MikeSpeed Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 If Lynn has his own offense (and he believes it's better) and he is not implementing it, he should be fired right now. If you believe next year Lynn will make whole sale changes to the offense and it will allow Taylor to preform better and he is not doing it now? Then thanks a lot Lynn for not doing everything possible to help us win now. The more logical reason is Taylor is not suited for any other offense than what they are running, and this offense is not good enough win in the NFL and therefore Taylor is not good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 If Lynn has his own offense (and he believes it's better) and he is not implementing it, he should be fired right now. If you believe next year Lynn will make whole sale changes to the offense and it will allow Taylor to preform better and he is not doing it now? Then thanks a lot Lynn for not doing everything possible to help us win now. The more logical reason is Taylor is not suited for any other offense than what they are running, and this offense is not good enough win in the NFL and therefore Taylor is not good enough. Yeah being Top 10 in scoring isnt good enough to win. And to your next point we have yet to be in garbage time in our losses.Within a score and kicking off means no garbage time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) If Lynn has his own offense (and he believes it's better) and he is not implementing it, he should be fired right now. If you believe next year Lynn will make whole sale changes to the offense and it will allow Taylor to preform better and he is not doing it now? Then thanks a lot Lynn for not doing everything possible to help us win now. The more logical reason is Taylor is not suited for any other offense than what they are running, and this offense is not good enough win in the NFL and therefore Taylor is not good enough. You can't install an entirely new offense once the season has begun. You would likely lose a few games early on to stupid mental mistakes because the players don't have the new system down well enough. If Bills had lost a few more games early on, Rex would have most likely already been fired and this season would have been a complete disaster. But you can make adjustments and install a new play here and there. Don't know if they did any of that or not. By the sounds of it - I think they have thrown out some of Roman's plays (adjusted) but not added any new ones - at least they haven't said it if they did. Nobody knows what Lynn's offense would/will look like. We can only guess. But we do know he is a run first guy like Roman and Rex. If you like that sort of thing, then maybe Lynn is your guy. Edited December 22, 2016 by PolishDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 If Lynn has his own offense (and he believes it's better) and he is not implementing it, he should be fired right now. If you believe next year Lynn will make whole sale changes to the offense and it will allow Taylor to preform better and he is not doing it now? Then thanks a lot Lynn for not doing everything possible to help us win now. The more logical reason is Taylor is not suited for any other offense than what they are running, and this offense is not good enough win in the NFL and therefore Taylor is not good enough. You can't just install a brand new offense in week 3 after installing one all offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Which is not to say Taylor isn't flawed. But he's is not the train wreck most make him out to be. Unless it's 4th qtr or two min drill then he's a monster train wreck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Interesting stats Polish Dave. I really don't want to see it all blown up again. Despite his shortcomings, without a couple crappy defensive performances against the jets and phins, the bills would make the playoffs. I'd rather see them find a way to use TT as a transition until they hit on a draft pick. Starting over with some other re-tread will take them 3 steps back and none forward. I hate to say it, but give it all one more year... My view is the offensive approach has limited the passing game by definition. Roman's offenses have always been bottom 5 in passing yards.. so not sure most of this is not on the scheme and less on the QB. TT is not Jim Kelly I get it, but ditching Rex for A Lynn probably fixes both the offense and the defense without blowing everything up. right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 My view is the offensive approach has limited the passing game by definition. Roman's offenses have always been bottom 5 in passing yards.. so not sure most of this is not on the scheme and less on the QB. TT is not Jim Kelly I get it, but ditching Rex for A Lynn probably fixes both the offense and the defense without blowing everything up. right? What makes you think an offense designed by Lynn is going to be much different than Roman or head coached differently than Rex? Just because he is a different dude? He is still a ground and pound guy. Isn't he? And Rex didn't hire him because Lynn thinks so much differently than Rex. Do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 The QBR is not a good measurement. NFL.com stats has Taylor rated 30th. While many want Taylor gone think ahead. You are looking at a schedule that is not going to be at all easy. With Taylor, the offense will be competitive. Since Roman left, the offense has done well. The passing game needs an up grade. Getting the Watkins and the others healthy is a step in the right direction. Add another WR in the draft will help. If you dump Taylor, you can bring in a veteran stop gap type QB. Draft a QB to groom and compete with Cardale Jones. Or start a rookie and take a beating in the standings thus enduring a high draft pick. The team might be in the playoffs in three years. No easy answer. QBR is indeed flawed. But so is the old-fashioned passer rating system used by NFL.com and other sites. Passer rating doesn't account for plays a QB makes with his legs. Maybe, as a rough estimate, you put the two ratings together. TT is rated 30th in one and 12th in the other. Combine them and he's 21st - that sounds about right. I'd like to see a stat that measures how many yards a QB produces - on average - each time he drops back to throw. This would include completed passes, incomplete passes, sacks, and scrambles/runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSpeed Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Yes because the better option is to inhibit the offense by using a plan that got the first OC fired. Nope I'm sorry he had 13 weeks to morph this offense into his offense which includes the bye week and nothing has changed. It looks the same as when he started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) QBR is indeed flawed. But so is the old-fashioned passer rating system used by NFL.com and other sites. Passer rating doesn't account for plays a QB makes with his legs. Maybe, as a rough estimate, you put the two ratings together. TT is rated 30th in one and 12th in the other. Combine them and he's 21st - that sounds about right. I'd like to see a stat that measures how many yards a QB produces - on average - each time he drops back to throw. This would include completed passes, incomplete passes, sacks, and scrambles/runs. The only place I can find on NFL.com where Tyrod is ranked 30th is if you look at passer ratings here. And that 30th ranking is out of 63 because that list includes all QB's that have thrown passes in 2016 including backups. So that puts Taylor just above average. Most people reading this discussion probably think he is ranked 30 out of 32 which he is not. He is ranked 30 out of 63. Big difference there. I know it is not your stat. It is Nitro's. Just wanted to be clear. If I am not looking at the right ranking chart, please let me know. That is all I found. If you look at how the Bills are ranked in passer rating compared to other NFL teams then Tyrod is ranked 21 - and that seems a lot more accurate doesn't it? You ended up with the right answer anyway! Edited December 22, 2016 by PolishDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 91 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 You can't know why without knowing exactly what the play is and how Tyrod is being told to execute it. And NOBODY here knows that. If the coaches thought he was not executing the plays as they are called, then I think they would have sat him (at least for part of a game) and let EJ try to do it. They haven't done that which tells me that they think Tyrod is doing at least okay in what those plays are designed to do. Fans imagine that every NFL passing play is executed like backyard football where the QB drops back and surveys every receiver and chucks the ball to the most open guy. That isn't how it works. That only happens when there is a broken play. And once a play is broken, you can't expect perfect execution. You can't expect a QB to see every open guy in a broken play. Usually the field is cut in half because the qb is out of the pocket and on the run. It is entirely possible and even very likely - that the passing game is too complicated by design or just poorly designed. History suggests it is one of those two or possibly both. No Roman offense has ever had an average or better passing attack. You want a list? Here is a list of all the quarterbacks who couldn't get an effective passing attack going with Roman's offense: Tyrod Taylor EJ Manuel Alex Smith Colin Kaepernick Colt McCoy Blaine Gabbert Troy Smith Scott Tolzien Josh Johnson How many more quarterbacks do you want to rotate through a Roman system and watch fail as a passer before you shift your blame more towards the coach and the design of his system? He couldn't even get lucky and approach average with any of these guys. If Roman was any good at all at designing a passing game, ANY good at all, don't you think he would have found a little success with at least one of those guys? His highest success in passing was getting to rank number 23 in the NFL. Dude's passing offenses fricken suck. It is irrefutable. Yes they do think he is good. But because they believe it doesn't make it true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 What makes you think an offense designed by Lynn is going to be much different than Roman or head coached differently than Rex? Just because he is a different dude? He is still a ground and pound guy. Isn't he? And Rex didn't hire him because Lynn thinks so much differently than Rex. Do you think? Agree. Lynn's background is in running the ball. He played running back. He's coached running backs. Running is pretty much all he knows. Unless he hires a passing game coordinator, I have trouble imagining Lynn developing a potent passing attack. It's just not in his DNA. On the one hand, Roman's QBs are sometimes efficient but rarely highly productive. It's not a surprise that Tyrod isn't throwing for a lot of yards per game. On the other hand, Tyrod has some obvious problems beyond scheme. It's not the fault of Roman's scheme when Tyrod bails early or misses a wide open receiver. None of us know what Lynn's scheme will look like if he's OC again next year. But, given his background, it will probably be run-heavy again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 The only place I can find on NFL.com where Tyrod is ranked 30th is if you look at passer ratings here. And that 30th ranking is out of 63 because that list includes all QB's that have thrown passes in 2016 including backups. So that puts Taylor just above average. Most people reading this discussion probably think he is ranked 30 out of 32 which he is not. He is ranked 30 out of 63. Big difference there. I know it is not your stat. It is Nitro's. Just wanted to be clear. If I am not looking at the right ranking chart, please let me know. That is all I found. If you look at how the Bills are ranked in passer rating compared to other NFL teams then Tyrod is ranked 21 - and that seems a lot more accurate doesn't it? You ended up with the right answer anyway! Why does Alex Smith, Blaine Gabbert and Colin Kaep all have very poor passing games without Roman's offense? I'll hang up and listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) I'd like to see a stat that measures how many yards a QB produces - on average - each time he drops back to throw. This would include completed passes, incomplete passes, sacks, and scrambles/runs. I think the stat you might like is Cold Hard Football Facts "real QBR" which "includes rushing attempts, rushing yards, rushing TDs, fumbles and sacks to produce a new kind of rating that measures a quarterback’s overall performance with the ball, not just as a passer when he actually releases the ball (which is all that passer rating currently measures)" but does not attempt to include all of the squishy "impact on the game" "score on that play relative to potential score" "clutch factor" cloud-of-unknowing stuff that ESPN roles into "total QBR" (in fact CHFF appears to have started their QBR as a reaction to ESPN's fol-der-ol) Currently Buffalo (Taylor) ranks 15th by their metric, having moved up one slot after the Browns game. I think that's about right - not a train wreck, but not top-of-the-league - good enough to win some games with a stout defense. Edited December 22, 2016 by Hapless Bills Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Why does Alex Smith, Blaine Gabbert and Colin Kaep all have very poor passing games without Roman's offense? I'll hang up and listen. Didn't know Alex Smith had a very poor passing game without Roman's offense. Since moving to KC, he's had 3 straight 3000+ yd seasons with an excellent TD/INT ratio of around 3, close to or above 7 AY/A, and looks poised for a 4th season almost that good (TD/INT "fallen off" to 2). I think if we had "very poor passing games" like that in B'lo for the last four years we'd be happier fans. (He's also shown some wheels before this year). Blaine Gabbert was a spread-system QB who never should have been drafted in the 1st round. I think SF was hoping he'd be the next Alex Smith for them (QB where the lightbulb came on in his 6th season) but so far, no sign of that. I have no idea what happened to Kaep. He looked as though he had something, they shipped Smith out of town, he fell apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanNH Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) So I went and checked TT stats on ESPN and this is what I noticed: 1. 28th in passing with no one behind him who has started every game for their team. NOT ONE! 2. Taking his rushing yard and TD and adding that to his passing yards and TD he moves up to 21 in total yards and 17 in touchdowns. (This is WITHOUT adding rushing yards TD for people behind him.) 3. He is also the most sacked QB in the league with 40! So this tells me he is middle of the road for TDs and bottom 3rd for yards THIS YEAR and as a pure passer the stats say he is the WORST every day starter in the league THIS YEAR who also takes a lot of punishment back there. Edited December 22, 2016 by PatsFanNH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zow2 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Currently Buffalo (Taylor) ranks 15th by their metric, having moved up one slot after the Browns game. I think that's about right - not a train wreck, but not top-of-the-league - good enough to win some games with a stout defense. With a stout defense he'd be good enough to win MANY games. I think the team has won 15 games in his starts over two years?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Well taylors job is to get out of the way of McCoy and Gillislee and not mess up. These 25+ points were manufactured by the run game. Taylor averages a td a game. Hardly the QB who carried the team in his back Thank you 6 rushing. He BETTER have the most he is asked to throw too!! I haven't been around here for a couple of days, and the same nonsense is still going on. Tyrod has 20 TD's this season. McCoy has 13. Tyrod has the same amount, or more TD's than: Tannehill Dalton Russell Wilson Siemian Bradford Osweiler Kaep Wentz Alex Smith Fitzpatrick He is within 3 TD's or less of: Flacco Cam Stafford Carson Palmer Tom Brady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanNH Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) I haven't been around here for a couple of days, and the same nonsense is still going on. Tyrod has 20 TD's this season. McCoy has 13. Tyrod has the same amount, or more TD's than: Tannehill Dalton Russell Wilson Siemian Bradford Osweiler Kaep Wentz Alex Smith Fitzpatrick He is within 3 TD's or less of: Flacco Cam Stafford Carson Palmer Tom Brady I stand by my stats before, in a pure passing he is the worst EVERY DAY starting QB, and is the bottom 3rd for yards even when adding his rushing yards. As for TD he is middle of the road he be 20/21 with 20 TD's.. FACT is this YEAR he is a below average passer. Also Blount has 15 TDs this year does that mean he has been better than McCoy? I mean he has more TDs. Edited December 22, 2016 by PatsFanNH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridge Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) Tyrod has the same amount, or more TD's than: Tannehill Dalton Russell Wilson Siemian Bradford Osweiler Kaep Wentz Alex Smith Fitzpatrick Holy crap...it's a who's who of average or overrated QB's. With the exception of Russell, and maybe Wentz there's hardly a QB on that list any team would pine over. He is within 3 TD's or less of: Flacco Cam Stafford Carson Palmer Tom Brady What are you trying to say here? We should be impressed that in 4 more games than Brady, he still only has 3 less touchdowns than him? Absolutely pathetic the lengths we'll go to to pretend someone is something they're not. The mere fact that this conversation is going on tells me he's not the answer, will never be the answer, and we'd be much better off continuing the search for the next guy. Edited December 22, 2016 by fridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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