Whaley: Does not see need for overhaul on D

[klos63]

No.

 

Playing the nose is not about size, that's why guys like Jay Ratliff and Jason Hatcher have had success at the spot in Wade Phillips' D the last several years (neither crested 300 lbs).

 

Haloti Ngata never played nose, he played 5T with 300-lb Kelly Gregg playing the nose.

 

It's not about size; it's about leverage and occupying blockers. It's not his best fit, but he's worlds better there than at DE, where his lack of height and length would make him a massive liability.

 

Sorry. I swear I wasn't trying to be stuffy

no reason to apologize, wasn't a criticism.

[CommonCents]

Just from browsing over the initial post it sounds like Whaley thinks #23 is a difference maker. I don't see it. How old is Henry Jones? Bring him back if he is under 50.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

For example, Dareus will be fine as a 5-tech or a 4i. So too will Corbin Bryant. Jarius Wynn is an ideal backup 5-tech, and Stefan Charles can give you snaps there as well. Preston Brown can play the thumper in a 3-4, but needs someone rangy that can cover next to him. There's a small chance that Ty Powell can do that, but I wouldn't hang my hat on it. Jerry Hughes is absolutely fine as the Joker, and Manny Lawson can play the Sam (but I'd prefer to see him split snaps there with another pass rusher--Badol suggested a guy like Calvin Pace, who'd be cheap and reliable in that spot)

 

Problem areas are ILB (as I mentioned above), and NT, where Kyle Williams isn't the ideal fit as a 0-technique. He's more of a 1-tech in a 40 front.

 

So I can see where Whaley says he doesn't need an overhaul, but I'd like to see a body brought in to rush the passer as a LB and a more traditional 0-technique. A guy like Brandon Mebane, Terrence Knighton, or BJ Raji may come cheap given their age and mileage.

 

:wub:

 

The thing about Whaley is he usually says what he means and means what he says, but you have to listen carefully, because what he means and what you think he means may not be the same thing.

 

So when Whaley says "Just talking to (Ryan)," Whaley said, "I don’t think we’re going to need to find that many starters. I think once we get Aaron Williams back. Hopefully we can sign Nigel Bradham back. Those are the guys who’ll be there who worked for us in a 3-4. When Pettine was here, those guys worked and played well. I don’t think we need a major overhaul like we did last year with the offense. I think we just need to add some depth and guys who can contribute right away.”, one has to listen carefully. To the casual listener, it may sound as if he doesn't plan changes, but I don't think that's what he means at all!

 

"Those are the guys who'll be there who worked for us in a 3-4" = "there are guys who didn't work for us in a 3-4 who will be gone-ville.

 

"I don't think we need a major overhaul like we did last year with the offense" - added 2 RB, 1 FB, 1 WR, 2?TE, 2 OG, 2 QB. kept 3 OL, 3 WR and a backup RB.

Whaley is saying don't expect us to replace 2/3 of the starters on D. I agree, we have some quality starters.

 

"I think we just need to add some depth and guys who can contribute right away" = they do think they need to find 2 or more immediate starters (my guess would be NT and ILB), as well as a contingency plan, with a high-quality backup for Aaron Williams likely a high priority.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Hopeful

[Manther]

How about if Mario realizes he was a fool and buys in and decides to take a huge cut? What then? Hypothetically that is...

Too late, damage is done.

 

And, its not happening, but, I did play along.

if nothing else, you win the prize for most NFL defensive terminology in one post.

Lmao

 

my problem with all this is.. that Rex has been telling the front office what they wanted to hear since the minute he was interviewed - that he can build a championship team from the existing roster - and that he would deliver a #1 D with the highly priced talent already here. but what he didn't tell them, was that his plan included modifying many of their roles, and conditioning them to react, rather than attack.

 

i'm not arguing whether that was right or wrong.. rather, i'm disturbed by the fact that he's once again sold them on the idea that he will accomplish that transformation without changing much..

Well said!!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

he described "overhaul" as 3-4 new starters on that side of the ball.

 

Except on O, didn't we start the season 6 new starters?

 

New: Miller, Incognito, Taylor, McCoy, Harvin, Clay

Returning: Glenn, Wood, Henderson, Watkins, Woods

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

as a true NT Kyle will get killed, he would need to gain 40Lbs of muscle to do the job, if he did strongman and powerlifting for reps training with high protein/fat diet with moderate carbs MAYBE he could pull it off.

 

Barbarian, see here. When we switched to a 3-4 under George Edwards/Wannstache during the Chan years, Kyle Williams played nose tackle.

And while we heard a lot of stuff about how he didn't "block enough daylight to be a nose tackle", he went to the probowl 2 of those 3 years, which is d**ned hard to do from a losing team.

Brian Galliford had a great article on Buffalo Rumblings about how he was used and why it worked, but I can't find it. I can't run all the lovely terminology :wub: off the top of my head like thebandit27 or some of our other fine posters, but the bottom line is, in those years the D had 99 problems but #95 wasn't one (neither was #99)

 

Now whether Rex would use him as a NT in a way that works with him, or in some way that doesn't use him to his full abilities, can't tell you that.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Hopeful

[Hapless Bills Fan]

my problem with all this is.. that Rex has been telling the front office what they wanted to hear since the minute he was interviewed - that he can build a championship team from the existing roster - and that he would deliver a #1 D with the highly priced talent already here. but what he didn't tell them, was that his plan included modifying many of their roles, and conditioning them to react, rather than attack.

 

i'm not arguing whether that was right or wrong.. rather, i'm disturbed by the fact that he's once again sold them on the idea that he will accomplish that transformation without changing much..

 

Well, first off, I don't think Whaley is saying they won't be changing much. I think he is saying, we won't be adding 6 new starters on D the way we did on O.

I would be highly surprised if we don't see at least 2, probably 3, new starters with another 2-3 guys they hope to sit and develop but could play in a pinch.

 

That said, I share your concern that Rex isn't being honest (probably with himself, for starters) about what he really needs to make his D work.

[Pete]

It is a poker play. What is he supposed to say? We need 3-4 new starters IMO- NT, DE, OLB, ILB, S

[Hapless Bills Fan]

It is a poker play. What is he supposed to say? We need 3-4 new starters IMO- NT, DE, OLB, ILB, S

 

Meaning no offense, that's 5 and I think would fall into the "major overhaul" category.

[Pete]

 

Meaning no offense, that's 5 and I think would fall into the "major overhaul" category.

yeah. We could use 5 at least. DE and NT could be counted as 1 depending what they do with Kyle

[John from Riverside]

We need to just let it play out and see what they do.....

 

I do know this....I dont want Marcel playing the nose. He would be a ideal 5 tech

[YoloinOhio]

 

Except on O, didn't we start the season 6 new starters?

 

New: Miller, Incognito, Taylor, McCoy, Harvin, Clay

Returning: Glenn, Wood, Henderson, Watkins, Woods

yes. He said they had a "major overhaul" last year on offense. Edited January 27, 2016 by YoloinOhio

[Bill from NYC]

as a true NT Kyle will get killed, he would need to gain 40Lbs of muscle to do the job, if he did strongman and powerlifting for reps training with high protein/fat diet with moderate carbs MAYBE he could pull it off.

Kyle, a player I admire, is too short to add that much weight and be able to play NFL football, let alone walk. He is also (imo), WAY too short to play DE. And sadly, KW is not getting any younger.

 

It is an unpopular stance to take here, but I think that there is no place for KW in the Ryan system. Kyle plays well as a penetrating, disruptive DT. If he wants to make the team in 2016, perhaps he can work out with Watkins in the offseason, improving his pass coverage.

[machine gun kelly]

The only overhaul this team needs on defense is a new coach!

 

I fully expect nothing to get better next year. Rex will go all in on his defense which makes sense, but I don't see it working.

[YoloinOhio]

We need to just let it play out and see what they do.....

 

I do know this....I dont want Marcel playing the nose. He would be a ideal 5 tech

i think they will add a pure NT (jmo). He didn't say they wouldn't make any changes at all, he just didn't see the need for an "overhaul" of personnel. Perhaps it's adding a NT, and a 5 technique to replace Mario. That's 2 new starters. It's also with him planning on signing Bradham (his words). If they don't sign Bradham, they probably will need 3 new starters, as you can throw in a LB. I think it goes beyond starters though. They could add only 2 starters, but more so try to add depth on D. Getting Wynn and Powell back from injury is a big help there too.Carrington is a FA and I think he's a good fit for depth, should be rather cheap to re-sign. Edited January 27, 2016 by YoloinOhio

[LynchMob23]

I get that the feelings toward Mario are of the "what did he contribute variety", but for a guy who did nothing, tying the team lead for sacks (5) with Hughes, who can do no wrong (outside of personal fouls, offsides, etc) now is an interesting turn. Getting a rookie at 5T/4i and/or MLB is asking that person to learn the "whole defense" instead of just their positions as Whaley mentioned in one of those blog articles yesterday is a big ask. And then adding in say a Pace, who had 3 sacks last year at age 35?

Seems like a lot of bandaids that are expected to cover over Rex not being as flexible as I thought he'd be with his system.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

yeah. We could use 5 at least. DE and NT could be counted as 1 depending what they do with Kyle

 

This may not be what you meant by "depending what they do with Kyle", but several have suggested putting him at DE, which would be a horrible mistake. Kyle is not a DE, no how no way. He played NT at a probowl level under George Edwards and Dave Wannstadt, although he's not a traditional "big fat hulking" NT. He relies on quickness and leverage, and other things being equal a small quick athletic guy with a big heart can be pwned by a large quick athletic guy with a big heart. But DE would require height and wingspan he simply doesn't have.

 

What do you see as the 5 they need?

 

I think the crying need is ILB. They may need two - a really smart vet who can stuff the run, and a hot rookie who can cover ground. Preston Brown is probably the best they got on the roster, and this season proved he simply can't play MLB effectively in Rex's D. He was decent as an OLB in a 4-3. I think they also need an upgrade at DE or OLB (can probably do with 1 or the other). I think those are the 2-3 urgent needs.

 

I think they also need an upgrade at backup DT/NT and urgently, a better backup to Aaron Williams because he may be ready to come back, but whether his neck will hold up is a great question.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Hopeful

[thebandit27]

I get that the feelings toward Mario are of the "what did he contribute variety", but for a guy who did nothing, tying the team lead for sacks (5) with Hughes, who can do no wrong (outside of personal fouls, offsides, etc) now is an interesting turn. Getting a rookie at 5T/4i and/or MLB is asking that person to learn the "whole defense" instead of just their positions as Whaley mentioned in one of those blog articles yesterday is a big ask. And then adding in say a Pace, who had 3 sacks last year at age 35?

 

Seems like a lot of bandaids that are expected to cover over Rex not being as flexible as I thought he'd be with his system.

I'm saying a rookie ILB that can cover to play next to Brown. He won't be calling plays full time, but a guy like perry who's communication is solid and can play the dual role would be a huge get.

 

No need for a rookie 5T/4i; Dareus/Bryant/Wynn/Charles can handle that.

 

I'm not asking a Pace-type to be a full-time stud; they need an edge defender that can split snaps with Lawson and take 30 plays per game.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I'm saying a rookie ILB that can cover to play next to Brown. He won't be calling plays full time, but a guy like perry who's communication is solid and can play the dual role would be a huge get.

 

No need for a rookie 5T/4i; Dareus/Bryant/Wynn/Charles can handle that.

 

I'm not asking a Pace-type to be a full-time stud; they need an edge defender that can split snaps with Lawson and take 30 plays per game.

 

So Bandit, do you see Kyle Williams as gone?

Kyle, a player I admire, is too short to add that much weight and be able to play NFL football, let alone walk. He is also (imo), WAY too short to play DE. And sadly, KW is not getting any younger.

 

It is an unpopular stance to take here, but I think that there is no place for KW in the Ryan system. Kyle plays well as a penetrating, disruptive DT. If he wants to make the team in 2016, perhaps he can work out with Watkins in the offseason, improving his pass coverage.

 

Sadly, Bill, I think you may be right. Several players commented "when Kyle went out, everything changed". I don't see anyone else on the DL/LB as a leader type. Perhaps I wrong Dareus?

The thing is, it kind of ticks me off that Rex's system is likely so inflexible it can't utilize a player like KW. As commented elsewhere, he did go to the probowl twice playing nose tackle in a 3-4 under Edwards and under Wannstache. But I don't think he was playing NT the way Rex wants to use a NT - I believe Rex's scheme demands a traditional, big bulky space-eater NT.

[thebandit27]

 

So Bandit, do you see Kyle Williams as gone?

 

Sadly, Bill, I think you may be right. Several players commented "when Kyle went out, everything changed". I don't see anyone else on the DL/LB as a leader type. Perhaps I wrong Dareus?

The thing is, it kind of ticks me off that Rex's system is likely so inflexible it can't utilize a player like KW. As commented elsewhere, he did go to the probowl twice playing nose tackle in a 3-4 under Edwards and under Wannstache. But I don't think he was playing NT the way Rex wants to use a NT - I believe Rex's scheme demands a traditional, big bulky space-eater NT.

 

I think they'll keep Kyle. My opinion is that, for the role they likely want him to play, they can get someone much less expensive that can occupy blockers and play a 2-gap scheme at least as well.

 

And you are correct that when he previously played a NT role, he was playing a 1-technique and was responsible for 1 gap, which suits his abilities much better.