jeffismagic Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 Whaley has his faults but he is not a fool. Do you really believe that he would be so determined to get rid of TT if he felt that he was a legitimate franchise qb that could elevate this team into a contending team? Let's get serious. How many teams were willing to take TT this offseason even if it was only to be a bridge qb at a reasonable price? There were plenty of teams who were in a dire straight at the qb position but none of them made the purchase. Ask yourself why not? The organization halved his salary and structured his contract so that he could be let go after this season without much cap ramifications. That certainly doesn't indicate that his services are valued, especially on a long term basis. Unless it was a complete smokescreen the Bills put in more effort examining the crop of qbs than they have for a long time. Are they going to take a prospect with a high pick? Probably not. That's one of the primary reasons why this franchise has not been in the playoffs for a generation. You can cite all the statistics you want and interpret them the way you want. But watching the games it is starkly evident to me that the offense he runs from a passing standpoint is elementary. While you say it is due to coaching I say it is due to his glaring limitations. This is thoughtful and takes into account information from NFL teams on how the league actually views Tyrod. Unfortunately, there are people who will go down with that ship. I think most were ready to be with you but one game late in the year where Miami was playing street free agents in their back 7 made the TT fans believe that game that TT was improving or turning the corner. They refuse to think that even backup QB's have a nice NFL game now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 Overrated. Dude......I seen your picture(on your mom's nightstand).......and sorry, but you ain't never gotten a piece in that category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 The responses to this thread are pretty typical offseason myopathy. Health. If there is ONE thing they need, it's going to be EXCEPTIONAL health. A lot of question marks, and at the very least, no depth at WR, CB and pass rusher........3 of the 5 most critical positions (QB and LT). A consistently dominant running game is their best chance to overcome/offset any injuries elsewhere and if they don't match MG they are closing eyes and crossing fingers there too. If they stay healthy and the existing starters play to their proven ability and Shaq, Ragnuts and Seymour match the hype they could be pretty good. That's a lot of "ifs" but stranger things have happened. You pointed out something that isn't emphasized by many: This is a thin roster. With the lack of depth there is going to be a noticeable drop off when the reserves fill in. This team more so than most is counting on its running game. Teams are going to adjust to the imbalance in our offense. It's difficult for defenses to counter an offense that is spreading the ball around in the passing game. It is less difficult for a defense to adjust to a team that emphasizes the run game. It doesn't take much imagination to stack the defense to counter the run and force you to pass. I don't have the stats but our offense had to be near the top of the list for three and outs. You left out the OL when talking about units that are thin. Is Kujo coming back? Who is our RT? Two years ago Incognito was arguably one of the best guards in the league. Last year he was good but a lesser presence compared to his first year with us. How much is he going to decline as he gets older? If the Bills are 8-8 I will consider it a pleasant surprise. I'm hoping I'm wrong but I see this as a 6 to 7 win season with the ignominious streak in tact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 You pointed out something that isn't emphasized by many: This is a thin roster. With the lack of depth there is going to be a noticeable drop off when the reserves fill in. This team more so than most is counting on its running game. Teams are going to adjust to the imbalance in our offense. It's difficult for defenses to counter an offense that is spreading the ball around in the passing game. It is less difficult for a defense to adjust to a team that emphasizes the run game. It doesn't take much imagination to stack the defense to counter the run and force you to pass. I don't have the stats but our offense had to be near the top of the list for three and outs. You left out the OL when talking about units that are thin. Is Kujo coming back? Who is our RT? Two years ago Incognito was arguably one of the best guards in the league. Last year he was good but a lesser presence compared to his first year with us. How much is he going to decline as he gets older? If the Bills are 8-8 I will consider it a pleasant surprise. I'm hoping I'm wrong but I see this as a 6 to 7 win season with the ignominious streak in tact. ...the perennial contenders have one or two good drafts and then are merely filling in minor gaps via FA..a/k/a roster depth...Bflo has never seemed to reach that point in the last decade+.....always MAJOR holes and only so much putty to fill the Wikileaks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 This is thoughtful and takes into account information from NFL teams on how the league actually views Tyrod. Unfortunately, there are people who will go down with that ship. I think most were ready to be with you but one game late in the year where Miami was playing street free agents in their back 7 made the TT fans believe that game that TT was improving or turning the corner. They refuse to think that even backup QB's have a nice NFL game now and then. There are games where TT will sparkle. But those intermittent quality efforts don't reflect his standard performance. He throws a beautiful long ball. But he is not naturally accurate and isn't a rhythm passer who can hit the seams and consistently make the tight throws. For those who believe TT is a legitimate franchise qb I challenge the loyalists to compare his game to passers who are in the top third of the rankings. There is a qualitative difference to their respective game that isn't always captured by the stats but is clearly evident when watching the games. I have never argued that TT isn't an adequate qb. Because he is. However, for me that is not good enough. Until the caliber of our qbing is elevated this team is at best a middle of the pack type team, a category that applies to 50-70% of the teams. ...the perennial contenders have one or two good drafts and then are merely filling in minor gaps via FA..a/k/a roster depth...Bflo has never seemed to reach that point in the last decade+.....always MAJOR holes and only so much putty to fill the Wikileaks... Because of the cap all teams have to contend with roster changes. It seems with Buffalo more than with most teams even when we make a good draft selection we seem to disproportionately lose those players when their first contract is up. Gilmore and Clements come to mind. As you indicated drafting well is the most cost effective and best approach to building a roster and responding the inevitable movement of players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 (edited) There are games where TT will sparkle. But those intermittent quality efforts don't reflect his standard performance. He throws a beautiful long ball. But he is not naturally accurate and isn't a rhythm passer who can hit the seams and consistently make the tight throws. For those who believe TT is a legitimate franchise qb I challenge the loyalists to compare his game to passers who are in the top third of the rankings. There is a qualitative difference to their respective game that isn't always captured by the stats but is clearly evident when watching the games. I have never argued that TT isn't an adequate qb. Because he is. However, for me that is not good enough. Until the caliber of our qbing is elevated this team is at best a middle of the pack type team, a category that applies to 50-70% of the teams. Because of the cap all teams have to contend with roster changes. It seems with Buffalo more than with most teams even when we make a good draft selection we seem to disproportionately lose those players when their first contract is up. Gilmore and Clements come to mind. As you indicated drafting well is the most cost effective and best approach to building a roster and responding the inevitable movement of players. ....many will beotch but look at the Pats model......take away the run and Brady can put it up 40+ times and hand it off 15...result?..W....OR.....take away the passing game and he'll put it up 15+ times and hand it off 35+ times..result?...same W....Bflo does not have that consistent versatility at QB spot with TT, now....or maybe never....we are "run or done" unless his wheels bail us out or he has a game where he does find a receiver or two...no consistency IMO.................. Edited April 23, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 (edited) You pointed out something that isn't emphasized by many: This is a thin roster. With the lack of depth there is going to be a noticeable drop off when the reserves fill in. This team more so than most is counting on its running game. Teams are going to adjust to the imbalance in our offense. It's difficult for defenses to counter an offense that is spreading the ball around in the passing game. It is less difficult for a defense to adjust to a team that emphasizes the run game. It doesn't take much imagination to stack the defense to counter the run and force you to pass. I don't have the stats but our offense had to be near the top of the list for three and outs. You left out the OL when talking about units that are thin. Is Kujo coming back? Who is our RT? Two years ago Incognito was arguably one of the best guards in the league. Last year he was good but a lesser presence compared to his first year with us. How much is he going to decline as he gets older? If the Bills are 8-8 I will consider it a pleasant surprise. I'm hoping I'm wrong but I see this as a 6 to 7 win season with the ignominious streak in tact. Just FYI Bills had 39 drives that went 3 and out. Patriots had 43 Miami 53 Jets 38 Fewest in NFL was Atlanta = 24 Edited April 23, 2017 by PolishDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 (edited) Just FYI Bills had 39 drives that went 3 and out. Patriots had 43 Miami 53 Fewest in NFL was Atlanta = 24 Yeah I think John C was thinking about 2015. Remember we had someone on here CONSTANTLY harping on Tyrod being responsible for the Bills leading the NFL in 3 and outs? Who was that clown? Bills didn't have as many in 2016.......in part because Mike Gillislee lead the NFL in 3rd down and short run conversion with 75% efficency. Too bad they didn't activate him until late in 2015. Edited April 23, 2017 by #BADOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 ....many will beotch but look at the Pats model......take away the run and Brady can put it up 40+ times and hand it off 15...result?..W....OR.....take away the passing game and he'll put it up 15+ times and hand it off 35+ times..result?...same W....Bflo does not have that consistent versatility at QB spot with TT, now....or maybe never....we are "run or done" unless his wheels bail us out or he has a game where he does find a receiver or two...no consistency IMO.................. How many games can you name where the Patriots opponent took away their passing game and the Patriots ran the ball 35+ times and won? You just made that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Just FYI Bills had 39 drives that went 3 and out. Patriots had 43 Miami 53 Fewest in NFL was Atlanta = 24 I appreciate the information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 How many games can you name where the Patriots opponent took away their passing game and the Patriots ran the ball 35+ times and won? You just made that up. ...seriously?......you must be joking...they beat you no matter how they have to...look it up..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xRUSHx Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 I want one of the top 4 QBs from this draft, nothing else matters in this QB driven league. With Tyrod this staff has no future. Watson is my choice then Trub, Kizer Mahome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 (edited) ...seriously?......you must be joking...they beat you no matter how they have to...look it up..... Nice answer. In other words you have zero proof. Patriots primarily win with Brady's arm and by playing good defense. Take away their passing game and they are very beatable. Even the Bills have done it. I reiterate - You freakin made that **** up dude! Total B.S. fabrication. And you know it. You just don't want to admit it. Patriots ranked 24th in average yards per carry last year. Certainly not dominant. Not even close. If they had to beat you solely on their running game, they couldn't. They would lose. Remember the Bills game? Take away their passing game = Patriots are screwed as are most teams. Edited April 23, 2017 by PolishDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 ...seriously?......you must be joking...they beat you no matter how they have to...look it up..... Im my humble opinion......the patriots tend to beat you by allowing you to just beat yourself They dont make a lot of mistakes....and they just wear you down....and you start making mistakes....and they capitalize on it Yes....Brady kills you....but it it just more then that.....they are excellently coached Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Im my humble opinion......the patriots tend to beat you by allowing you to just beat yourself They dont make a lot of mistakes....and they just wear you down....and you start making mistakes....and they capitalize on it Yes....Brady kills you....but it it just more then that.....they are excellently coached ....FIVE Lombardis say you are absolutely right.......they can beat you in a multitude of ways or as you said, let you beat yourself.....pick your poison........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 I'd like to see a defense that looks like it's well-coached, aggressive, and that fields players who know their assignments. And I'd like to see Tyrod make quicker decisions with the ball and throw it more accurately with better anticipation while still maintaining ball security. Finally, I'd also like to see Rico give us an offense that can run the ball as effectively as we did last year. Just FYI Bills had 39 drives that went 3 and out. Patriots had 43 Miami 53 Jets 38 Fewest in NFL was Atlanta = 24 I've gotta admit, this surprises me. Good research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Discipline and intensity. You know, this would work as a two word summary of what I want to see, which I would describe as "watchable football". I want to see a team that looks like they've game planned for an opponent every single game, play smart and disciplined, play with intensity for 60 minutes, and show sound fundamentals on both lines and in blocking tackling defending passes and receiving. I don't want to see what looks like coaches taking a game off or players taking a play (or a series) off or phoning in the game. Discipline and intensity is not a bad way of summing that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figster Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Nice answer. In other words you have zero proof. Patriots primarily win with Brady's arm and by playing good defense. Take away their passing game and they are very beatable. Even the Bills have done it. I reiterate - You freakin made that **** up dude! Total B.S. fabrication. And you know it. You just don't want to admit it. Patriots ranked 24th in average yards per carry last year. Certainly not dominant. Not even close. If they had to beat you solely on their running game, they couldn't. They would lose. Remember the Bills game? Take away their passing game = Patriots are screwed as are most teams. I think your putting to much emphasis on the number 35 Dave BB can beat you in many ways including running the football and minus Tom Brady. We already know that though right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevWarRifleman Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Polish Dave, your post #93 is right on. Brady's arm has been the Pats meal ticket for years. Take him away, the Pats are fairly beatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 (edited) Polish Dave, your post #93 is right on. Brady's arm has been the Pats meal ticket for years. Take him away, the Pats are fairly beatable. Any one who isn't a fool recognizes that Brady is the primary reason why the Pats have been overall the best team for a generation. But certainly not the only reason. What's the point of arguing "what if" they didn't have him? They do have him and not only have had him for a generation but also will have him for at least the next few years. And by the way their backup qb is better than our starter, and their third string qb probably has more upside than our starter. Acknowledging the reality of the situation the next obvious question is how does one go about beating the most successful franchise in the game or for the better teams in the league? It certainly isn't done with one of the lowest rated passing offenses in the game. For the past generation the Pats have beaten us nearly 90% of the time. Not having upper tier qbing is not the only reason why this team has done poorly but it is a major reason. Too many people are making the argument that if you address one side of the ball you are not addressing the other side of the ball. I disagree with that premise. The Bills currently have a respectable bridge qb on the roster so this is a good time to get a good prospect on the roster to develop. If you want to beat good teams, which the Bills have a dismal record against, you have to have a higher level of play from the qb position then we have had. That's the reality of the NFL of today. If your highest aspiration is to be a fringe wild-card contending team then TT is more than adequate. If you have a higher aspiration to be a seriously contending team then you need to substantially improve the quality of play from that position. Edited April 23, 2017 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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