Deranged Rhino Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 in the clutch when trying to put the game on his back he fails. ...And he fails by forcing mistakes which is exactly the opposite of what you said. I'm just trying to track your logic. There's no scenario, barring injury, where Fitz would start over Bortles or Winston. None. Both have higher ceilings, and Bortles is better than Fitz now (Winston isn't, but Tampa would never derail his development). Fitz's only chance to start is in NY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 A qb can be a starter and still not be a starting caliber qb for a team. Now we're getting into magical franchise QB mystery land. Remember all the debates we had a few years back about who was and who wasn't a franchise QB? It turned out everyone had a somewhat different definition of franchise QB, ranging from starter to "can carry the team on his back sometimes" to magical mystery makes the team good all on his own dude. If a guy can start a season, be wanted back to start another season, but that doesn't make him a starting caliber QB, we're getting into "franchise guy" territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Now we're getting into magical franchise QB mystery land. Remember all the debates we had a few years back about who was and who wasn't a franchise QB? It turned out everyone had a somewhat different definition of franchise QB, ranging from starter to "can carry the team on his back sometimes" to magical mystery makes the team good all on his own dude. If a guy can start a season, be wanted back to start another season, but that doesn't make him a starting caliber QB, we're getting into "franchise guy" territory. The NFL is a system predicated on value. It isn't only about who starts or doesn't, it is about worth/cost$$$ relative to talent. Do I need to remind you that we let Fitz leave because we weren't going to keep him at a certain price level even as a starter. There is nothing new about the process, every team works within the same system. The Broncos needed a starter after Peyton retired. They ascribed a value to Osweiller that they were not willing to cross. So Osweiller found a team that was willing to pay the price. Was signing Sanchez at a much cheaper price a good value response to the departure of Osweiller? In their calculation it was, at least for now. They then moved up in the draft to sign a good qb prospect. There is no doubt that the Jets contract offerings were due to cap considerations. But where I separate myself from your perspective on this issue that their contract position is more attributable to how they evaluate his talent level. Another factor in supporting the team's position is that there isn't much appetite for this very smart but limited qb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) A qb can be a starter and still not be a starting caliber qb for a team. Fitz is what he always has been i.e. a good backup who has started for a number of teams that then let him go. He has played for six teams with Buffalo being the only team that kept him for more than two years. Will the Jets up their paltry offer to him? Probably so. But Fitz is not going to get a contract that he believes he is worth. I'll repeat what I have said on other postings: No other team is interested in Fitz as a starting qb, even if it is as a bridge qb. If you think otherwise then tell me which team is interested in him? Or you could go back and read my threads. As I said, the market is the Jets and their unimaginably bad QB roster without Fitz. And the Jets have been free to replace Fitz as the veteran "bridge" QB, yet they have rejected each guy who has come through. As for the term "starting QB", I'm not sure how else to walk you through its pretty straightforward definition. And hey, Revis has played for a ton of teams and the Jets are the only ones who kept him for more than 2 years. He must be a backup quality CB then. He can think what he wants. If he hadn't **** the bed against the Bills last year and they'd made the playoffs, he'd be able to dictate terms. But despite a career year, he couldn't close the deal, and don't think the Jets didn't take notice of it. So they drafted a guy and will look to groom him, even if it means taking a step back this year. And again, they need to clear at least $6.5M in cap room just to give him the 1-year $3.25M deal he got last year, much less a 3-year deal averaging $10M/year. Ahh...back to the ever elusive "groomed QB", of course! There a long and proud tradition of great NFL QBs highly drafted to be "groomed" for a few years before they are ripe for the "franchise". And now the Jets have 3 of such QBs! It's a regular barber shop over there in the Meadowlands, what with all the grooming going on. No empty chairs! And speaking of cap room, the Jets should just dump Revis again. They would save a ton of money and he's about to fall off the cliff anyway, or get injured, or both. They certainly aren't going to lose more games because he's not playing next year. Edited May 2, 2016 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Ahh...back to the ever elusive "groomed QB", of course! There a long and proud tradition of great NFL QBs highly drafted to be "groomed" for a few years before they are ripe for the "franchise". And now the Jets have 3 of such QBs! It's a regular barber shop over there in the Meadowlands, what with all the grooming going on. No empty chairs! And speaking of cap room, the Jets should just dump Revis again. They would save a ton of money and he's about to fall off the cliff anyway, or get injured, or both. They certainly aren't going to lose more games because he's not playing next year. So...the Jets shouldn't groom Hack and go with a guy who basically took 11 years to "groom," yet who ended up failing at the worst possible time? And at a price tag of $10M? I'm not high on Hack myself, but I don't have a crystal ball to tell me he won't succeed. Whereas I've seen enough of Fitz to know what he is and ever will be. The Jets can't dump Revis. They would take a 6M cap hit. Should have kept him originally, like Rex wanted to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) So...the Jets shouldn't groom Hack and go with a guy who basically took 11 years to "groom," yet who ended up failing at the worst possible time? And at a price tag of $10M? I'm not high on Hack myself, but I don't have a crystal ball to tell me he won't succeed. Whereas I've seen enough of Fitz to know what he is and ever will be. The Jets can't dump Revis. They would take a 6M cap hit. Should have kept him originally, like Rex wanted to do. I'm sure you "knew" Fitz would never go 10-5 before 2015. Or you "knew" he'd never break franchise QB records. Edited May 2, 2016 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 ...And he fails by forcing mistakes which is exactly the opposite of what you said. I'm just trying to track your logic. There's no scenario, barring injury, where Fitz would start over Bortles or Winston. None. Both have higher ceilings, and Bortles is better than Fitz now (Winston isn't, but Tampa would never derail his development). Fitz's only chance to start is in NY. Dunno about that. What is to sctop him from waiting and seeing which other team loses their QB to injury? There'll be some desperate team with a shot at the playoffs that'll need him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) So...the Jets shouldn't groom Hack and go with a guy who basically took 11 years to "groom," yet who ended up failing at the worst possible time? And at a price tag of $10M? I'm not high on Hack myself, but I don't have a crystal ball to tell me he won't succeed. Whereas I've seen enough of Fitz to know what he is and ever will be. The Jets can't dump Revis. They would take a 6M cap hit. Should have kept him originally, like Rex wanted to do. They should never signed Revis to this crazy deal. As for "The Hack", the point was that no one really grooms QBs in the NFL. You are suggesting that the Jets basically play crappy football with Geno Smith at QB (or...who?) for a few years to see if Hackenberg doesn't actually suck. Why is that a good plan? Why is it better than paying the guy who is likely to do the grooming like a starter for a few years. Why should Fitz be the only QB you would penalize for choking on the verge of a playoff birth? Edited May 2, 2016 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Dunno about that. What is to sctop him from waiting and seeing which other team loses their QB to injury? There'll be some desperate team with a shot at the playoffs that'll need him. If you need a QB to get you to the playoffs, I don't necessarily think you look to the 10-year vet who has never made it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 The NFL is a system predicated on value. It isn't only about who starts or doesn't, it is about worth/cost$$$ relative to talent. Do I need to remind you that we let Fitz leave because we weren't going to keep him at a certain price level even as a starter. I don't quite know where to start here. I guess you do need to remind me "that we let Fitz leave because we weren't going to keep him at a certain price level even as a starter" because Nix was taped and published saying that Fitz was getting too much money for a backup: "We just can't afford to pay that kind of money for a guy who's fighting for probably a backup job." There was a coaching change, an offensive system change to a system with totally different terminology than Fitz had played in, and quite probably a talent evaluation mistake ("worth" in your words) putting a higher value on the talents of TJax and Kolb, as factors. Second, the NFL is a system predicated on a lot of things, but any sort of uniform correlation of worth/cost relative to talent is certainly not one of them. All over the league, we have guys on their first contracts getting paid a fraction of what FAs arguably in the declining years of their production earn. The rookies get paid peanuts, the stars get paid 10s of millions, and the "middle class" gets squeezed out by the salary cap. Do you honestly believe giving Fitz the same contract as Chase Daniel is any sort of "worth/$$ relative to talent" (or value to the team) metric? Or giving Osweilier the contract he received? Houston overpaid for Osweiler not because that was any sort of fair worth/price evaluation but because the HC O'Brien replaced just won the superbowl, the QB O'Brien traded away played to a better record, and if O'Brien doesn't snap the 9-7 doldrums of the last 2 years he's likely to be done so he rolled the dice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Dunno about that. What is to sctop him from waiting and seeing which other team loses their QB to injury? There'll be some desperate team with a shot at the playoffs that'll need him. Sure, if a QB goes down Fitz will be a hot ticket. I was speaking about the present though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 @domcosentino Maccagnan, on if Ryan Fitzpatrick doesn't re-sign: "We're excited to see what Geno Smith can do coming back." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 @domcosentino Maccagnan, on if Ryan Fitzpatrick doesn't re-sign: "We're excited to see what Geno Smith can do coming back." So is the rest of the AFC East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 So is the rest of the AFC East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 @domcosentino Maccagnan, on if Ryan Fitzpatrick doesn't re-sign: "We're excited to see what Geno Smith can do coming back." See? Woody Johnson isn't the dumbest guy in that crew afterall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 That's not really true at all -- it was all on the refs. That atrocious, atrocious call on Robey cost the Bills the game. Nahhh, it was all EJ's fault that they let Blake #$%^ing Bortles drive 80 yards for the win. No actually that referee was EJ in disguise and he took over the mike from the defense player caller as well so it is fault. EJ has a bad quarter and three good ones; leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I'm sure you "knew" Fitz would never go 10-5 before 2015. Or you "knew" he'd never break franchise QB records. I "knew" he'd never take a team to the playoffs. Because, well, we just saw why. They should never signed Revis to this crazy deal. As for "The Hack", the point was that no one really grooms QBs in the NFL. You are suggesting that the Jets basically play crappy football with Geno Smith at QB (or...who?) for a few years to see if Hackenberg doesn't actually suck. Why is that a good plan? Why is it better than paying the guy who is likely to do the grooming like a starter for a few years. Why should Fitz be the only QB you would penalize for choking on the verge of a playoff birth? As I said, they should have signed Revis 4 years ago to the deal he wanted. Would have gotten him in his prime, a lot cheaper, and been able to dump him now. What do you mean no one grooms QB's anymore? The Eagles are looking to groom Wentz for a year at least under Bradford. The Broncos are looking to do the same with Lynch under Sanchez. The Rams...well, they'll probably start Goff because he was the first overall pick and have no one better. The Cheaters were grooming Mallett and then Garrrrooopppooolllo and now Brissett. But what are you trying to say? That the Jets should start Hack this coming season, if "no one grooms QBs anymore"? So why sign/pay Fitz at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I "knew" he'd never take a team to the playoffs. Because, well, we just saw why. If you were honest with yourself, you'd say that Fitz confounded at least some of your expectations last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 they'd not have to install him as a starter. he'd not make it due to logic - you'd go with youth if you can. but he'd be an upgrade to both teams qb position should he start. corn liquor has started to eat your brains Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 The only time Fitz should call his shot is when he's at the bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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