Go on record regarding the trades

[26CornerBlitz]

This is Greg Gabriel's assessment of Sammy. WTH has he been looking at? Possession WRs don't have 16.1 YPC career averages.

 

http://www.profootballweekly.com/lists/2017/08/12/b53daa27c7ee4fa2aabf5387002ee51b/index.xml?page=2

 

I have read reports that this trade gives the Rams a legitimate number one receiver. That is ludicrous, as Watkins in not and never will be a number one. He is a two at best. Why? While his production has been good, it hasn’t been great. He had 65 receptions, a 15.1-yard average and 6 touchdowns as a rookie and followed that up with 60 receptions for a 17.5-yard average and 9 touchdowns in 2015. He missed time in 2015 as well as 2016. Last year he only played in eight games and finished the year with 28 catches for 428 yards and two touchdowns.

 

Watkins ran 4.43 in the 40 at the Combine the year he came out but has never played to that speed as a pro. He plays more like a 4.58 possession receiver than a speed guy. He also looks heavy and doesn’t have the explosive quickness that you would expect.

 

The Buffalo coaches and front office saw this both on tape and in person and decided not to pick up the fifth-year option on his original rookie contract. This is telling. Buffalo decided to move on from the player, as they were not going to re-sign him after the 2017 season. To get a starting corner and a second-round pick that could be a very high-second round selection is a great move.

[Kirby Jackson]

Exactly its not sustainable just as I stated quite a bit. Either the player gets cut, traded, accepts a lesser contract, or released. Going out of your way to pay something to a player that will cause your team to be less of a winner because you cant afford other players isnt a very smart thing to do. For example see the saints.

The Saints are a great example. They kept loading up to try to take a last run with Brees. They ended up 7-9. The next year they took like $40m of dead money and ended up 7-9. Then they had a bunch of cap space and they are right back where they were. You kick the can down the road until you are no longer a threat, eat the money for a year and start fresh. The cap isn't hindering anything anymore.

[Bill_with_it]

The Saints are a great example. They kept loading up to try to take a last run with Brees. They ended up 7-9. The next year they took like $40m of dead money and ended up 7-9. Then they had a bunch of cap space and they are right back where they were. You kick the can down the road until you are no longer a threat, eat the money for a year and start fresh. The cap isn't hindering anything anymore.

Complete bs, we couldnt afford TD mike lol. The cap is real, the constraintsnit places on teams is real, its there to create parity and do the exact opposite you are claiming it affords teams to do. Pay market value to all your stars. You simply cant do that. The teams that win the superbowls understand that. Edited August 13, 2017 by Bill_with_it

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

....this is probably one of the top trade assessments I have read, courtesy of Howard W. Campbell Jr as posted on billievers.com MB............

 

I'm (Howard) just joining this discussion so forgive me if this has already been said, but this is how I see it.

Sammy Watkins was a huge problem for Buffalo. The best case scenario with Watkins would have been him playing a full healthy year and finally becoming what people thought he'd be. That would be a huge problem after the season though. His agent would want a huge contract for a guy who's played one healthy year. If Watkins injures himself again some other team in the offseason would be willing to pay him more than the Bills would want to and more than he deserves, IMO.

So the Bills shipped that problem off, along with a sixth round pick, for a CB that plays zone coverage and a second round pick. Frazier will be playing zone coverage and the Bills can use Gaines. It seemed likely, to me, that the Bills would lose Watkins and have nothing to show for it. Now they have a corner that fits the system and another second round pick.

Darby plays best in a man coverage system. So it appeared that he's not going to be as much help in Frazier's system as he was in Rex's system. The Bills picked up a receiver that's taller than Watkins and has a much better health record, along with a third round pick.

Bottom line is that the Bills walk away from a huge problem and a CB more suited for zone play. In return they get a lesser receiver than Watkins, when both are healthy, but taller and more durable along with another third round pick. The reason for trading Darby may be more than his ability to adapt to a zone scheme. He might not fit what the new coaching staff is looking for mentally in a player. It seems that McDermott wants tough guys with a certain mindset on his team. I think KW is a guy McDermott probably loves. I see KW as the perfect example of what McDermott wants from his players.

The best part of these deals come in the 2018 draft. The Bills will have six picks in the first three rounds. They can get another third rounder as a compensatory pick if they cut three of these guys: DiMarco, Vladimir Ducasse, Andre Holmes and Steven Hauschka.

That could potentially give them 7 picks in the first 100 of the 2018 draft.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...s-ronald-darby

...That gives the Bills what essentially amounts to three first-round picks in the 2018 draft, given that they'll have their own pick and Kansas City's selection from the Patrick Mahomes II trade. They can add a third-round compensatory pick for Stephon Gilmore if they cut three players from the group of DiMarco, Vladimir Ducasse, Andre Holmes and Steven Hauschka before Week 10, a move I would strongly encourage...

I love these trades and I don't see it as tanking.

Edited August 13, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[HappyDays]

For those that like the trade, flip it and think about how you would feel. Lets say we have the receivers we have now. The Rams are the ones who drafted Sammy. You wake up to find we traded a second round pick and acquired Watkins. Are you pissed or happy?

If my QB was Jared Goff I would be pissed. Trading a high 2nd round pick in a QB heavy draft, for a receiver in a contract year with an injury history. That's pretty much indefensible if you ask me. It's a Whaley-lite move. Say what you want about the trade from the Bills side, I think it is far worse objectively from the Rams side.

[Coach Tuesday]

....this is probably one of the top trade assessments I have read, courtesy of Howard W. Campbell Jr as posted on billievers.com MB............

 

I'm (Howard) just joining this discussion so forgive me if this has already been said, but this is how I see it.

 

Sammy Watkins was a huge problem for Buffalo. The best case scenario with Watkins would have been him playing a full healthy year and finally becoming what people thought he'd be. That would be a huge problem after the season though. His agent would want a huge contract for a guy who's played one healthy year. If Watkins injures himself again some other team in the offseason would be willing to pay him more than the Bills would want to and more than he deserves, IMO.

 

So the Bills shipped that problem off, along with a sixth round pick, for a CB that plays zone coverage and a second round pick. Frazier will be playing zone coverage and the Bills can use Gaines. It seemed likely, to me, that the Bills would lose Watkins and have nothing to show for it. Now they have a corner that fits the system and another second round pick.

 

Darby plays best in a man coverage system. So it appeared that he's not going to be as much help in Frazier's system as he was in Rex's system. The Bills picked up a receiver that's taller than Watkins and has a much better health record, along with a third round pick.

 

Bottom line is that the Bills walk away from a huge problem and a CB more suited for zone play. In return they get a lesser receiver than Watkins, when both are healthy, but taller and more durable along with another third round pick. The reason for trading Darby may be more than his ability to adapt to a zone scheme. He might not fit what the new coaching staff is looking for mentally in a player. It seems that McDermott wants tough guys with a certain mindset on his team. I think KW is a guy McDermott probably loves. I see KW as the perfect example of what McDermott wants from his players.

 

The best part of these deals come in the 2018 draft. The Bills will have six picks in the first three rounds. They can get another third rounder as a compensatory pick if they cut three of these guys: DiMarco, Vladimir Ducasse, Andre Holmes and Steven Hauschka.

That could potentially give them 7 picks in the first 100 of the 2018 draft.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...s-ronald-darby

 

...That gives the Bills what essentially amounts to three first-round picks in the 2018 draft, given that they'll have their own pick and Kansas City's selection from the Patrick Mahomes II trade. They can add a third-round compensatory pick for Stephon Gilmore if they cut three players from the group of DiMarco, Vladimir Ducasse, Andre Holmes and Steven Hauschka before Week 10, a move I would strongly encourage...

 

I love these trades and I don't see it as tanking.

It was a "huge problem" of the Bills' own making and there were better ways to solve it.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

If my QB was Jared Goff I would be pissed. Trading a high 2nd round pick in a QB heavy draft, for a receiver in a contract year with an injury history. That's pretty much indefensible if you ask me. It's a Whaley-lite move. Say what you want about the trade from the Bills side, I think it is far worse objectively from the Rams side.

 

...at the same time, if and a BIG IF Sammy stays healthy, the "Two W's", a/k/a Watkins and Woods could be an interesting tandem working the field to give the young QB's some options.. Austin has wheels as well.....and IF Sammy stays healthy, he knows what they shelled out for Woods and he would be in line for a BIGGER payday or the tag IMO.....

[26CornerBlitz]

....this is probably one of the top trade assessments I have read, courtesy of Howard W. Campbell Jr as posted on billievers.com MB............

 

I'm (Howard) just joining this discussion so forgive me if this has already been said, but this is how I see it.

 

Sammy Watkins was a huge problem for Buffalo. The best case scenario with Watkins would have been him playing a full healthy year and finally becoming what people thought he'd be. That would be a huge problem after the season though. His agent would want a huge contract for a guy who's played one healthy year. If Watkins injures himself again some other team in the offseason would be willing to pay him more than the Bills would want to and more than he deserves, IMO.

 

So the Bills shipped that problem off, along with a sixth round pick, for a CB that plays zone coverage and a second round pick. Frazier will be playing zone coverage and the Bills can use Gaines. It seemed likely, to me, that the Bills would lose Watkins and have nothing to show for it. Now they have a corner that fits the system and another second round pick.

 

Darby plays best in a man coverage system. So it appeared that he's not going to be as much help in Frazier's system as he was in Rex's system. The Bills picked up a receiver that's taller than Watkins and has a much better health record, along with a third round pick.

 

Bottom line is that the Bills walk away from a huge problem and a CB more suited for zone play. In return they get a lesser receiver than Watkins, when both are healthy, but taller and more durable along with another third round pick. The reason for trading Darby may be more than his ability to adapt to a zone scheme. He might not fit what the new coaching staff is looking for mentally in a player. It seems that McDermott wants tough guys with a certain mindset on his team. I think KW is a guy McDermott probably loves. I see KW as the perfect example of what McDermott wants from his players.

 

The best part of these deals come in the 2018 draft. The Bills will have six picks in the first three rounds. They can get another third rounder as a compensatory pick if they cut three of these guys: DiMarco, Vladimir Ducasse, Andre Holmes and Steven Hauschka.

That could potentially give them 7 picks in the first 100 of the 2018 draft.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...s-ronald-darby

 

...That gives the Bills what essentially amounts to three first-round picks in the 2018 draft, given that they'll have their own pick and Kansas City's selection from the Patrick Mahomes II trade. They can add a third-round compensatory pick for Stephon Gilmore if they cut three players from the group of DiMarco, Vladimir Ducasse, Andre Holmes and Steven Hauschka before Week 10, a move I would strongly encourage...

 

I love these trades and I don't see it as tanking.

 

The statement on Watkins is pretty weak IMO given his production in the '14 and '15 seasons and his recovery from the foot injury. Imagine if the Falcons had taken the same attitude towards Julio Jones with his injury history.

[Magox]

It was a "huge problem" of the Bills' own making and there were better ways to solve it.

I'm not sure if you are pretending to not acknowledge Watkins history of injuries and not superstar WR production or if you somehow know somerhing that we dont in that Watkins will indeed live up to his potential

[Reed83HOF]

Some fans may feel that way.

 

Peters was a stud LT and I really hated seeing him leave, that was a front office BLUNDER that could've been avoided.

 

Sammy has proved that he has potential to be great, and that's about it. I'm more upset right now about burning (2) #1's & a #4 for him, another front office BLUNDER.

 

Trading him now and getting some value for him is not a blunder IMO, it's just part of cleaning up the previous admin's mess.

 

I was shocked and upset with the Sammy trade - 24 yrs old and a lot of potential - good player to build around. Now that the shock has worn off a bit, I hope we sell some of the older vets as well. Honestly I would have started selling the older guys before Darby and Sammy, but it is what it is. I am really okay with bottoming out for a year or 2 to clean everything up...

[Kirby Jackson]

Complete bs, we couldnt afford TD mike lol. The cap is real, the constraintsnit places on teams is real, its there to create parity and do the exact opposite you are claiming it affords teams to do. Pay market value to all your stars. You simply cant do that. The teams that win the superbowls understand that.

Tell me one guy since Pat Williams that we were forced to let go (not elected to)? I will argue this point until I am blue in the face. The Bills went through this offseason with Glenn and Dareus restructures sitting in their pockets. They could have signed anyone that they wanted without any issue. Edited August 13, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[Reed83HOF]

Tell me one guy since Pat Williams that we were forced to let go (not elected to)? I will argue this point until I am blue in the face. The Bills went through this offseason with Glenn and Dareus restructured sitting in their pockets. They could have signed anyone that they wanted without any issue.

 

^^This is true.

[Coach Tuesday]

Tell me one guy since Pat Williams that we were forced to let go (not elected to)? I will argue this point until I am blue in the face. The Bills went through this offseason with Glenn and Dareus restructures sitting in their pockets. They could have signed anyone that they wanted without any issue.

They were not forced to let go of Big Pat. Donahoe got an idea in his head that he could find a replacement.

[disco]

If my QB was Jared Goff I would be pissed. Trading a high 2nd round pick in a QB heavy draft, for a receiver in a contract year with an injury history. That's pretty much indefensible if you ask me. It's a Whaley-lite move. Say what you want about the trade from the Bills side, I think it is far worse objectively from the Rams side.

Man I just don't see it that way at all. The Rams spent an insane amount of draft capital for Goff. Two first, two seconds, two thirds. They've got Kupp, Woods, and Austin as the starting 3. Not exactly the strongest trio. You took a big risk bringing in 30 year old HC who is supposed to be some offensive guru. You add the highest ceiling WR this year for a 2nd round pick. I get it. And yes, it is Whaley-light. But WAY light. We did it to find out about EJ, a middle of the first round guy - Rams are doing it for a guy they mortgaged the future on. If I'm the Rams, I'm doing absolutely everything to figure out if Goff is the guy.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Another fun fact of those who are sure this plummets the team to the bottom of the NFL. Bill record Since 2014:

 

With Watkins---- 18W-19L

Without----------- 6W-5L

[Boatdrinks]

Tell me one guy since Pat Williams that we were forced to let go (not elected to)? I will argue this point until I am blue in the face. The Bills went through this offseason with Glenn and Dareus restructures sitting in their pockets. They could have signed anyone that they wanted without any issue.

Exactly. The cap isn't 80 mil anymore, for those not paying attention. And save the talk about SB winning teams. They generally have those cap issues you know, AFTER they actually win a SB and everyone wants to get paid.

[Kirby Jackson]

They were not forced to let go of Big Pat. Donahoe got an idea in his head that he could find a replacement.

Wasn't it Williams, Winfield and Schobel and they basically had to pick one (or was it Fletcher)? At any rate that period was the last time that the Bills had actual cap trouble. No teams have it anymore. They've all learned how to manipulate the cap. They structure contracts on the front end to allow the necessary flexibility on the back end. With the cap always rising a deal signed 2 years ago ends up being value.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

I stopped reading after it said Sammy Watkins was a huge problem.

 

...now that is a REAL shocker......BUT...HUGE is a bit over the top IMO.....as is "problem".....it was more of a conundrum relative to his health prognosis, declining the 5th year, how Sammy took it, and as to whether the gang in charge saw him walking as a UFA with nothing in return.....maybe Sammy soured on OBD about passing on the 5th year....kid has landed elsewhere and I hope he stays healthy and cashes....NOBODY said this is an EXACT science....BTW, SW and Woods could be a formidable duo for Goff to work with......

Edited August 13, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Boatdrinks]

Another fun fact of those who are sure this plummets the team to the bottom of the NFL. Bill record Since 2014:

With Watkins---- 18W-19L

Without----------- 6W-5L

This move sucks for the future, not the past. The hope is actually that the team acquires a real QB, has better coaching , and Tom Brady retires. A Watkins ( healthy of course) would be a big piece of any turnaround. Why set the bar low based on the team's previous suckitude?

[HappyDays]

Man I just don't see it that way at all. The Rams spent an insane amount of draft capital for Goff. Two first, two seconds, two thirds. They've got Kupp, Woods, and Austin as the starting 3. Not exactly the strongest trio. You took a big risk bringing in 30 year old HC who is supposed to be some offensive guru. You add the highest ceiling WR this year for a 2nd round pick. I get it. And yes, it is Whaley-light. But WAY light. We did it to find out about EJ, a middle of the first round guy - Rams are doing it for a guy they mortgaged the future on. If I'm the Rams, I'm doing absolutely everything to figure out if Goff is the guy.

This is the sunk cost fallacy, and it's part of the reason Whaley ended up getting fired. I respect the view, I am sure the Rams staff still believes in Goff - they pretty much have to. But a truly rational and objective third party would look at Goff's awful play last year and conclude the Rams should start thinking about moving on. They need to think about what happens if Goff blows this year, and what they will need to replace him in 2018. A high 2nd rounder is tremendous lost value for them but I am sure the Rams think they will be good so they don't see it that way. No guarantee Sammy signs long-term which would make this a historically bad trade.