JohnBonhamRocks Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 I'm in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Attempts at insults are a common resort for people who cannot rely on facts. It happens more than it should on TBD. I hope your okay. Anyone want to talk football? Specifically the Buffalo Bills running back depth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Attempts at insults are a common resort for people who cannot rely on facts. It happens more than it should on TBD. I hope your okay. Anyone want to talk football? Specifically the Buffalo Bills running back depth yeah, you have us on the facts on how versatile tolbert will be, based on a quote from his coach in 2014. I was just trying to have a little fun here, sorry if you were offended. But in keeping with the facts, after Rivera said how valuable he would be, he ran for a whopping 2.1 ypc and 0 TD's, along with 0 TD's as a receiver out of the backfield, didn't fare much better the following 2 seasons. Please enjoy your tenure as president of the mike tolbert fan club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 The agent's clearly going to leverage it. He also knows he makes more on the open market - so he walks in a year. Players only get 1 shot at a 2nd deal after their rookie deal. They want to maximize that pay day. So if he stayed at 2.6, and walked next year, then he factors into our comp pick formula for 2019. We got a 5th round pick in 2017 for losing him this year, instead of... probably a 5th round pick in 2019. For better or worse, Jonathan Williams is the guy with Tolbert as the likely insurance. It's not ideal but its cheaper. If Williams stinks, we'll draft someone next year. Entry-level deals are much cheaper (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/cap-hit/running-back/entry-level/). He can block on 3rd downs much more effectively than McCoy. Has pretty good hands for a guy his size. He hasn't fumbled since 2011. He can break through an arm tackle on 3rd and inches, while McCoy cant. The flip side is he blows out an ACL before he gets going and sees himself as a free agent that can't run and is a year removed from looking like a good backup. There are inherent risks with playing out a 1 year deal too. Much like players don't love the franchise tag because it defers money and creates risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 yeah, you have us on the facts on how versatile tolbert will be, based on a quote from his coach in 2014. I was just trying to have a little fun here, sorry if you were offended. But in keeping with the facts, after Rivera said how valuable he would be, he ran for a whopping 2.1 ypc and 0 TD's, along with 0 TD's as a receiver out of the backfield, didn't fare much better the following 2 seasons. Please enjoy your tenure as president of the mike tolbert fan club. There we go, some statistics. My facts were based on a quote from his coach in 2014, and also quotes from his current coach 3-4 months ago. I'm also having fun, and not offended - I just enjoy making arguments based on substance, like you finally did a little bit of with some statistics. Speaking of, he followed up the 2.1 YPC as a fullback with 4.1 (2015) and 3.3 (2016) YPC as a fullback. He had 3 and 1 receiving TDs in 2015 and 2016 as a fullback. Not amazing, but not terrible for a fullback who is probably only being asked to get 3-4 yards (goal line & 3rd/4th down conversions). Here, he will be used as a fullback and as a halfback. More chances to put up statistics. Even if he's not the one carrying the ball and scoring, I like that he can help McCoy stay fresh and by paving the way for him. And not even a huge Tolbert fan - I would have preferred we kept Gillislee (and maybe still have added Tolbert to compete with Williams for HB3). Not expecting him to be some team saving all pro running back taking the league by storm at 31 years old, but am interested to see how his versatility and leadership helps the Bills. But yeah, I'll enjoy my tenure, so long as you enjoy yours as the Cherry-Pick Facts & Resort to Insults Club (affiliates of the League of Poorly Crafted Arguments). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadstroke Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 i can't imagine that it takes much prep time to be ready for a Tolbert running play. I still don't see changing from a McCoy to a Tolbert style RB is any sort of an advantage... unless Tolbert is really good, that's all that matters. What's so special about him gaining 3 yards in a pile of dust as opposed to McCoy ready to break one every time he touches the ball. That's 4 yards and a pile of dust. Hmm, 1 yard makes quite of difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 There we go, some statistics. My facts were based on a quote from his coach in 2014, and also quotes from his current coach 3-4 months ago. I'm also having fun, and not offended - I just enjoy making arguments based on substance, like you finally did a little bit of with some statistics. Speaking of, he followed up the 2.1 YPC as a fullback with 4.1 (2015) and 3.3 (2016) YPC as a fullback. He had 3 and 1 receiving TDs in 2015 and 2016 as a fullback. Not amazing, but not terrible for a fullback who is probably only being asked to get 3-4 yards (goal line & 3rd/4th down conversions). Here, he will be used as a fullback and as a halfback. More chances to put up statistics. Even if he's not the one carrying the ball and scoring, I like that he can help McCoy stay fresh and by paving the way for him. And not even a huge Tolbert fan - I would have preferred we kept Gillislee (and maybe still have added Tolbert to compete with Williams for HB3). Not expecting him to be some team saving all pro running back taking the league by storm at 31 years old, but am interested to see how his versatility and leadership helps the Bills. But yeah, I'll enjoy my tenure, so long as you enjoy yours as the Cherry-Pick Facts & Resort to Insults Club (affiliates of the League of Poorly Crafted Arguments). Honest questions here, since you've proclaimed an affinity for stats--- Any stats on how many carries were short yardage, or as a fullback, etc...? It's kind of the crux of your entire argument but not at all quantified Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Honest questions here, since you've proclaimed an affinity for stats--- Any stats on how many carries were short yardage, or as a fullback, etc...? It's kind of the crux of your entire argument but not at all quantified I'll look and try to find some statistics on how many carries were short yardage, but am not sure where to find those (anyone else have suggestions?). As far as I can tell, he was listed as a fullback for the Panthers 2012-2016, as opposed to halfback for the Chargers 2008-2011. It's admittedly an assumption that his Panthers carries were short-yardage, but not a huge leap given that most fullback carries come in short-yardage situations, and he was a fullback his entire time there. That is part of my argument, but not the whole. I've mostly emphasized his versatility - can run, catch, and block - and leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) I'll look and try to find some statistics on how many carries were short yardage, but am not sure where to find those (anyone else have suggestions?). As far as I can tell, he was listed as a fullback for the Panthers 2012-2016, as opposed to halfback for the Chargers 2008-2011. It's admittedly an assumption that his Panthers carries were short-yardage, but not a huge leap given that most fullback carries come in short-yardage situations, and he was a fullback his entire time there. That is part of my argument, but not the whole. I've mostly emphasized his versatility - can run, catch, and block - and leadership. I won't say I have the splits on that either but as someone that's seen some Carolina games -- he often lines up in shotgun sets as a single back as an example of that versatility beyond short yardage FB. If memory serves he also had a fair share of carries as the deep back though those aren't as vivid in my memory as the shotgun ones. Edited June 28, 2017 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Debate what he's worth all you want, but the Dynasty, Super Bowl Champs felt it was worth to pay him more than we did and make him their starter. They are right and will be right until proven otherwise. We messed up with Gilly. you just got played by Bill B. he messed your mind up Virgil. Bills took a reasonable risk. I like Mike Too. but nothing to fret over. Mike will likely play well for them. Lets see what kind of Running game Bills decided to implement this year before lamenting TDMike.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Attempts at insults are a common resort for people who cannot rely on facts. It happens more than it should on TBD. I hope your okay. Anyone want to talk football? Specifically the Buffalo Bills running back depth? I like Jon Williams and I think he is going to suprise some people He isnt gonna replace Shady....but he is a large pinball machine type back if he can cure his fumbles (which were not a problem in college....so unsure of why they surfaced in the NFL) Jon Williams had one of those type of injuries that takes longer then a year to fully recover from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 yeah, you have us on the facts on how versatile tolbert will be, based on a quote from his coach in 2014. I was just trying to have a little fun here, sorry if you were offended. But in keeping with the facts, after Rivera said how valuable he would be, he ran for a whopping 2.1 ypc and 0 TD's, along with 0 TD's as a receiver out of the backfield, didn't fare much better the following 2 seasons. Please enjoy your tenure as president of the mike tolbert fan club. As a contributing Member of Board of the mike tolbert fan club, i would like to thank you for your kind thoughts for our beloved President ! Cheers ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 I won't say I have the splits on that either but as someone that's seen some Carolina games -- he often lines up in shotgun sets as a single back as an example of that versatility beyond short yardage FB. If memory serves he also had a fair share of carries as the deep back though those aren't as vivid in my memory as the shotgun ones. I would like to see him line up in a variety of places and his versatility utilized. If nothing else, he should allow Dennison to get a little creative and keep the defense off balance a bit. For example, if he's the shotgun single back on say, a 3rd and 4, then he could viably take a dive or draw hand-off, stay at home to block, or run a route. The defense has to account for all three. I like Jon Williams and I think he is going to suprise some people He isnt gonna replace Shady....but he is a large pinball machine type back if he can cure his fumbles (which were not a problem in college....so unsure of why they surfaced in the NFL) Jon Williams had one of those type of injuries that takes longer then a year to fully recover from. I hope he surprises. The low YPC and fumbles do concern me though, but here's to hoping! As a contributing Member of Board of the mike tolbert fan club, i would like to thank you for your kind thoughts for our beloved President ! Cheers ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 I won't say I have the splits on that either but as someone that's seen some Carolina games -- he often lines up in shotgun sets as a single back as an example of that versatility beyond short yardage FB. If memory serves he also had a fair share of carries as the deep back though those aren't as vivid in my memory as the shotgun ones. Is this something we can expect from Dennison? Or do the current Bills backs spell some different looks with Dimarco being in there. Not familiar with Carolina at all myself. pardon me for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Is this something we can expect from Dennison? Or do the current Bills backs spell some different looks with Dimarco being in there. Not familiar with Carolina at all myself. pardon me for that Tolbert may see some packages as a 3rd down back in there. But I'd point out that Tyrod is not cam in these packages, and also that his low yards per carry included these packages. That last part being why I'm curious his actual splits when the other poster portrayed him as just getting FB carries (picturing those inside goal line carries that run into a pile) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Tolbert may see some packages as a 3rd down back in there. But I'd point out that Tyrod is not cam in these packages, and also that his low yards per carry included these packages. That last part being why I'm curious his actual splits when the other poster portrayed him as just getting FB carries (picturing those inside goal line carries that run into a pile) Found the splits, and do not think they support what I said all that well. Also feel like they are missing some short-yardage situations, but I could just be misreading the numbers. Here, and you can go through his different years on the link: http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/11658/mike-tolbert Before finding those numbers, I was going off the fact that he was listed as FB. Plus, I remember Fozzy Whittaker and Cameron Artis-Payne getting a decent amount of touches last year behind Jonathan Stewart, and the year prior they had DeAngelo Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) Found the splits, and do not think they support what I said all that well. Also feel like they are missing some short-yardage situations, but I could just be misreading the numbers. Here, and you can go through his different years on the link: http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/11658/mike-tolbert Before finding those numbers, I was going off the fact that he was listed as FB. Plus, I remember Fozzy Whittaker and Cameron Artis-Payne getting a decent amount of touches last year behind Jonathan Stewart, and the year prior they had DeAngelo Williams. I figured espn would have them but their mobile site cuts that section so I couldn't pull myself. It's all good, I've had images of players on teams I didn't watch much that didn't match reality before. I just happen to be in an NFC south city so I've seen him bust a few big plays vs the saints out of a halfback role. Ultimately I wish he took the 3rd/4th hb role here too behind MG (or similar) and Jwill for the depth chart but probably getting more snaps than Williams still in package roles but Williams stepping up with injuries while Tolbert stays a role player, special teamer and tone setter Edited June 28, 2017 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk71 Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Among NFL running backs with a qualifying number of carries, Gillislee led the league in yards per rush (5.71), rushes per touchdown (12.6), first-down rate on rushes (38.6 percent) and third-down conversion rate on rushes (75 percent) Anyone who thinks that any rb can do that is a frikin idiot. So tired of people saying that good rbs grow on trees. If it were true then every team would have one that led the league in multiple categories. The Bills backup running situation completely sucks at this point. If anybody thinks a 33 yr old fb is going to do what MG did you are completely out of your freakin mind. J Williams really looks like a superstar, I am pretty sure he led the league in something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) I figured espn would have them but their mobile site cuts that section so I couldn't pull myself. It's all good, I've had images of players on teams I didn't watch much that didn't match reality before. I just happen to be in an NFC south city so I've seen him bust a few big plays vs the saints out of a halfback role. Ultimately I wish he took the 3rd/4th hb role here too behind MG (or similar) and Jwill for the depth chart but probably getting more snaps than Williams still in package roles but Williams stepping up with injuries while Tolbert stays a role player, special teamer and tone setter Figured you had the NFC South information via NO. Unfortunately, not too confident anything done against the Saints defense is too great a marker in recent history. I'd like to think Williams can contribute more, but just did not see it last year. Given how good our line was at run blocking, his production did not seem all that great; 3.5 YPC is a little underwhelming considering our backs had 2.8 or so yards before contact on average. Hopefully he returns to more of what he showed in college. I can't say I have no hope for a HB going into his second season and who had a pretty major injury the year before. Definitely wish we kept Gillislee. Among NFL running backs with a qualifying number of carries, Gillislee led the league in yards per rush (5.71), rushes per touchdown (12.6), first-down rate on rushes (38.6 percent) and third-down conversion rate on rushes (75 percent) Anyone who thinks that any rb can do that is a frikin idiot. So tired of people saying that good rbs grow on trees. If it were true then every team would have one that led the league in multiple categories. The Bills backup running situation completely sucks at this point. If anybody thinks a 33 yr old fb is going to do what MG did you are completely out of your freakin mind. J Williams really looks like a superstar, I am pretty sure he led the league in something. Agree that we should have kept Gillislee, assuming you think that based on those numbers. While I don't expect him to give anywhere near Gillislee's output, Tolbert is 31 years old, not 33, and should contribute decently to our rushing attack. Sincere question: are you serious or sarcastic with the bolded statement? Would be very interested to know if he did lead the league in something. Edited June 28, 2017 by JohnBonhamRocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 That's 4 yards and a pile of dust. Hmm, 1 yard makes quite of difference. I was basing the 3 yards on what Tolbert actually did, not the cliche. There we go, some statistics. My facts were based on a quote from his coach in 2014, and also quotes from his current coach 3-4 months ago. I'm also having fun, and not offended - I just enjoy making arguments based on substance, like you finally did a little bit of with some statistics. Speaking of, he followed up the 2.1 YPC as a fullback with 4.1 (2015) and 3.3 (2016) YPC as a fullback. He had 3 and 1 receiving TDs in 2015 and 2016 as a fullback. Not amazing, but not terrible for a fullback who is probably only being asked to get 3-4 yards (goal line & 3rd/4th down conversions). Here, he will be used as a fullback and as a halfback. More chances to put up statistics. Even if he's not the one carrying the ball and scoring, I like that he can help McCoy stay fresh and by paving the way for him. And not even a huge Tolbert fan - I would have preferred we kept Gillislee (and maybe still have added Tolbert to compete with Williams for HB3). Not expecting him to be some team saving all pro running back taking the league by storm at 31 years old, but am interested to see how his versatility and leadership helps the Bills. But yeah, I'll enjoy my tenure, so long as you enjoy yours as the Cherry-Pick Facts & Resort to Insults Club (affiliates of the League of Poorly Crafted Arguments). Better than your made up facts. I will give you tremendous credit for admitting you were totally incorrect in how Tolbert had been used by Carolina and how productive he was as a RB v FB. He was barely used in the capacity that you hope to see him used here. I think you are more focused on his time as a charger, which were his glory days. Still, I hope YOU'RE correct in that he will be effective for us. But seriously, I was impressed that you put a link to his split stats that showed that you were wrong, a lot a people wouldn't do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 @TBNSports #Bills at RB: LeSean McCoy still looks to be at the top of his game. @viccarucci's positional series at [bN] Blitz: http://buffalonews.com/2017/06/27/bills-rb-lesean-mccoy-still-looks-top-game Here's the breakdown at running back: Returning: LeSean McCoy, Jonathan Williams and Cedric O'Neal. Newcomers: Joe Banyard, Jordan Johnson, Mike Tolbert (FB) and Patrick DiMarco (FB). Better, worse or the same?: Same. And that's not a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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