Thurman#1 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) We are not particularly tight. We could have kept more than one of those guys and been fine. We were very tight at the time. The reason we have a very small amount of space now is that we took extreme measures to save money. Including not tendering Gillislee at the higher level among other penny-pinching moves. Which to be clear, was smart. Past Bills regimes would have re-negotiated some contracts to free up space but at the same time would have moved the salary cap problems on into the future. Instead, McDermott and Co. bit the bullet and took their medicine. Me likey. But it cost us, and Gillislee is only one of the ways. Maclin, for instance may well have been another guy our cap issues affected this roster. And we are a team with very little depth this year and the cap is a lot of the reason why. Edited June 27, 2017 by Thurman#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 The Pats*** have 100 RB's. Let's see who they (and other) teams cut. But to the OP's original point, yes, I think we do need help at RB in terms of depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billykaykay Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 i've asked before without an answer, but what is so special about having someone slow and plodding as a replacement for someone as dynamic as McCoy. What is the benefit? I do agree with you in that Tolbert hasn't had much, if any, worthwhile production for the last 3 years. I may be wrong, but I can't imagine him making any significant contribution to this team. Can he be productive at his weight ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 It's less the slow and plodding, more the physicality and down-hill nature of his running. Just the change from a juking, shifty, quick McCoy to a straight-line runner like Tolbert is beneficial in that it requires opposing defenses to account for both running styles, not to mention the possibility that his last 3 years at fullback make whether he is blocking or carrying the ball an unknown. Tough to have production as a halfback when placed at fullback, but that's what happens when you're behind the likes of DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart (Whittaker and Artis-Payne aren't half bad either). Plus, he's shown ability as a pass-catcher. And if you're going as general as contribution to the team, then leadership and special teams, too. He's a do-it-all type (https://apnews.com/8b8f2058d7c84d6c85a966bd8878e333/veteran-fullback-tolbert-still-has-value-panthers). i can't imagine that it takes much prep time to be ready for a Tolbert running play. I still don't see changing from a McCoy to a Tolbert style RB is any sort of an advantage... unless Tolbert is really good, that's all that matters. What's so special about him gaining 3 yards in a pile of dust as opposed to McCoy ready to break one every time he touches the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Where you're ranked in terms of cap hit on the team doesn't mean much. Cap hits go up and down year to year depending on the contract. Means little to nothing. What means something is the money per year average number, $2.6 mill, which would've put Gillislee as the 27th highest paid RB in the league last year, probably a bit lower next year as salaries go up. That's about where he should be. Would've been very very reasonable to pay him that. But the bottom line is that we were having serious salary cap problems. We had to take some hits and not bring back some guys we would've liked to keep. Gillislee was in that group, probably with Gilmore, Zach Brown, Robey-Coleman and some depth guys. If we'd been in better shape we'd have almost surely kept at least some of those guys. This is what happens when your front office spends too much. And it doesn't make sense to do so on a team that then goes 7-9. We'd be a significantly better running game with Gillislee here. But getting the cap back into some kind of reasonable shape took priority. They're still tight but will be much better after another year of relative austerity. You can't have the 2nd highest paid RB in the NFL (the highest is on the tag), AND the highest paid backup in the NFL at RB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 i can't imagine that it takes much prep time to be ready for a Tolbert running play. I still don't see changing from a McCoy to a Tolbert style RB is any sort of an advantage... unless Tolbert is really good, that's all that matters. What's so special about him gaining 3 yards in a pile of dust as opposed to McCoy ready to break one every time he touches the ball. Hey you asked how he would contribute to the team and I answered. I'm not making a push for him to take carries away from McCoy, just explaining what value he can add to the team. It does take some time to prepare for two different style of back, and like I said, not knowing whether he is on the field to run, catch, or block is a strategic advantage, however big. If Tolbert were "really good," then he'd be a starter for a team. He's not, but he provides versatility, which is obviously valued by those running OBD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 You can't have the 2nd highest paid RB in the NFL (the highest is on the tag), AND the highest paid backup in the NFL at RB. And I'm thinking that Gillislee would have wanted to leave to maximize money and playing time. And get away from Buffalo for a chance to win. Hey you asked how he would contribute to the team and I answered. I'm not making a push for him to take carries away from McCoy, just explaining what value he can add to the team. It does take some time to prepare for two different style of back, and like I said, not knowing whether he is on the field to run, catch, or block is a strategic advantage, however big. If Tolbert were "really good," then he'd be a starter for a team. He's not, but he provides versatility, which is obviously valued by those running OBD. I know you did, then I commented again and now you. It's called a conversation. I'm not mad at you , i just disagree with the logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Not always true on negotiations. Some guys like money up front and the tag comes with zero pay til September essentially. If you could sign a 2-3 year deal at slightly less per year but a good bit in signing bonus there's an argument to be made for a player to take it. Also 13th highest pay day for the guy that would likely be 3rd highest touches behind Tyrod and McCoy isn't absurd. He would have been minimally ahead of a backup interior lineman, backup linebacker, fullback and 3rd string RT in our top 20 at the moment. With us leaning heavy on the run game, I'll take some known depth, personally. The agent's clearly going to leverage it. He also knows he makes more on the open market - so he walks in a year. Players only get 1 shot at a 2nd deal after their rookie deal. They want to maximize that pay day. So if he stayed at 2.6, and walked next year, then he factors into our comp pick formula for 2019. We got a 5th round pick in 2017 for losing him this year, instead of... probably a 5th round pick in 2019. For better or worse, Jonathan Williams is the guy with Tolbert as the likely insurance. It's not ideal but its cheaper. If Williams stinks, we'll draft someone next year. Entry-level deals are much cheaper (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/cap-hit/running-back/entry-level/). i can't imagine that it takes much prep time to be ready for a Tolbert running play. I still don't see changing from a McCoy to a Tolbert style RB is any sort of an advantage... unless Tolbert is really good, that's all that matters. What's so special about him gaining 3 yards in a pile of dust as opposed to McCoy ready to break one every time he touches the ball. He can block on 3rd downs much more effectively than McCoy. Has pretty good hands for a guy his size. He hasn't fumbled since 2011. He can break through an arm tackle on 3rd and inches, while McCoy cant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 I know you did, then I commented again and now you. It's called a conversation. I'm not mad at you , i just disagree with the logic. Familiar with the concept of conversation. My preference is to rely on facts, not repeat my opinion, fail to respond to the other person's points, and be condescending. I'm not mad at you either, I just disagree with your approach to conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Familiar with the concept of conversation. My preference is to rely on facts, not repeat my opinion, fail to respond to the other person's points, and be condescending. I'm not mad at you either, I just disagree with your approach to conversation jesus christ, this is getting ridiculous. I'll just wait til training camp and see how he confuses the defense with his versatility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 We were very tight at the time. The reason we have a very small amount of space now is that we took extreme measures to save money. Including not tendering Gillislee at the higher level among other penny-pinching moves. Which to be clear, was smart. Past Bills regimes would have re-negotiated some contracts to free up space but at the same time would have moved the salary cap problems on into the future. Instead, McDermott and Co. bit the bullet and took their medicine. Me likey. But it cost us, and Gillislee is only one of the ways. Maclin, for instance may well have been another guy our cap issues affected this roster. And we are a team with very little depth this year and the cap is a lot of the reason why. This is why we should try and carry some over. We will want to extend Sammy if he has a good year. May want to be a bit more active in Free agency again after sitting out the past few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) jesus christ, this is getting ridiculous. I'll just wait til training camp and see how he confuses the defense with his versatility No need to wait. I'll keep providing facts. How about the fact that we lost Gillislee, who was our goal line back? That’s because offensive coordinator Anthony Lynn confirmed that Gillislee is the team’s designated goal line back. “Shady is one of the most explosive backs in the league. He can get a lot of his touchdowns from outside the red zone, but Mike is that decisive, no nonsense type runner that you’re looking for inside the three, two-yard line,” said Lynn. “That’s his role and everybody in the backfield knows that’s his role and he’s going to get those touches when we get down there. And Shady is good with that.” (From 2016: http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Bills-Today-Gillislee-is-the-official-goal-line-back/00c9e8e0-36fe-4291-881a-72c266d5a5f1) How about the fact that we added Tolbert, an effective goal line back? Coach Ron Rivera hinted that Mike Tolbert will remain the Panthers goal-line back. Rivera alluded to the goal-line role when discussing the 13 pounds Tolbert lost this offseason. "We don't want him to lose that nose for the goal line that he has. A lot of times he's our fourth-down, go-to guy. He's our crunch-time guy," Rivera said. Tolbert had five rushing TDs on 101 carries last season while DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart combined for three rushing scores on 249 attempts. (From 2014: http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/290709/mike-tolbert-still-the-panthers-goal-line-rb) Personally, given that McCoy is, as you said, "ready to break one every time he touches the ball," I'd rather not have him taking the goal line carries and being the guy taking the beating. Sometimes you need a guy to get the 3 yards in a pile of dust to punch it in or convert a 3rd and short. I'd rather that be Tolbert than McCoy. I'd rather see McCoy for a full season. Edited June 27, 2017 by JohnBonhamRocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 No need to wait. I'll keep providing facts. How about the fact that we lost Gillislee, who was our goal line back? That’s because offensive coordinator Anthony Lynn confirmed that Gillislee is the team’s designated goal line back. “Shady is one of the most explosive backs in the league. He can get a lot of his touchdowns from outside the red zone, but Mike is that decisive, no nonsense type runner that you’re looking for inside the three, two-yard line,” said Lynn. “That’s his role and everybody in the backfield knows that’s his role and he’s going to get those touches when we get down there. And Shady is good with that.” (From 2016: http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Bills-Today-Gillislee-is-the-official-goal-line-back/00c9e8e0-36fe-4291-881a-72c266d5a5f1) How about the fact that we added Tolbert, an effective goal line back? Coach Ron Rivera hinted that Mike Tolbert will remain the Panthers goal-line back. Rivera alluded to the goal-line role when discussing the 13 pounds Tolbert lost this offseason. "We don't want him to lose that nose for the goal line that he has. A lot of times he's our fourth-down, go-to guy. He's our crunch-time guy," Rivera said. Tolbert had five rushing TDs on 101 carries last season while DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart combined for three rushing scores on 249 attempts. (From 2014: http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/290709/mike-tolbert-still-the-panthers-goal-line-rb) Personally, given that McCoy is, as you said, "ready to break one every time he touches the ball," I'd rather not have him taking the goal line carries and being the guy taking the beating. Sometimes you need a guy to get the 3 yards in a pile of dust to punch it in or convert a 3rd and short. I'd rather that be Tolbert than McCoy. I'd rather see McCoy for a full season. You are quoting Rivera from 2014. Tolbert may not be the same player he was 3 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 You are quoting Rivera from 2014. Tolbert may not be the same player he was 3 years ago. No player may be the same player they were last year. We can speculate or we can use sources and analyze factually. McDermott, a few months ago, seemed to think he's valuable though: Q: What does signing two fullbacks – or a guy who is very fullback-like because he’s a running back too, in Mike Tolbert – what does that say about your offensive plan? It’s not typical to have two fullbacks, so it makes a statement – or it seems to. A: Well, fullback is a big part of this offense, and let’s say this: it’s not limited to playing the fullback position. There’s versatility within that position, and what Mike brings to the table – as you mentioned, Mike Tolbert. I had the chance to be around Mike for a number of years in Carolina and I know what he brings to the table in terms of leadership, intangibles again, and what happens in that locker room on Monday through Saturday. So that’s a big part of it, and then Mike’s versatility on the field with the ability to play fullback, line up at fullback and then also transition to the halfback position and carry the football, and he’s done that extremely well. I had a front-row seat to observe what Mike’s skill set is, both on and off the field, and that was key for us. You’re talking about a guy that’s been to a Pro Bowl, and that’s really no different to [Patrick] DiMarco, in this case. ... Q: What would an example or two be about what Tolbert does from Monday to Saturday that makes it different? A: [laughs] The Tol-dozer. I think you’ll get a feel pretty early what he’s all about. First of all, he’s a family man, a good person, and in order to be a great leader, you’ve got to lead by example and you see that on a daily basis with a man of Mike’s caliber off the field. What he does in the community is phenomenal as well. He’s just got that “it” that people gravitate towards. He’s known as a solid dancer around the locker room and I think you’ll enjoy – if and when he gets in the end zone – he likes to showcase some of those talents. No, but he’s a good addition for us. ... Q: You’ve mentioned versatility a lot. It seems to be kind of a theme when you look at the players you signed today. How important is versatility and hybrid-type roles on both sides of the ball in your systems? A: There’s a term that we use called position flexibility. Versatility, position flexibility, same as – that’s important. You look at Micah Hyde: Micah’s been a returner, he’s played safety, and I mentioned corner and nickel. That’s important for us. Mike Tolbert’s played both fullback and halfback extremely well so you’re looking for that value in guys. When you add the component in the locker room with these individuals, that’s big for us. (March 9, 2017: http://buffalonews.com/2017/03/09/said-buffalo-bills-transcripts-sean-mcdermott-tyrod-taylor/) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 No player may be the same player they were last year. We can speculate or we can use sources and analyze factually. McDermott, a few months ago, seemed to think he's valuable though: Q: What does signing two fullbacks – or a guy who is very fullback-like because he’s a running back too, in Mike Tolbert – what does that say about your offensive plan? It’s not typical to have two fullbacks, so it makes a statement – or it seems to. A: Well, fullback is a big part of this offense, and let’s say this: it’s not limited to playing the fullback position. There’s versatility within that position, and what Mike brings to the table – as you mentioned, Mike Tolbert. I had the chance to be around Mike for a number of years in Carolina and I know what he brings to the table in terms of leadership, intangibles again, and what happens in that locker room on Monday through Saturday. So that’s a big part of it, and then Mike’s versatility on the field with the ability to play fullback, line up at fullback and then also transition to the halfback position and carry the football, and he’s done that extremely well. I had a front-row seat to observe what Mike’s skill set is, both on and off the field, and that was key for us. You’re talking about a guy that’s been to a Pro Bowl, and that’s really no different to [Patrick] DiMarco, in this case. ... Q: What would an example or two be about what Tolbert does from Monday to Saturday that makes it different? A: [laughs] The Tol-dozer. I think you’ll get a feel pretty early what he’s all about. First of all, he’s a family man, a good person, and in order to be a great leader, you’ve got to lead by example and you see that on a daily basis with a man of Mike’s caliber off the field. What he does in the community is phenomenal as well. He’s just got that “it” that people gravitate towards. He’s known as a solid dancer around the locker room and I think you’ll enjoy – if and when he gets in the end zone – he likes to showcase some of those talents. No, but he’s a good addition for us. ... Q: You’ve mentioned versatility a lot. It seems to be kind of a theme when you look at the players you signed today. How important is versatility and hybrid-type roles on both sides of the ball in your systems? A: There’s a term that we use called position flexibility. Versatility, position flexibility, same as – that’s important. You look at Micah Hyde: Micah’s been a returner, he’s played safety, and I mentioned corner and nickel. That’s important for us. Mike Tolbert’s played both fullback and halfback extremely well so you’re looking for that value in guys. When you add the component in the locker room with these individuals, that’s big for us. (March 9, 2017: http://buffalonews.com/2017/03/09/said-buffalo-bills-transcripts-sean-mcdermott-tyrod-taylor/) I hope your right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 I hope your right. I hope my right two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 I hope my right two. you need to get out more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 I hope my right two. You have two rights and no left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 you need to get out more. Right back atcha, bud. You have two rights and no left? What is a right, but three lefts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Right back atcha, bud. What is a right, but three lefts? I'm in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts