Reality Check Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, Tiberius said: He should have just told the truth It is a covert operation for counterintelligence. Everyone complicit in this fraud is weighed and measured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Not even one part of the Patriot Act was even allowed to be questioned. You would have been McCarthied if you voted against it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Just now, daz28 said: It gave extreme latitude, because it was thrown together with no debate. It basically says f the Constitution Yes and no. I'm not a fan of the Patriot Act or mass surveillance in general, but the Patriot Act has been reformed many times since its inception, and there are still many layers required to get a FISA on an American citizen. But even with these protections in place, what we know for a fact is that the Obama Administration (and likely the Bush admin before them) were abusing the mass surveillance tools to spy on Obama's political opposition. He used these tools to spy on Congress ( https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/a-brief-history-of-the-cias-unpunished-spying-on-the-senate/384003/ ) , to spy on American citizens, to spy on his political enemies, and to spy on the media. If you've never seen this document, you should read it in full (with extra attention paid to pages 82-84). It lays it out in black and white. https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/icotr/51117/2016_Cert_FISC_Memo_Opin_Order_Apr_2017.pdf Just now, daz28 said: Not even one part of the Patriot Act was even allowed to be questioned. You would have been McCarthied if you voted against it. Apply that to contact tracing in our present situation. Or any of the crackdowns. It's the same formula: FEAR makes people do stupid things, like giving up their rights for security which cannot be promised. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Both parties are currently using every tool in the book to maintain power. I think it's almost comical that anyone thinks any of it will ever change. It's only going to get worse. A prosecution might give the illusion of justice, but it's not like they're all gonna be good boys and girls after that. It will be a sacrificial lamb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 1 minute ago, daz28 said: Both parties are currently using every tool in the book to maintain power. I think it's almost comical that anyone thinks any of it will ever change. It's only going to get worse. A prosecution might give the illusion of justice, but it's not like they're all gonna be good boys and girls after that. It will be a sacrificial lamb So, you'd rather not try anything at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, daz28 said: Not as heavy as you'd think. It's the biggest breach of the Constitution EVER I am not arguing the merits of the Patriot Act, nor am I interested in what the FBI could have done. My point was, and still is, that they lied to the FISA Court in their applications to go after US citizens for political reasons. This, and this alone, should concern every single citizen in this country. Edited May 13, 2020 by billsfan1959 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 The thing with the Patriot Act is that people like Trumps lawyers love that stuff. It's never been interpreted, so bend and twist it like silly putty, and let the courts sort it out 8 years from now. As we speak, the quickly written Cares act is being laughed at by lawyers exploiting it who are 10x the law scholars that the people who wrote it are. They're pulling apples off the tree like they own it. 1 minute ago, Deranged Rhino said: So, you'd rather not try anything at all? I'd have liked to have started trying sometime around 1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Just now, daz28 said: I'd have liked to have started trying sometime around 1960 But since we can't go backwards, you're now inclined to throw up your hands and give up? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Just now, Deranged Rhino said: But since we can't go backwards, you're now inclined to throw up your hands and give up? Given the trajectory, I think I have the dumb and dumber "so you're saying there's a chance" chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, daz28 said: Given the trajectory, I think I have the dumb and dumber "so you're saying there's a chance" chance You clearly have not been paying attention to the developments in this case. Otherwise you'd see there's a real chance here to do more than give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 The only reason the greedy bloodsucking lawyers didn't steal every penny from the Cares act is because there's so many of them that they attacked the easy pickins like piranhas, which alerted the dummies who wrote it to their folly. They re-wrote it, then they gave some of the money back. Good thing we had eagle eye stable genius doing oversight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Following procedure is paramount when running an official investigation that will be prosecuted in the public space. However, surveillance is perpetual and does not require any special permission if you intend to wage war or settle a conflict "by other means" or "off the books". People need to get a grip on the degree that most of the surveillance apparatus is owned and operated by "private contractors". It's a vast web with eyes watching each others eyes. Let's not pretend that even the good guys are immune to running off the books operations. Integrity is not a left right false paradigm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 (edited) There's two types of scumbags. The ones who use the government to get rich, and those who are smarter than them 4 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: You clearly have not been paying attention to the developments in this case. Otherwise you'd see there's a real chance here to do more than give up. is there any happily ever after scenario you can envision? I'm sorry if I'm jaded, but only an idiot wouldn't be Edited May 13, 2020 by daz28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, daz28 said: is there any happily ever after scenario you can envision? I'm sorry if I'm jaded, but only an idiot wouldn't be There's no "ever after" because it's our duty as citizens in this republic to hold the government accountable. No one else's. So even when they are held accountable for this crime, and it was a crime -- the biggest scandal in US history -- it doesn't mean everything magically gets better. It's going to be a constant fight. That's our job. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 While embracing the now proven to be false Schiff memo. It was always a coup. 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 2 hours ago, billsfan1959 said: Or, maybe they believed a guilty plea was best, in lieu of a trial, when the FBI presented a case in which the evidence was of their own creation, with no oversight, and no way to prove it was not the truth.... Could be and also when attorney's have a client that can't fund a long fight, they will try to find a solution "within budget". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz28 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 27 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: There's no "ever after" because it's our duty as citizens in this republic to hold the government accountable. No one else's. So even when they are held accountable for this crime, and it was a crime -- the biggest scandal in US history -- it doesn't mean everything magically gets better. It's going to be a constant fight. That's our job. I disagree that it's the biggest scandal ever, and I hold that there's 10 worse that we never even knew about, but you're absolutely right. It IS our job to hold our government accountable, but we've failed the last 100 scandals to do so. The assault rifle was invented in 1944, and so far it has had zero effect on government accountability. Maybe I'm the grim face of reality, and most of you won't like that, but I've already mentally been where most of you are now a long time ago. I also don't care what people think, so it works for me. I certainly like people standing up for their liberty, but too many only think they know what it really looks like. Should you stand up for the rights of all Americans, or just the ones we agree with? Maybe that's an area that we failed in, while we were distracted by our division. The big picture is a lot bigger than we think it is. A lot 33 minutes ago, keepthefaith said: Could be and also when attorney's have a client that can't fund a long fight, they will try to find a solution "within budget". That happens to most Americans, and lawyers have been exploiting it for a looong time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdutton Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Warren Zevon said: 1 hour ago, Tiberius said: 1 hour ago, SectionC3 said: Thanks for completely wasting about 15 minutes of my life reading your willfully ignorant posts defending the indefensible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Here we go 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, daz28 said: I disagree that it's the biggest scandal ever, and I hold that there's 10 worse that we never even knew about, but you're absolutely right. Which? (out of curiosity, not argument) It's the first time in US history that a sitting president decided to actively interfere in the peaceful transition of power. And in doing so, aided and abetted an attempted coup of the incoming administration. There's never been anything like it -- and that doesn't even touch on the many tendrils that attach to this revolving around the abuse of the surveillance state to target political opposition prior to 2016. Edited May 13, 2020 by Deranged Rhino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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