Royale with Cheese Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 It would be nice to have other discussions than just quarterback. However, there are a significant portion of fans that have their mind made up that Tyrod is not the answer and it would be a monumental task on his part to wins those folks over. I'm not very confident in him but he could easily win me over if he does step up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 It would be nice to have other discussions than just quarterback. However, there are a significant portion of fans that have their mind made up that Tyrod is not the answer and it would be a monumental task on his part to wins those folks over. Really? If TT puts out a Derek Carr 2016 esque season, you think a "significant portion" of fans wouldn't be won over? There'd be maybe 2 or 3 posters tops who would still be vocal against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 It would be nice to have other discussions than just quarterback. However, there are a significant portion of fans that have their mind made up that Tyrod is not the answer and it would be a monumental task on his part to wins those folks over. I am not in that camp. I am certainly winnable for Tyrod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racketmaster Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) Really? If TT puts out a Derek Carr 2016 esque season, you think a "significant portion" of fans wouldn't be won over? There'd be maybe 2 or 3 posters tops who would still be vocal against him. I guess if Taylor had a season like Derek Carr or Matt Ryan then he would most likely win over the entire fan base. I just don't see that happening because Taylor is a different type of QB. He relies much more on his movement skills and many fans don't give much credit/respect to that aspect of his game and how that stresses a defense. Every qb has certain strengths and weaknesses and they all need to play to their strengths in order to perform at their best. I think Taylor will be a little better under Dennison but I would not expect a big leap in passing production. For me, Taylor has already been an effective qb (in that he extends plays wearing out a defense, can make big chunk plays, he stresses the edges of a defense, he throws a nice deep ball and he is relatively accurate while scrambling and throwing on the run). He is not and will almost certainly never be a drop back rythm/timing passer. That is not his game and an OC that would try and make Taylor into that type of passer should be fired. It would be like trying to make Tom Brady into a movement/roll out qb. Taylor has been able to utilize his tools to lead an offense to points (even when he is often missing many of his important weapons). Taylor will never be an elite qb but he can be a solid NFL qb. Look at Andy Dalton. He has put up some good passing seasons and lead his team to the playoffs. But last year he loses many of his weapons and he is not very effective as a qb. I think Taylor has been a better overall qb than Dalton or A. Smith. He is 15-14 as a starter and that is with a below average defense, a series of significant injuries, unreliable kicking and an undisciplined coaching staff. In the right situation, Taylor can easily lead a team to 10 wins and a playoff birth. For me, that is good enough right now. If Taylor were able to get the Bills to the spot the Bengals and Chiefs have been the past few years, I would be happy. Once the Bills get to that spot and Taylor has proved he cannot lead them to the SB, then I would be looking to improve at the position (ie. what the Chiefs did by trading up). Edited May 19, 2017 by racketmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) I guess if Taylor had a season like Derek Carr or Matt Ryan then he would most likely win over the entire fan base. I just don't see that happening because Taylor is a different type of QB. He relies much more on his movement skills and many fans don't give much credit/respect to that aspect of his game and how that stresses a defense. Every qb has certain strengths and weaknesses and they all need to play to their strengths in order to perform at their best. I think Taylor will be a little better under Dennison but I would not expect a big leap in passing production. For me, Taylor has already been an effective qb (in that he extends plays wearing out a defense, can make big chunk plays, he stresses the edges of a defense, he throws a nice deep ball and he is relatively accurate while scrambling and throwing on the run). He is not and will almost certainly never be a drop back rythm/timing passer. That is not his game and an OC that would try and make Taylor into that type of passer should be fired. It would be like trying to make Tom Brady into a movement/roll out qb. Taylor has been able to utilize his tools to lead an offense to points (even when he is often missing many of his important weapons). Taylor will never be an elite qb but he can be a solid NFL qb. Look at Andy Dalton. He has put up some good passing seasons and lead his team to the playoffs. But last year he loses many of his weapons and he is not very effective as a qb. I think Taylor has been a better overall qb than Dalton or A. Smith. He is 15-14 as a starter and that is with a below average defense, a series of significant injuries, unreliable kicking and an undisciplined coaching staff. In the right situation, Taylor can easily lead a team to 10 wins and a playoff birth. For me, that is good enough right now. If Taylor were able to get the Bills to the spot the Bengals and Chiefs have been the past few years, I would be happy. Once the Bills get to that spot and Taylor has proved he cannot lead them to the SB, then I would be looking to improve at the position (ie. what the Chiefs did by trading up). Well I guess we'll wait and see if he can. For all the flak Dalton gets, I think he's a much better QB than TT and has a much better chance of winning a SB in his career. Sometimes, there isn't more to winning than an uncanny knack for it. Peyton had great numbers his whole career, numbers on par with Brady, but there's a reason Brady won a ton more than him. It's hard to describe, explain or point to. But it's a clear phenomenon. I think we see a similar parallel with Alex Smith and TT. Alex Smith just wins more. The stat line doesn't say why. He just does. Edited May 19, 2017 by jmc12290 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Well I guess we'll wait and see if he can. For all the flak Dalton gets, I think he's a much better QB than TT and has a much better chance of winning a SB in his career. Sometimes, there isn't more to winning than an uncanny knack for it. Peyton had great numbers his whole career, numbers on par with Brady, but there's a reason Brady won a ton more than him. It's hard to describe, explain or point to. But it's a clear phenomenon. I think we see a similar parallel with Alex Smith and TT. Alex Smith just wins more. The stat line doesn't say why. He just does. The stat line does say why, it just isn't the QB's stat line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 The stat line does say why, it just isn't the QB's stat line. Well the 4th Quarter Comeback and game winning drive stats tell us something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racketmaster Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Well I guess we'll wait and see if he can. For all the flak Dalton gets, I think he's a much better QB than TT and has a much better chance of winning a SB in his career. Sometimes, there isn't more to winning than an uncanny knack for it. Peyton had great numbers his whole career, numbers on par with Brady, but there's a reason Brady won a ton more than him. It's hard to describe, explain or point to. But it's a clear phenomenon. I think we see a similar parallel with Alex Smith and TT. Alex Smith just wins more. The stat line doesn't say why. He just does. I will agree that stats don't necessarily lead to wins. Cutler is an easy example for this point. But there are others. Stafford has had some pretty good qb stats but has been below average in the win/loss category. Other qbs with a worse w/l record that Taylor are Tannehill, Winston, Carr, Cousins, Bradford and Mariotta. I would think some of those teams view the above guys as franchise worthy qbs. I don't think Taylor has been in an ideal situation as far has w/l record goes. In my opinion, he is much more of a playmaker than Dalton or Smith will ever be but he has lacked defensive support and health from his offensive skill positions. Plus, HC matters and Ryan is a proven below average HC in the league where as a guy like Smith has had Harbaugh and now Andy Reid. Is it much of a coincidence that Smith rarely won games before Harbaugh came to SF? Taylor has been pretty solid playing for a below average coach, so I definitely believe there is room for him to get to the 10 or 11 win category with a solid HC and good defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Well the 4th Quarter Comeback and game winning drive stats tell us something. Those stats tell very interesting stories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Those stats tell very interesting stories Yeah, TT needs 6 more years on the Bills to reach those stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) Well the 4th Quarter Comeback and game winning drive stats tell us something. its fairly evident thats big part of taylors game that needs working on. but to turn a blind eye to the teams alex smith has had around him in the debate is just so foolish..... more so than anything its pretty obvious that smith has won on a regular basis becuz of the good situations he was involved with in each city.... lets not act like his 15 td's last year was lighting anyone on fire. smith doesnt make big mistakes, he's efficient(sound like anyone you know?) and his team supports him on both sides of the ball. it would be hard to convince me that taylors play wouldnt have gotten the chiefs of the last couple years to the playoffs or the niners that smith had a couple years ago as well. glossing over that and just picking and choosing weak points of taylors that help your arguement is just silly Edited May 19, 2017 by Stank_Nasty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 its fairly evident thats big part of taylors game that needs working on. but to turn a blind eye to the teams alex smith has had around him in the debate is just so foolish..... more so than anything its pretty obvious that smith has won on a regular basis becuz of the good situations he was involved with in each city.... lets not act like his 15 td's last year was lighting anyone on fire. smith doesnt make big mistakes, he's efficient(sound like anyone you know?) and his team supports him on both sides of the ball. it would be hard to convince me that taylors play wouldnt have gotten the chiefs of the last couple years to the playoffs or the niners that smith had a couple years ago as well. glossing over that and just picking and choosing weak points of taylors that help your arguement is just silly yup Really? If TT puts out a Derek Carr 2016 esque season, you think a "significant portion" of fans wouldn't be won over? There'd be maybe 2 or 3 posters tops who would still be vocal against him. To be honest I dont think you will every see that They just are not the same type of qbs (I am a big Carr fan) It doesnt mean that we cannot win with TT.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) Yeah, TT needs 6 more years on the Bills to reach those stats. When you look at 4QC and GWD as rates based on the number of starts a QB has it can help with comparisons (still not a good rate for Tyrod, but sample size is pretty low still). Of the smattering of QBs I looked at, Brady is 8th in 4QC and 6th in GWD for instance. Peyton is 11th & 9th, Russ Wilson is 2nd & 1st, Brian Hoyer is 5th & 12th, Drew Brees is 20th & 14th, Aaron Rodgers is 26th & 23rd, Tyrod is 27th & T-25th. Here's a sheet, sorted by GWD%: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IWkjyirqnZ-tZx_t865UMd0Fq3YjlOUT_f4xUv7-LrE/edit?usp=sharing Edited May 19, 2017 by BuffaloHokie13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) When you look at 4QC and GWD as rates based on the number of starts a QB has it can help with comparisons (still not a good rate for Tyrod, but sample size is pretty low still). Of the smattering of QBs I looked at, Brady is 8th in 4QC and 6th in GWD for instance. Peyton is 11th & 9th, Russ Wilson is 2nd & 1st, Brian Hoyer is 5th & 12th, Drew Brees is 20th & 14th, Aaron Rodgers is 26th & 23rd, Tyrod is 27th & T-25th. Here's a sheet, sorted by GWD%: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IWkjyirqnZ-tZx_t865UMd0Fq3YjlOUT_f4xUv7-LrE/edit?usp=sharing Looks about right with a few notable exceptions. yup To be honest I dont think you will every see that They just are not the same type of qbs (I am a big Carr fan) It doesnt mean that we cannot win with TT.... Win what? 9-10 games? Edited May 19, 2017 by jmc12290 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Looks about right with a few notable exceptions. Win what? 9-10 games? Also, for what it's worth, 9 of the 27 players in that sheet have more GWD than Tyrod has starts. That's why I had to do a 2nd pass and add in guys like Winston, Mariota, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 I've understood what you have been arguing about the whole time. It just doesn't hold any water. The Bills do not view Tyrod Taylor currently as the Quarterback of the future unless by future you mean 2017 season. I think we have sufficient evidence for that be indisputable. I don't know what more proof you would require. But I suspect nothing would pursuade you. #CoT. Geez dude... Your entire argument is based on the premise that Buffalo would have released Taylor if he didn't accept the pay cut. That's an opinion. Not a fact. Clearly there's plenty else we disagree on but I think I've been pretty good in terms of explaining things. You've explained yourself, too. I've read your responses and accept them as reasonable. But I still disagree and certainly won't accept just letting it sit as fact for you to always bring up as fact in other discussion connected to it with me. I don't know why you need this opinion to be fact so badly... #anTy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Looks about right with a few notable exceptions. Win what? 9-10 games? If we won 10 games would you be upset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Geez dude... Your entire argument is based on the premise that Buffalo would have released Taylor if he didn't accept the pay cut. That's an opinion. Not a fact. Clearly there's plenty else we disagree on but I think I've been pretty good in terms of explaining things. You've explained yourself, too. I've read your responses and accept them as reasonable. But I still disagree and certainly won't accept just letting it sit as fact for you to always bring up as fact in other discussion connected to it with me. I don't know why you need this opinion to be fact so badly... #anTy What would have happened if Taylor said, Nope not taking a pay cut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 What would have happened if Taylor said, Nope not taking a pay cut? I can't say anything as fact because I don't know things that don't happen as fact. I can't slide into alternate realities the way some apparently can and find out. BUT... I think the Bills would have picked up his option. The moment Taylor made that comment on clean out day I said a number of times from there on out that Buffalo would have been fiscally irresponsible to NOT try to get Taylor to renegotiate and that we would be hearing things "out of" OBD from "experts" and "insiders" that would need to be taken with a grain of salt because those types of "private-made-public" comments are often used in these types of scenarios to leverage the other side and get a better deal. It was a big game of chicken and Taylor flinched first. But I really don't think Buffalo was prepared to cut him and go into the 2017 NFL year with Cardale Jones and Josh Woodrum as our QBs with the hope of finding some other capable starter for this year in FA or the draft because I think McDermott wants to win now, not later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) Geez dude... Your entire argument is based on the premise that Buffalo would have released Taylor if he didn't accept the pay cut. That's an opinion. Not a fact. Clearly there's plenty else we disagree on but I think I've been pretty good in terms of explaining things. You've explained yourself, too. I've read your responses and accept them as reasonable. But I still disagree and certainly won't accept just letting it sit as fact for you to always bring up as fact in other discussion connected to it with me. I don't know why you need this opinion to be fact so badly... #anTy Why would Tyrod's agent be talking to other teams at the combine and testing the market if he was not in danger of being cut? Your bias is clouding your judgement here. Edited May 19, 2017 by Bangarang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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