TheElectricCompany Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Based on his historical QB ratings , his 2015 MVP season was actualy more of the anomaly. QB ratings are only part of the equation for Cam, you have to account for his ability to run the football. He holds the NFL records for TDs by QB. 3600 yards and 48 TDs in his career already. 6'6" and 245? It's like having a defensive end run around. There is no QB in the league that is better running downfield than Cam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 How many has each played in? How much double digit win seasons have each had? I suppose it comes down to how you define success. The Bills have appeared in 4 Super Bowls since the last time the Bengals won a playoff game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 I suppose it comes down to how you define success. The Bills have appeared in 4 Super Bowls since the last time the Bengals won a playoff game. If it was still 94, I'd say we've been more successful. If TT had led us to back to back 11-5 and 10-6 seasons and two playoff appearances, he'd be considered a successful QB, there would be less debate, and he'd be making more money here because we would never pretend to consider letting him go. That's really it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 The problem with waiting for a Luck/Winston/Mariota is the Bills haven't finished with a top 2 pick in over 3 decades. So even if we had a 1 2 QB combo that was awesome the Bills wouldn't get one. After you clear two top QB's then you are looking at prospects that are weaker than what the Bills can choose this year at ten. The only way you can sell a wait for next year QB class is if your team has a plan for getting there. That is obviously not happening. Rosen, Darnold, Jackson, Allen, Falk, Rudolph, Browning, etc... Next year's class appears to be quite deep. Most years if you take a QB at 10 (for example) you may be taking the 30th best player on your board. Next year you might be taking the 8th best player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Rosen, Darnold, Jackson, Allen, Falk, Rudolph, Browning, etc... Next year's class appears to be quite deep. Most years if you take a QB at 10 (for example) you may be taking the 30th best player on your board. Next year you might be taking the 8th best player. It's not 2004. You are just naming guys. Unless you are saying that you already rate Falk and Browning over Trubisky and Mahomes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheElectricCompany Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 It's not 2004. You are just naming guys. Unless you are saying that you already rate Falk and Browning over Trubisky and Mahomes? Every year, someone raves about next years QB class, and every year it seems to fall short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Maiden Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Andrew Luck is way too high. Has he consistently performed as a top 10 QB throughout his career? I don't think so. Cam is a top 10 QB - no doubt about it, he just had an off year. Those are the only glaring issues I have with this list. He was doing very well...went to the playoffs 3 years in a row, improving every year ( 1st round, divisional, AFC Championship )....then injuries kicked in....IMO, Luck is a hell of a talent..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheElectricCompany Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 He was doing very well...went to the playoffs 3 years in a row, improving every year ( 1st round, divisional, AFC Championship )....then injuries kicked in....IMO, Luck is a hell of a talent..... He's certainly a good QB, likely great, but I think he's overhyped at this point of his career, and not someone I'd consider a top 6-10 player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCD Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 If it was still 94, I'd say we've been more successful. If TT had led us to back to back 11-5 and 10-6 seasons and two playoff appearances, he'd be considered a successful QB, there would be less debate, and he'd be making more money here because we would never pretend to consider letting him go. That's really it. Who is in a division with the Patriots? And who is in a division with the Browns? reverse the two and I see the same record... Tyrod is a more than decent QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 (edited) Who is in a division with the Patriots? And who is in a division with the Browns? reverse the two and I see the same record... Tyrod is a more than decent QB. You're kidding, right? The Bengals have to compete with 2 very good teams every year in the Ravens and Steelers. In fact, the NFC North regularly puts out 2 playoff teams almost every year. When you have 3 teams that regularly compete for the division title, it ain't easy to always make the postseason. Yes, the Browns suck some years. Some years the Dolphins and/or Jets suck. Lame excuse. Edited April 5, 2017 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 If it was still 94, I'd say we've been more successful. If TT had led us to back to back 11-5 and 10-6 seasons and two playoff appearances, he'd be considered a successful QB, there would be less debate, and he'd be making more money here because we would never pretend to consider letting him go. That's really it. I'm curious for your answer then. If the Bills were to go 10-6 every year for the next 5 years, but never win a playoff game, would you consider them a successful team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 I'm curious for your answer then. If the Bills were to go 10-6 every year for the next 5 years, but never win a playoff game, would you consider them a successful team? I would consider them having more success than a team that can't win more than 8. Not the best team in the NFL, but if you make the playoffs, you're top 12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCD Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 I would consider them having more success than a team that can't win more than 8. Not the best team in the NFL, but if you make the playoffs, you're top 12. I'm more sure that the Bills making the playoffs this year, than I am of you ever finding happiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 I remember when there were arguments about who was better: EJ or Geno. In the end, it didn't matter. Neither are in the top 32. Does it really matter? They both are getting shots at being backups on SB contenders. Barkley was barely NFL caliber before last season and now is a top 50 qb. Lists are so silly. There isn't a NFL GM would trade Newton for brittle Captain Checkdown Bradford. What the hell has Tom Savage or Brett Huntley even done but not play so we don't know if they are good or bad. Connor Cook is a less talent version of Jay Cutler. And no NFL GM would trade Dalton for Taylor. Dalton had a MVP type season two years and the bBengals were looking like the best team in the NFL before he got hurt. Dalton lost his 2nd and 3rd WRs to FA and had his all pro TE missing most of the season. He's better than Tyrod. I'm curious for your answer then. If the Bills were to go 10-6 every year for the next 5 years, but never win a playoff game, would you consider them a successful team? um, hell yes. It's hilarious how people try to knock Dalton. He has been more successful than any Bills qb since Jim Kelly. If he doesn't get hurt 2 years ago, the Bengals may win the super bowl and his whole narrative is changed. But it would be awful to make the playoffs every year. Awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 um, hell yes. It's hilarious how people try to knock Dalton. He has been more successful than any Bills qb since Jim Kelly. If he doesn't get hurt 2 years ago, the Bengals may win the super bowl and his whole narrative is changed. But it would be awful to make the playoffs every year. Awful. That's not guaranteed in the scenario I gave. NE* missed the playoffs at 11-5 a few years back. Regardless, I get the feeling you'd change your tune after 2 or so 1 and done years. Then instead of I'd love to make the playoffs it would be I'd love to win a playoff game. My standards are probably too high, especially considering the team I root for, but if my team hasn't won a playoff game in 26 years I do not consider them successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 That's not guaranteed in the scenario I gave. NE* missed the playoffs at 11-5 a few years back. Regardless, I get the feeling you'd change your tune after 2 or so 1 and done years. Then instead of I'd love to make the playoffs it would be I'd love to win a playoff game. My standards are probably too high, especially considering the team I root for, but if my team hasn't won a playoff game in 26 years I do not consider them successful. There are degrees of success. You can't win a Superbowl or playoff game without first making the playoffs. If you ask me if I'd be content with a playoff loss every year, the answer would be no. But make no mistake, I'd take the 99.9% chance of losing in the playoffs every year over never making it. Some teams win on just dumb luck or get streaky or what have you. But you can never, ever, ever get hot/lucky in the playoffs if you're golfing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 It's not 2004. You are just naming guys. Unless you are saying that you already rate Falk and Browning over Trubisky and Mahomes? I would rank Rosen, Darnold and Allen ahead today. Jackson is a total wild card as is Rudolph. On paper, today, it looks like a very strong QB draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 I would rank Rosen, Darnold and Allen ahead today. Jackson is a total wild card as is Rudolph. On paper, today, it looks like a very strong QB draft. Rosen has great arm talent but he has a 5 cent head. He's great if you give him all the weapons and protection. But if things start to go south he will bail. He does not take hits very well and his personality and Buffalo would never work. Darnold looks great but if he stays on the trajectory we never get a chance at him. Jackson? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Rosen has great arm talent but he has a 5 cent head. He's great if you give him all the weapons and protection. But if things start to go south he will bail. He does not take hits very well and his personality and Buffalo would never work. Darnold looks great but if he stays on the trajectory we never get a chance at him. Jackson? No. We all have our feelings. I think most would agree that the 2018 class will grade out higher. It certainly is ahead as of today. I'm not sure that is even debatable. Obviously a lot can happen in a year, Sackenberg and Jevan Snead were once 1st round locks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 We all have our feelings. I think most would agree that the 2018 class will grade out higher. It certainly is ahead as of today. I'm not sure that is even debatable. Obviously a lot can happen in a year, Sackenberg and Jevan Snead were once 1st round locks. That's not the issue. Just because a class is better doesn't mean it will benefit the Bills. Would you pass on Derek Carr in 2014 because 2015 is supposed to be better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 (edited) That's not the issue. Just because a class is better doesn't mean it will benefit the Bills. Would you pass on Derek Carr in 2014 because 2015 is supposed to be better? With the benefit of hindsight? Of course not, but you have to draft looking forward. At the time, I had zero issue passing on Carr and most felt that way. If you would have said "would you rather try to make a run at Jameis or Mariota or take Carr (Bortles, JFF or Bridgewater)" I certainly would have been saying to make your play in 2015. It's like Dak last year. Everyone is mad about Dak now but no one was complaining about it on May 10th. As of today, I don't see a guy at QB worth the 10th pick. Someone will emerge and we will all use hindsight to say "I can't believe the Bills let _____ go." I hope it ends up being like Davis Webb or Josh Dobbs. It is always better when it's a guy that no one talked about and they use hindsight to act like they knew but Whaley & Co. didn't. If I had to guess I would probably say that Mahomes has the highest ceiling, Watson and Trubisky will be average starters. Kizer won't do anything, Peterman stinks as does Webb. I wouldn't at all be surprised though if none of these guys were ever better than Tannehill (or someone like that). Edited April 5, 2017 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 With the benefit of hindsight? Of course not, but you have to draft looking forward. At the time, I had zero issue passing on Carr and most felt that way. It's like Dak last year. Everyone is mad about Dak now but no one was complaining about it on May 10th. As of today, I don't see a guy at QB worth the 10th pick. Someone will emerge and we will all use hindsight to say "I can't believe the Bills let _____ go." I hope it ends up being like Davis Webb or Josh Dobbs. It is always better when it's a guy that no one talked about and they use hindsight to act like they knew but Whaley & Co. didn't. If I had to guess I would probably say that Mahomes has the highest ceiling, Watson and Trubisky will be average starters. Kizer won't do anything, Peterman stinks as does Webb. I wouldn't at all be surprised though if none of these guys were ever better than Tannehill (or someone like that). Ok, that's fine. You just don't like the QB's. I personally like this year better at the top than last year. Mahomes> Wentz and Trubisky > Goff. And the person in my network that sold me on Mahomes had Dak #2 on his board last year over Goff. The Bills are responsible for scouting these QB's. If they fail to do their job they will deserve to be ridiculed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Ok, that's fine. You just don't like the QB's. I personally like this year better at the top than last year. Mahomes> Wentz and Trubisky > Goff. And the person in my network that sold me on Mahomes had Dak #2 on his board last year over Goff. The Bills are responsible for scouting these QB's. If they fail to do their job they will deserve to be ridiculed. I'm not disagreeing with that. Again though, every team passed on Dak multiple times (same with RW). I really hate the MMQBing that people do. I applaud you for going on the record with your guy. Bandit loves the guy and there isn't a person on this board whose opinion I respect more. Mahomes may be a star; he has that potential. He also has a pretty low floor. The Bills IMO shouldn't pull the trigger until they have a clear upgrade. I wouldn't mind them dropping to 25 (as an example) and grabbing a 2018 1st. I am fine building a war chest to strike but I'm not for throwing darts or buying lottery tickets (at least early). That's how I feel about 2017 (and I know that 1 or 2 will probably pan out). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 (edited) Taylor at #21... sounds right. NFL starter, but not a top tier guy. You're welcome to look at YPA, sacks and fumbles too my dude. And GWD's/4QC. 32 out of 32 GM's take Dalton over TT. That makes it insanity, IMO. They do? Link? Luck at 6? Based on what? Ahead of Roethlisberger, Rivers, and Netwon? You can't say longevity and future performance with Brady and Brees at 2 and 3.Newton at 16? I would take him over every other QB except Brady and Rodgers if you are talking about only next year. I would take him over all of them if you are talking for the next 5-10 years. Luck is the most overrated QB in the NFL today. It's ridiculous the slack that guy has been given after having been touted "the greatest prospect since Peyton Manning." No, I'm not saying Luck is a bad QB, I'm saying he's not a great QB, and certainly not an Elite QB. He might be one some day and he'll be given countless opportunities because of where he was drafted in the same way Sam Bradford has been given countless opportunities, but Andrew Luck is really just an above average NFL QB based on what he's done in the NFL. I can't wait for the responses to that one... actually, Tyrod is 14-14. Yeah, Matt Cassel's 1 snap against Indy in 2015 really blew those Colts out of the water! Edited April 6, 2017 by transplantbillsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 I would move Tyrod to 14th on the list. His overall value is better than Flacco, Wentz, Tannehill, Newton, Manning, Bradford and Rivers. Newton, Manning, Rivers ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 (edited) Newton, Manning, Rivers ? I like Tyrod but that's crazy to me. Cam is WAY low on this list. He is top 10 all day. He can dominate a game in a way that VERY few can. Edited April 6, 2017 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Taylor at #21... sounds right. Luck is the most overrated QB in the NFL today. It's ridiculous the slack that guy has been given after having been touted "the greatest prospect since Peyton Manning." No, I'm not saying Luck is a bad QB, I'm saying he's not a great QB, and certainly not an Elite QB. He might be one some day and he'll be given countless opportunities because of where he was drafted in the same way Sam Bradford has been given countless opportunities, but Andrew Luck is really just an above average NFL Amazing take. Luck only threw for 31tds and 4,240 yards last year. I like Tyrod but that's crazy to me. Cam is WAY low on this list. He is top 10 all day. He can dominate a game in a way that VERY few can. 20-24 is his range imo. Personally I'd take Dalton and Smith over him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Taylor at #21... sounds right. NFL starter, but not a top tier guy. They do? Link? Luck is the most overrated QB in the NFL today. It's ridiculous the slack that guy has been given after having been touted "the greatest prospect since Peyton Manning." No, I'm not saying Luck is a bad QB, I'm saying he's not a great QB, and certainly not an Elite QB. He might be one some day and he'll be given countless opportunities because of where he was drafted in the same way Sam Bradford has been given countless opportunities, but Andrew Luck is really just an above average NFL QB based on what he's done in the NFL. I can't wait for the responses to that one... Yeah, Matt Cassel's 1 snap against Indy in 2015 really blew those Colts out of the water! Where do you rank Luck? Also, they don't? Link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Amazing take. Luck only threw for 31tds and 4,240 yards last year. Yes... YARDS!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostbitmic Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Where would guys like Cutler, Kaepernick, and any other FA QB available rank right now ? Where does Cardale Jones rank ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 (edited) Yes... YARDS!!!! You mean Td's ? Don't forget the three 11-5 seasons w playoffs. And don't forget all the excuses you make for #5. Luck good, you on qb's = bad. Edited April 6, 2017 by Ryan L Billz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsInMaine Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Luck is overrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Yes... YARDS!!!! What, passing yards don't matter to you for QB play? or do only Tyrods rushing yards matter when you try and justify him for QB play? Can't have it both ways! Please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Luck is overrated. NFL.com has him at #8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 TT led bills to 7th highest scoring offense .......but deserves none of the credit (sarcasm) despite injuries to sammy, robert woods, cordy glenn, seantrel henerson, eric wood, shady, traded away Hogan had the bills defense given up the 7th least amount of points......nobody would be talking about TT like they are today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 You mean Td's ? Don't forget the three 11-5 seasons w playoffs. And don't forget all the excuses you make for #5. Luck good, you on qb's = bad. I don't think Luck is bad, but you quoted last year's stats. Why not quote last year's win-loss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristocrat Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Just remember guys fc would have Manziel top five on that list. Shows you his qb opinion Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Just remember guys fc would have Manziel top five on that list. Shows you his qb opinion Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Well that's just not true. He's not in my top 100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 I don't think Luck is bad, but you quoted last year's stats. Why not quote last year's win-loss? 3rd worse defense as opposed to 16th No run game or OL setting him up on ez street. Luck was a beast last year, and it's pretty unrefutable. 3rd worse defense as opposed to 16th No run game or OL setting him up on ez street. Luck was a beast last year, and it's pretty unrefutable. Bills coast into playoffs with ease if one replaced Taylor w Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 (edited) I don't think Luck is bad, but you quoted last year's stats. Why not quote last year's win-loss? 8-7 with Luck at QB, but that's a team stat right. Edited April 6, 2017 by old school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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