Captain Hindsight Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 My guess is that is Fitz and the Jets will sign a deal when camp gets closer or at the beginning of it. 0 chance they don't get this done. They remind me of the crazy married couple. They need each other and no one else wants em. I actually think its possible Fitz doesn't sign. He's a man of principle and I doubt he needs the money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 This just illustrates my point that you are being irrational about the value of winning. Their circumstance dictates that it is worth riding Fitz for one last time But I guess it's only worth $12M for a QB for one season if the team wins the SB. In a business where losing leads to huge financial loss.......fired coaches.....dead money from personnel change necessitated by regime change.....then overpaying for replacements...........well, paying $12M for one year for a QB who has shown he can produce and get you 10 wins.....a solid, winning season......with your existing personnel..........is at the very LEAST a reasonable financial decision. You are living in your own fictitious bubble of reality and expect everyone else to react as if they are also in the same bubble. It's time for you to wake up and start thinking as if you are awake. It's difficult to be alert when you are still slumbering. The circumstance that the Jets are in certainly dictate Fitz's worth. That's the point that you and others are missing. They have a qb that no other team is interested in and whose talent level is second rate. He is from a talent standpoint a career backup talent. He is as pedestrian as you can get. Now you are exhorting a cap stretched team to pay him at what he is not worth and would result in them jettisoning talented players on their roster to accommodate a middling qb. And you have the audacity to accuse others of being irrational! I have repeatedly made the point that you and others refuse to acknowledge that the stats that Fitz garnered last year doesn't represent his standard. It is an aberration. Yet you and others continue to use those non-representative stats as your baseline for negotiation. I'm not falling into that glaring trap, and neither are the Jets. The Jets have known since they acquired Fitz that after the season his contract was up. They are not acting without forethought and they are not acting out of impulse. They made a calculation that included his talent level and his value on the market (zero) and placed a value on him. You may deem the offer as being unfair but the Jets apparently don't. That's what counts. If you can't handle the unsentimental world of the pro business then turn off the alarm clock and go back to snoozing and let the real world pass you by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 ...or only one other team (Denver) is a fit. There aren't 32 teams competing for him (or any QB). You made the point there for yourself Kirby. There's 31 teams right now, that by all appearances, believe that their current starting quarterback is better than Fitzpatrick. The 32nd team that we're talking about appears to not value him high enough, and instead are going with last year's backup. As for teams "competing" for him, there's been plenty of QB's that have already found homes with new teams (Osweiler, Daniel, RG3, Cassel) and QB's that have stuck on with the teams they were already with (Weeden, McCown, Gradkowski, Orlovsky, Moore) even as backups in free agency. There's not a soul that believes he's worth starting quarterback money, and the market is speaking to that fact. Cassel was lucky to have a good year at the beginning of his career. Too bad for Fitzpatrick that he had his best after 10 years of middling. Your continued hype of this journeyman middler has gone from mildly amusing to hysterical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 You made the point there for yourself Kirby. There's 31 teams right now, that by all appearances, believe that their current starting quarterback is better than Fitzpatrick. The 32nd team that we're talking about appears to not value him high enough, and instead are going with last year's backup. As for teams "competing" for him, there's been plenty of QB's that have already found homes with new teams (Osweiler, Daniel, RG3, Cassel) and QB's that have stuck on with the teams they were already with (Weeden, McCown, Gradkowski, Orlovsky, Moore) even as backups in free agency. There's not a soul that believes he's worth starting quarterback money, and the market is speaking to that fact. Cassel was lucky to have a good year at the beginning of his career. Too bad for Fitzpatrick that he had his best after 10 years of middling. Your continued hype of this journeyman middler has gone from mildly amusing to hysterical. The problem for the Jest is that this middler had a franchise record breaking year at QB while leading them to 10 wins. Fitz's $12m, one year counter offer is more than fair in that context. It's below average for a starting QB in the league, let alone one coming off a record year. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) The reason that the Broncos aren't in on Fitz is because they think that Sanchez can provide the level of play that Manning did for $4.5M (or whatever it is). They knew Fitz was $12M. You are on an island though in not thinking that Fitz is a $12M QB. That would put him as the 23rd highest paid QB with 6 other starting QBs on rookie deals. $12M isn't "the middle of the league" it's near the bottom. He was 15th in yards, tied for 10th in TDs and won 10 games. $12M would put him at 29th or so. The island I am inhabiting is the same island that the Jets are on. What the Jets are demonstrating is that when you own the island you establish the rent. If the customer is not satisfied then he has the right to pursue his other options. In this case there are no other options because the doors are firmly closed from the rest of the community. Not only is there no interest from the rest of the market but everyone knows it. So Fitz and his agent can't even fake that there is an interest in him. You are on an island though in not thinking that Fitz is a $12M QB . Fitz is not a $12M qb and never will be!. He being paid that amount of money is an absurdity. Even country Buddy understood the relationship between value to talent. When he had Fitz under contract he wanted some of his money back as a condition of keeping him on the roster. Edited June 14, 2016 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 The problem for the Jest is that this middler had a franchise record breaking year at QB while leading them to 10 wins. Fitz's $12m, one year counter offer is more than fair in that context. It's below average for a starting QB in the league, let alone one coming off a record year. GO BILLS!!! There's the problem though. One year. Fitzpatrick doesn't want a one year deal for $12m and won't accept it. At the end of the day, Fitzpatrick isn't the reason the Jets would get to the playoffs or god forbid, to the Superbowl. If THEY believed that to be the case, they would have already signed him. So.....we're left with fan fabrication of his worth. Talking about his TD's or the Jets team wins of last season does nothing and adds nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 JohnC is arguing a pure play value argument. The name is irrelevant. Fitz's play value is not what he wants... the name is never irrelevant as you can clearly see with the negotiations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 The island I am inhabiting is the same island that the Jets are on. What the Jets are demonstrating is that when you own the island you establish the rent. If the customer is not satisfied then he has the right to pursue his other options. In this case there are no other options because the doors are firmly closed from the rest of the community. Not only is there no interest from the rest of the market but everyone knows it. So Fitz and his agent can't even fake that there is an interest in him. . Fitz is not a $12M qb and never will be!. He being paid that amount of money is an absurdity. Even country Buddy understood the relationship between value to talent. When he had Fitz under contract he wanted some of his money back as a condition of keeping him on the roster. Is Foles a $12.25M QB? Is Kaepernick a $19M QB? Is Osweiler an $18M QB? Is Tannehill a $19.25M QB? IS Bradford a $17.5M QB? Is Kirk Cousins a $19.953M QB? The answer to all of those is YES. Those are the average salaries of each of those QBs. Only Cousins was better than Fitz last year. It is CRAZY to argue that he is worth half of those guys. The market has been established. Fitz at $12M will be a bargain. The Jets aren't getting him at $8M. The Jets have also thrown a grenade on future FA negotiations. You keep going back to leverage. Fitz has the leverage!! He can elect to sit on his couch. The Jets HAVE to play someone at QB. They are going to run Geno Smith out there now. They are not fooling anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Is Foles a $12.25M QB? Is Kaepernick a $19M QB? Is Osweiler an $18M QB? Is Tannehill a $19.25M QB? IS Bradford a $17.5M QB? Is Kirk Cousins a $19.953M QB? The answer to all of those is YES. Those are the average salaries of each of those QBs. Only Cousins was better than Fitz last year. It is CRAZY to argue that he is worth half of those guys. The market has been established. Fitz at $12M will be a bargain. The Jets aren't getting him at $8M. The Jets have also thrown a grenade on future FA negotiations. You keep going back to leverage. Fitz has the leverage!! He can elect to sit on his couch. The Jets HAVE to play someone at QB. They are going to run Geno Smith out there now. They are not fooling anyone. So that shows Fitz isn't worth the money since all those guys are much younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 You made the point there for yourself Kirby. There's 31 teams right now, that by all appearances, believe that their current starting quarterback is better than Fitzpatrick. The 32nd team that we're talking about appears to not value him high enough, and instead are going with last year's backup. As for teams "competing" for him, there's been plenty of QB's that have already found homes with new teams (Osweiler, Daniel, RG3, Cassel) and QB's that have stuck on with the teams they were already with (Weeden, McCown, Gradkowski, Orlovsky, Moore) even as backups in free agency. There's not a soul that believes he's worth starting quarterback money, and the market is speaking to that fact. Cassel was lucky to have a good year at the beginning of his career. Too bad for Fitzpatrick that he had his best after 10 years of middling. Your continued hype of this journeyman middler has gone from mildly amusing to hysterical. No, the point that I made is that 32 teams don't compete for a QB. If Russell Wilson hit the market tomorrow there wouldn't be 32 teams vying for him. Teams are restricted by the cap. The 49ers (for example) would love to have Fitz. They cant afford him. The same goes for Denver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 No, the point that I made is that 32 teams don't compete for a QB. If Russell Wilson hit the market tomorrow there wouldn't be 32 teams vying for him. Teams are restricted by the cap. The 49ers (for example) would love to have Fitz. They cant afford him. The same goes for Denver. Not that they can't afford him, every team can make space. They just know his value isn't what he thinks it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 So that shows Fitz isn't worth the money since all those guys are much younger. So Foles being younger means he deserves $4M more a year? I don't understand the point? One guy threw 31 TDs & 15 INTs while winning 10 games, the other threw 7 TDS, and 10 INTs before losing his job to Case Keenum. Not that they can't afford him, every team can make space. They just know his value isn't what he thinks it is. The 49ers would take $7.4M+ in dead space by cutting Kapernick. If you add in Fitz at $12M (for 1 year), you are talking a $19.5M cap hit. He is not worth that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) So Foles being younger means he deserves $4M more a year? I don't understand the point? One guy threw 31 TDs & 15 INTs while winning 10 games, the other threw 7 TDS, and 10 INTs before losing his job to Case Keenum.Yea being younger shows you still have a chance to improve. Being Fitz shows you had one good year out of a career and still couldn't do the job when needed most. He is getting to the age where the position starts to break down and obviously he won't be as good as his best year going forward. Younger guys have a chance to still get their best. Took him how many years just to have one good year that still didn't produce playoffs. Edited June 14, 2016 by Beef Jerky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 The Jets did the right thing by not signing Fitz. They did the wrong thing having geno as their backup plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 There's the problem though. One year. Fitzpatrick doesn't want a one year deal for $12m and won't accept it. At the end of the day, Fitzpatrick isn't the reason the Jets would get to the playoffs or god forbid, to the Superbowl. If THEY believed that to be the case, they would have already signed him. So.....we're left with fan fabrication of his worth. Talking about his TD's or the Jets team wins of last season does nothing and adds nothing. That was Fitz's counter offer to the Jest three year proposal. He not only wanted it, he proposed it. GO BILLS!!! There's the problem though. One year. Fitzpatrick doesn't want a one year deal for $12m and won't accept it. At the end of the day, Fitzpatrick isn't the reason the Jets would get to the playoffs or god forbid, to the Superbowl. If THEY believed that to be the case, they would have already signed him. So.....we're left with fan fabrication of his worth. Talking about his TD's or the Jets team wins of last season does nothing and adds nothing. I really don't give a crap one way or the other. I'm not in this to "add" anything other than I can fully understand where Fitz is coming from. He's demonstrated in the past he is a man of principle and is doing so again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) That was Fitz's counter offer to the Jest three year proposal. He not only wanted it, he proposed it. GO BILLS!!! Yea but he isn't worth that even for one year. Then after they don't make the playoffs again the Jets are screwed b.c Fitz would lead them to a record that doesn't allow them to draft a good QB. Edited June 14, 2016 by Beef Jerky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Yea but he isn't worth that even for one year. Then after they don't make the playoffs again the Jets are screwed b.c Fitz would lead them to a record that doesn't allow them to draft a good QB. I'm not going to get into what anybody thinks he's "worth". It's a meaningless term, especially in the context of the list of QB salaries Kirby Jackson posted above. It only matters what Fitz thinks he's worth. He's made it pretty clear he's worth $12m for one year. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 In the I'm not going to get into what anybody thinks he's "worth". It's a meaningless term, especially in the context of the list of QB salaries Kirby Jackson posted above. It only matters what Fitz thinks he's worth. He's made it pretty clear he's worth $12m for one year. GO BILLS!!! No he didn't... not at that age. We all want the Jets to overpay Fitz but they are actually being smart for once. They realize that even at Fitz's best fluke season he still reverted back to his bad self when needed most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 No, the point that I made is that 32 teams don't compete for a QB. If Russell Wilson hit the market tomorrow there wouldn't be 32 teams vying for him. Teams are restricted by the cap. The 49ers (for example) would love to have Fitz. They cant afford him. The same goes for Denver. Not that they can't afford him, every team can make space. They just know his value isn't what he thinks it is. I think two things are at play with Fitz: 1) It's not his age so much as it is that everyone knows that he's hit his ceiling. There's no upside. He's a bottom tier starting QB or a really good backup. The other overpaid QBs mentioned either got paid based on expectations (or mostly unjustified hope) that they'd improve and be worth it. Kaep was a weird case of getting paid large this season due to an injury guarantee. 2) He's in no hurry. Nor should he be. This is likely to drag on until the start of TC. Fitz is the Jets best option and there's not likely to be a better one come along before the season starts. But his situation could improve at some point. Some QB for some contender is going to get injured sooner or later. Or maybe Elway will see Sanchez play football. Either way he might wind up with another option that's much better from a ring chasing standpoint and still pretty comparable from a money one. I look at Denver and can't help but to think that they're just trying to get through this season with some chance at a repeat while biding their time. Notably, Brees looks like he'll be a free agent next season and I could see him chasing another SB in Denver while they see what Lynch is worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) Is Foles a $12.25M QB? Is Kaepernick a $19M QB? Is Osweiler an $18M QB? Is Tannehill a $19.25M QB? IS Bradford a $17.5M QB? Is Kirk Cousins a $19.953M QB? The answer to all of those is YES. Those are the average salaries of each of those QBs. Only Cousins was better than Fitz last year. It is CRAZY to argue that he is worth half of those guys. The market has been established. Fitz at $12M will be a bargain. The Jets aren't getting him at $8M. The Jets have also thrown a grenade on future FA negotiations. You keep going back to leverage. Fitz has the leverage!! He can elect to sit on his couch. The Jets HAVE to play someone at QB. They are going to run Geno Smith out there now. They are not fooling anyone. You are misconstruing my central point in this discussion. Leverage is not the primary issue for me. I simply don't consider Fitz to be a starting caliber qb. It's as simple as that. To me Fitz is an adequate backup caliber of qb. In your first paragraph with qbs and salaries you are using them to make a point of relativity. You are actually making the opposite point of the perils of over-paying relative to performance. In the examples you cite those qbs were able to garner rich contracts based on potential. That is not the case with Fitz. He has been in the league for around a decade. He is what he is, and he is what he will forever be: an adequate backup talent. The teams you cited took calculated risks and made projections on their qbs. That is not the case in NY. He can elect to sit on his couch. The Jets HAVE to play someone at QB. They are going to run Geno Smith out there now. They are not fooling anyone. If Fitz wants to sit out then so be it. That's his prerogative. Are the Jets acting like they are being held hostage? Have the Jets budged from their stance? Again, I'm sure you are tired of me repeating myself but the stats that Fitz earned last year represent little to me and apparently to the Jets because they are not using those numbers as a baseline for a qb who has been wretchedly mediocre for a decade. His body of work speaks for itself. Why do you think he has been a vagabond qb? The Jets have made a decision on how they value Fitz and they are holding to it. They are negotiating with him or posturing. There position is established and they are not wavering. You keep insisting that if they maintain their position their actions will be self-defeating. They don't see it that way. I understand their position and I agree with it. It's not about what I think it is about what the Jets think and are doing. Their behavior is a testament to how they view this pedestrian qb. Edited June 14, 2016 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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