year because they really aren't interested in winning this year and Peterman may win just enough games which they don't want. Game on next year with Peterman. IMO!

 

The Hidden Tank

Edited September 7, 2017 by old school

[Wayne Arnold]

 

What they are doing makes no sense. You want to rebuild fine? You don't cast away young talented players for draft picks to do so. That is not the way to do it. Trading Watkins was indefensible & tells me all I need to know about Beane & Mcd & that is they are in way over their heads.

 

Actually that's exactly how to do it.

[Gordio]

Right. These guys have been in the league for years but you know more. Right.

 

Look, I didn't like the Sammy trade either. But all you are doing here is repeating the same old stuff that has been debunked not only on this board but in a number of different football sites. With Sammy it was concern over injury and salary, but I still didn't like it. Agree with you there. But if his injuries crop up again they are going to look like geniuses. Looking at who else was "cast away", some were free agents that they tried to negotiate with (particularly Gilmore) but he chose to shop the FA market. And he got a really big deal, more than they felt appropriate. Same with Woods.

 

As far as trades and releases, what you and many others refuse to acknowledge are that the guys they lost may not be as talented as you think, and that they actually did get young guys back. Take Darby. Who did they get back? a starting WR. Even with Sammy they got back a starting CB. Ragland was a 3rd string LB, Seymour a 5th or 6th CB, and J will (although puzzling to me) cleared waivers and is a practice squad player. So perhaps you need to step back a bit and really assess whether the young talent they lot is really as talented as you thought.

 

 

These guys have not proven anything in the league yet. They are not responsible for this 17 year playoff draught, but in the same respect, I am not giving them the benefit of the doubt either. They need to prove it to me. But if you look at what happened this offseason it reminds me of the same old cycle. They let Gilmore & Woods walk & replace them with high draft picks in White & Jones. Where have we seen this before? This has been going on for 17 years now & it is why we never get better. Other teams use the draft to add pieces, we use the draft to replace pieces with less expensive options.

 

Actually that's exactly how to do it.

 

 

Why get rid of the young talent that are still on their first contacts. That is not how you rebuild a team. Get a clue. Watkins & Darby were hardly the problems.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Gordio

[Wayne Arnold]

Why get rid of the young talent that are still on their first contacts. That is not how you rebuild a team. Get a clue. Watkins & Darby were hardly the problems.

 

You get more value by trading "talented guys on their first contracts". That's how we got a 2nd and 3rd rounder in addition to a new starting wide receiver.

 

It was a no-brainer to trade Darby for what we were offered. Rex said it best recently: "You're playing in a defense and you got a corner without any deep ball skills, that's one reason probably Ron Darby's not there. It's hard, in that type of system you want a guy with some ball skills and Darby's a 'man-under' type of corner, he doesn't necessarily have the ball skills down the field, so I can see that move happening."

 

Sammy was more difficult, you can tell McDermott wasn't crazy about it but they made the decision that they weren't going to spend what it would have taken to retain Sammy beyond 2017 so why not get what you can for him?

[oldmanfan]

 

 

These guys have not proven anything in the league yet. They are not responsible for this 17 year playoff draught, but in the same respect, I am not giving them the benefit of the doubt either. They need to prove it to me. But if you look at what happened this offseason it reminds me of the same old cycle. They let Gilmore & Woods walk & replace them with high draft picks in White & Jones. Where have we seen this before? This has been going on for 17 years now & it is why we never get better. Other teams use the draft to add pieces, we use the draft to replace pieces with less expensive options.

 

 

Why get rid of the young talent that are still on their first contacts. That is not how you rebuild a team. Get a clue. Watkins & Darby were hardly the problems.

Actually other teams do this all the time. It is the nature of free agency. The Packers for example had to replace Hyde this year, because he signed with us. You are correct in saying they have not proven anything in the league yet. But the opposite side of that coin is they haven't disproven anything either. It is the nature of some Bills fans to just assume the negative about something, which is I guess understandable given the 17 year drought.

 

You say they let Gilmore and Woods walk in such a negative sense. What they did (and each of these was done before Beane by the way) is they tried to negotiate with one (Gilmore) and did not with the other (Woods). In the former case he wanted to test the FA market, did so, and bot an insane deal from the Pats. So given that and knowing he may not fit the scheme they said fine (McD did in that case). with Woods even before the new regime they new he'd get offered a ton more in free agency than they thought he was worth. So he left, and now if kind of wedged behind Sammy and a rookie and Austin on the Rams; the Rams are paying big bucks for a #3/4 WR. Which isn't terribly smart.

 

NO question the new guys have to show their plan works. It will be based on the draft and they completely gutted the scouting department and have brought in some well regarde front office folks to go with Beane. The HC and GM are completely in synch short term and long term. They want to be competitive this year (hence keeping some vets that give them that chance) while dealing some guys for other young guys plus some picks.

 

Will it work? I don't know. No one does right now. But it seems to me these guys have been in the league a long time, they have seen a lot and they have a sense of what approach yields long term success, and they are going to put that kind of system in place. They have to then get the right players in the draft, and then coach them up well. We'll see if the GM and HC are equal to those tasks. I would say we need to quit tarnishing them with the brush of past Bills front offices and coaches and let them stand on their own merit.

[quinnearlysghost88]

 

 

These guys have not proven anything in the league yet. They are not responsible for this 17 year playoff draught, but in the same respect, I am not giving them the benefit of the doubt either. They need to prove it to me. But if you look at what happened this offseason it reminds me of the same old cycle. They let Gilmore & Woods walk & replace them with high draft picks in White & Jones. Where have we seen this before? This has been going on for 17 years now & it is why we never get better. Other teams use the draft to add pieces, we use the draft to replace pieces with less expensive options.

 

 

Why get rid of the young talent that are still on their first contacts. That is not how you rebuild a team. Get a clue. Watkins & Darby were hardly the problems.

 

You're going to see a coincidence in our rebuilding coinciding with most likely the greatest QB ever retiring and leaving our division in the next few years. That will really help with the division being up for grabs and not consistently won by a team with 13+ wins ever year. Every other division in football over the past 15 years has gone through ebbs and flows and changes of dominance, except for ours. Even Green Bay, a considerably dominate team put up an 8-7-1 record and a bunch of 10 win seasons. Do you know how hard it is to compete against: 14-2, 12-4, 12-4, 12-4, 12-4, 13-3, 14-2, 10-6, 11-5, 16-0, 12-4, 10-6, 14-2, 14-2. There's NO ROOM FOR ERROR. Things will change once he's gone. Not just for us, but for everyone in the AFC.

[Bills Pimpin']

 

Do you know how hard it is to compete against: 14-2, 12-4, 12-4, 12-4, 12-4, 13-3, 14-2, 10-6, 11-5, 16-0, 12-4, 10-6, 14-2, 14-2.

Thats amazing to see on paper....

[row_33]

I don't care about your biased talent views, the team is in dire fundamental problemistics.

 

I hope the team can:

 

1) Put 11 men on the field, no more and no less for 4 out of 5 plays

 

2) Remember a kickoff is a live ball that is recoverable by any member of the opposition, especially when you let it roll into the end zone

 

3) A coaching staff that has a clue about the replay system that has been around for a long time

4) Not jump offside routinely

 

5) WRs realize standing out of bounds isn't a wise move, even if the throw is completed to you

6) Make sure the players subbing out on the other team actually leave the field and aren't faking it by lining up on the sideline for an easy 20 yard completion

 

Little stuff like that.

[Cash]

Publicly traded ones do. I doubt the Bills would make theirs public. We'll see how these guys do. I do think they have a very definitive idea how a team should be built and now they get to see if they're right.

 

Honest question: do you think you know what that definitive idea is? If so, what is it?

 

Not me; Trust The Process.

 

What is the process?

 

Wayne often has good things to say, and this is no exception. (I disagree some about first-round QBs - yes, they're a crap shoot, but there's no denying that first round is where you have to look for QBs. After that, getting a QB is a total shot in the dark.)

 

Otherwise he's right. The notion that no first-year coach can afford to tank is a good one. That's a really important point.

 

I think Beane and McD have a philosophy that they feel strongly about. It has several points, and I don't know all of them, but I know some.

 

One is that they are strong believers that the most important players on the team are the ones who play closest to the ball - offensive and defensive line and quarterback. How can you tell? Look at the major moves: Watkins gone for a player and pick before he hit free agency, because they won't pay a wideout what Watkins will get. Gilmore gone before that, same reason. Darby gone, because he was going to be next. Woods contract extended. Safeties play far from the ball; they acquired good byt not great guys there, because they don't wan to spend at that position. Look at the team - offensive line and defensive line in tact, starting QB is the best they could do this year.

 

A second is that they want to build through the draft. They've said that over and over. Why? Because you can get cheap talent in the draft.

 

A third is that system, and guys who commit to the system, is more important than talent. Trust the process. Not that talent doesn't matter, but if the guy is fully bought into the system, Beane and McD won't keep him around. There were little rumors, unsubstantiated, about each of Watkins, Gilmore and Darby, that they weren't team players. Tolbert, Webb, Hyde and several others were brought in because of their known commitment to process.

 

McD believes he can win now, because he believes in process over talent. He believes he can win the future, because Beane won't break the bank on guys who play away from the ball, like Watkins, Darby and Gilmore and because Beane is collecting a lot of draft picks.

 

BIlls might not win a lot this season, but they aren't tanking. If McD is going to be a great head coach, he might even win a lot this season. Probably not, but it's possible. If he's going to be great, he should win next season, because he will have a team full of guys who buy into what he's doing.

 

Great post! This is by far the most plausible explanation I've seen for what the Bills' plan actually is. Hopefully it works out, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[oldmanfan]

 

Honest question: do you think you know what that definitive idea is? If so, what is it?

 

 

What is the process?

 

 

Great post! This is by far the most plausible explanation I've seen for what the Bills' plan actually is. Hopefully it works out, but I'll believe it when I see it.

There's a good article today on si.com that explains what they are all about.

[Gugny]

There's a good article today on si.com that explains what they are all about.

 

Linky?

[oldmanfan]

 

Linky?

There's a thread titled SI article that was just started a a bit ago. That has it. Briefly, I think McD wants a mindset, from the time you get out of your car to the time you leave for home, whether it be practice, film study, game day. I think Shaw captured it pretty well above.