TOD 8/12: Around the AFCE - Bellicheat - lucky or great?

[BuffaloBill]

Is Bellicheat a great coach or is he a lucky coach because his team stumbled upon the best QB ever selected in the 6th round?

[GunnerBill]

Great.

 

 

Next.....

[downunderbill]

Both, don't think the Pats would have been anywhere near as dominant over the last 15ish years without Tom Brady but his coaching prowess can't be questioned.

[machine gun kelly]

Agreed. Yes, he lucked out on Brady, but he also made Brady better. In addition, it is commonly reported the Patriots change their game plan each week to take away the best players on the opposite side. They are better at it than anyone else.

 

You don't luck your way into the playoffs 15 of 16 years. 6 SB appearances, 4 wins, and I can't even count how many AFC Championship games. Their offense has morphed from 2 TE's to heavy run offense, to 4 Wide sets over the years. Their defense has been successful in both 3-4 and 4-3 sets, and been explosive with regular WR's.

 

Listen, I hate the team, but it's foolish not to think he is the best coach of this era. You can't compare eras as the rules are different, etc., but of this generation, he is the best. To say he's not screams of jealously.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Agreed. Yes, he lucked out on Brady, but he also made Brady better. In addition, it is commonly reported the Patriots change their game plan each week to take away the best players on the opposite side. They are better at it than anyone else.

 

You don't luck your way into the playoffs 15 of 16 years. 6 SB appearances, 4 wins, and I can't even count how many AFC Championship games. Their offense has morphed from 2 TE's to heavy run offense, to 4 Wide sets over the years. Their defense has been successful in both 3-4 and 4-3 sets, and been explosive with regular WR's.

 

Listen, I hate the team, but it's foolish not to think he is the best coach of this era. You can't compare eras as the rules are different, etc., but of this generation, he is the best. To say he's not screams of jealously.

 

his "greatness" is entirely due to tom brady, he was a career loser before tom.

[FireChan]

 

his "greatness" is entirely due to tom brady, he was a career loser before tom.

he really was a loser during that Bills-Giants game.

[Gugny]

Best ever. C Biscuit will come here pointing out that "he sucked" as a HC without Brady.

 

How many legendary HCs in the history of the NFL did not have an elite QB?

 

Answer: Zero

[thebandit27]

Best ever. C Biscuit will come here pointing out that "he sucked" as a HC without Brady.

 

How many legendary HCs in the history of the NFL did not have an elite QB?

 

Answer: Zero

 

Bill Parcells and Joe Gibbs come to mind, but that's about it.

 

To answer the OP: both. He's great, and he's been lucky to have Brady.

[26CornerBlitz]

Best ever. C Biscuit will come here pointing out that "he sucked" as a HC without Brady.

 

How many legendary HCs in the history of the NFL did not have an elite QB?

 

Answer: Zero

 

While he's both great and lucky, he is not TBE. Paul Brown is the best ever.

[Nihilarian]

He is great and Brady became great because he has been in the same system over 18 years. There is something to be said about continuity...if you are winning!

 

The one year Brady was knocked out in the very first game the Patriots started a QB that didn't start a game in college and yet went 11-5. Belichick went to the playoffs in Cleveland with superbum Vinnie Testaverde at QB.

[nucci]

he really was a loser during that Bills-Giants game.

You mean the game where the Bills offense had the ball for 19 minutes, scored 17 points and had 370 yards of offense?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

You mean the game where the Bills offense had the ball for 19 minutes, scored 17 points and had 370 yards of offense?

 

Facts are hard. Let's not also forget his memorable stint in cleveland and pre-brady NE.

[Dorkington]

Definitely both.

[FireChan]

You mean the game where the Bills offense had the ball for 19 minutes, scored 17 points and had 370 yards of offense?

 

 

Facts are hard. Let's not also forget his memorable stint in cleveland and pre-brady NE.

Facts? Let's talk facts. Bills had 18 to the Giants 24 first downs. Bills were 1/8 of third down for the entire game. They got their TOP doubled up by the Giants. Jim Kelly didn't throw a single TD. And of course, the Bills only scored 19 to the Giants' 20 when the Bills offense led the league with 26 PPG.

 

But yeah, BB really sucked that game. Only on TBD would folks act arrogant about a Superbowl they lost.

Edited August 12, 2016 by FireChan

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

 

Facts? Let's talk facts. Bills had 18 to the Giants 24 first downs. Bills were 1/8 of third down for the entire game. They got their TOP doubled up by the Giants. Jim Kelly didn't throw a single TD. And of course, the Bills only scored 19 to the Giants' 20 when the Bills offense led the league with 26 PPG.

 

But yeah, BB really sucked that game. Only on TBD would folks act arrogant about a Superbowl they lost.

 

That SB was on Jim Kelly. Had he fed Thurman the ENTIRE game, it would have been a win. ZERO doubt about that.

 

Explain his genius stints in CLE and NE pre-brady.

 

Go on, I'll wait.

[Thurman#1]

Agreed. Yes, he lucked out on Brady, but he also made Brady better. In addition, it is commonly reported the Patriots change their game plan each week to take away the best players on the opposite side. They are better at it than anyone else.

 

You don't luck your way into the playoffs 15 of 16 years. 6 SB appearances, 4 wins, and I can't even count how many AFC Championship games. Their offense has morphed from 2 TE's to heavy run offense, to 4 Wide sets over the years. Their defense has been successful in both 3-4 and 4-3 sets, and been explosive with regular WR's.

 

Listen, I hate the team, but it's foolish not to think he is the best coach of this era. You can't compare eras as the rules are different, etc., but of this generation, he is the best. To say he's not screams of jealously.

 

 

 

Yup. Both.

 

He does a hell of a job with the defense and their multifaceted system. And his draft trades and consistent methods for stockpiling extra choices are flat-out smart.

 

But without Brady he wouldn't have had nearly the success he had. Likely the same is true of Brady if he hadn't had Belichick, though.

[Ronin]

Is Bellicheat a great coach or is he a lucky coach because his team stumbled upon the best QB ever selected in the 6th round?

 

A somewhat subjective question, however, here are some facts to consider prior to determining one's answer/thought in the matter:

 

Brady was a 6th round draft selection. Belicheat did not put in Brady over Bledsoe by choice. The implication here is that he didn't see anything particular in Brady.

 

Belicheat was 5-13 with the Pats while Bledsoe was under center. He's been 15-19 with anyone but Brady under center there and no playoff appearances.

 

Some say that he made this argument obsolete by going 10-6 in 2008 with Cassel under center. But consider, the Pats beat no team of consequence in the regular season that year, (my opinion), missed the playoffs (fact), and had the easiest schedule in the league that year. (fact)

 

With Cleveland Belicheat was 36-44 with only one Jauron-like playoff appearance, and frankly, with a performance there a carbon copy of Jauron's 35-45 in his five seasons in Chicago.

 

In Cleveland, with Testeverde as his starter for 3 of the 5 seasons there, the most he could get from Testeverde was a below average 17 TDs/10 INTs, worse in the other two seasons, despite having top receiving talent in Michael Jackson, Keenan McCardell, Andre Rison, and one of the best receiving backs in the league at the time in Ernest Byner.

 

The very next season in Baltimore, Ted Marchibroda, whose head coaching record in the '90s was horrendous, got 33 TDs/19 INTs from Testverde with similar talent.

 

Two seasons later on the Jets, under Parcells, whom many claim Belicheat is better than, Testerverde had his best season ever with comparable talent and posted 29 TDs/7 INTs with Testeverde at the age of 35.

 

Belicheat is supposed to be a defensive guru, and there's no mistaking it, he was as a DC. But as a head coach it can easily be argued that he's uncerachieved with the talent he's had.

 

When he had top-notch defensive talent in the early aught years his defenses ranked 17th, 6th, 17th, 1st, 2nd, 17th, 2nd, and 4th in scoring and 20th, 24th, 23rd, 7th, 9th, 26th, 6th, and 4th in yardage thru 2007.

 

Since 2008 his defenses have ranked 8th, 5th, 8th, 15th, 9th, 10, 8th, and 10th in scoring D, and 10th, 11th, 25th, 31st, 25th, 26th, 13th, 9th in yardage.

 

For comparison purposes, Parcells' Ds in NY ranked 16th, 8th, 5th, 2nd, 13th, 9th, 2nd, 1st in scoring, and 5th, 11th, 2nd, 2nd, 7th, 11th, 5th, 2nd in yardage. With a fraction of the talent that Belicheat has had recently, Parcells in NE had his Ds perform about the same as Belicheat's have over the last five seasons.

 

Belicheat and his Pats have, verifiably, been in the easiest division in football hands-down during the Brady era. Not only has there not been a bona fide decent QB on any of the other three teams, playoff appearances by them have been rare and short-lived.

 

The Bills have not made the playoffs during the Brady era.

The Jets have made it 6 times on notably lesser talent and with QBs Testeverde at the age of 38, Pennington, and Mark Sanchez twice. The Jets are 6-6 in the playoffs during that interval.

The Fins have made the playoffs twice during that time span with Fiedler and Pennington and are 0-2 in the playoffs during the Brady era.

 

It should be noted that the Pennington-led offense without any notable WRs whatsoever, comparable to what we are w/o Watkins now, won the division in 2008 over a Cassel-led Pats despite the Pats having had the easiest schedule in the entire league that season.

 

Those are the facts with the couple of noted opinions.

You don't luck your way into the playoffs 15 of 16 years. 6 SB appearances, 4 wins, and I can't even count how many AFC Championship games.

 

Having three QB-less teams in your division that typically wouldn't have a shot at the playoffs even if they were in any other division doesn't hurt either.

 

No one seems to ever factor that in.

 

How would the Saints be perceived if they had been in our division since 2001? Or the Ravens, or any other number of fairly decent yet not "Pats-like" teams during that era?

 

How would the Pats have fared in a tougher division, say the NFCN for example during the Brady era?

Yup. Both.

 

He does a hell of a job with the defense and their multifaceted system. And his draft trades and consistent methods for stockpiling extra choices are flat-out smart.

 

But without Brady he wouldn't have had nearly the success he had. Likely the same is true of Brady if he hadn't had Belichick, though.

 

How do you know this about Brady? What's Belicheat's track record with other QBs? HINT: The short answer is subpar

 

What's your basis for those comments on the D? Pure opinion?

 

Facts? Let's talk facts. Bills had 18 to the Giants 24 first downs. Bills were 1/8 of third down for the entire game. They got their TOP doubled up by the Giants. Jim Kelly didn't throw a single TD. And of course, the Bills only scored 19 to the Giants' 20 when the Bills offense led the league with 26 PPG.

 

But yeah, BB really sucked that game. Only on TBD would folks act arrogant about a Superbowl they lost.

 

Agree, and Levy was sorely outcoached in that game as well as in the other three SBs.

 

Nevertheless, look at the talent that Belicheat had? He had four of his defensive starters make the Pro Bowl. LT alone is enough to swing games.

 

It's a difficult argument to suggest that he overachieved with that unit and collection of talent in the same manner that it's a difficult argument to suggest the Ryan overachieved in Baltimore and Ray Lewis and Ed Reed among many other exceptional defenders on a similar unit.

Edited August 12, 2016 by TaskersGhost

[Thurman#1]

He is great and Brady became great because he has been in the same system over 18 years. There is something to be said about continuity...if you are winning!

 

The one year Brady was knocked out in the very first game the Patriots started a QB that didn't start a game in college and yet went 11-5. Belichick went to the playoffs in Cleveland with superbum Vinnie Testaverde at QB.

 

 

 

They went 11-5 against an extremely easy schedule. So easy that the Dolphins, playing a slightly tougher schedule in that they played the Pats instead of themselves also went 11-5. Worth noting that the year before that the Fins went 1-15 and the year after went 7-9.

 

The three divisions the AFC East played that year were the AFC West, the NFC West and of course the games against AFC East rivals, Those were three really weak divisions that year.

 

AFC West: Chargers 8-8, Broncos 8-8, Raiders 5-11, and Chiefs 2-14

NFC West: Cards 9-7, 9ers 7-9, Seahawks 4-12 and Rams 2-14

 

The wins the teams in those three divisions got that year were pretty much all a result of playing the other crappy teams in those three divisions.

 

Not counting the Fins - and I don't - the Pats played two good teams that year, the 12-4 Steelers and the 12-4 Colts, and lost to both.

 

They got very lucky with the schedule that year.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

 

 

 

They went 11-5 against an extremely easy schedule. So easy that the Dolphins, playing a slightly tougher schedule in that they played the Pats instead of themselves also went 11-5. Worth noting that the year before that the Fins went 1-15 and the year after went 7-9.

 

The three divisions the AFC East played that year were the AFC West, the NFC West and of course the games against AFC East rivals, Those were three really weak divisions that year.

 

AFC West: Chargers 8-8, Broncos 8-8, Raiders 5-11, and Chiefs 2-14

NFC West: Cards 9-7, 9ers 7-9, Seahawks 4-12 and Rams 2-14

 

The wins the teams in those three divisions got that year were pretty much all a result of playing the other crappy teams in those three divisions.

 

Not counting the Fins - and I don't - the Pats played two good teams that year, the 12-4 Steelers and the 12-4 Colts, and lost to both.

 

They got very lucky with the schedule that year.

 

And how did our sad-sack franchise do that same year?

 

Even in easy schedule years, it's hard for the Bills to win in the NFL.

[nucci]

 

That SB was on Jim Kelly. Had he fed Thurman the ENTIRE game, it would have been a win. ZERO doubt about that.

 

Explain his genius stints in CLE and NE pre-brady.

 

Go on, I'll wait.

I think it was more on the defense....plus a missed FG at the end but not trying to start another debate or argument