Azalin Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 it's not even possible to get consensus on the morality of slavery here. Who here has stated anything other than contempt for Slavery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 I've already stated my case in this very thread, so no. The natural rights of man are only part of your argument then? What's the other part? What's your argument again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) What's your argument again? I believe slavery is morally wrong, as I believe in natural rights and self ownership. That's the entirety of my reasoning. However, I also believe, that because of self ownership, it is perfectly moral for someone to sell themselves into slavery. Now, what's the rest of yours? Edited December 22, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 However, I also believe, that because of self ownership, it is perfectly moral for someone to sell themselves into slavery. What??? That's wacky. Can you give us an example of where this has happened? And that's all to my argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keukasmallies Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 What??? That's wacky. Can you give us an example of where this has happened? And that's all to my argument Indentured servitude was/is a step in that direction as was the practice of buying "substitutes" for what was at the time seen as onerous tasks, e.g., military service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Lawsuit Challenges New Orleans's Plan to Remove Confederate Monuments New York Times Reminder of the real reason: The decision spurred in June when Democratic Mayor Mitch Landrieu, who is eyeing a Senate bid, requested the statues be taken out of the public square and placed in a museum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 Lawsuit Challenges New Orleans's Plan to Remove Confederate Monuments New York Times Reminder of the real reason: The decision spurred in June when Democratic Mayor Mitch Landrieu, who is eyeing a Senate bid, requested the statues be taken out of the public square and placed in a museum. Conservative Judicial activism! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 What??? That's wacky. Can you give us an example of where this has happened? And that's all to my argument So the extent of your argument is an appeal to the natural rights of man? Is that fair to say? And an example is indentured servitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 it's simplistic by necessity. it's not even possible to get consensus on the morality of slavery here. people want to game that simple question. how would broadening the scope be useful? That's not true at all. The only one being ambiguous about their stance on slavery is YOU by refusing to comment on your own support of modern slavery while claiming others here are somehow pro slavery. And by not addressing your own conflict on this issue you prove yourself to be intellectually dishonest. It's hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 So the extent of your argument is an appeal to the natural rights of man? Is that fair to say? And an example is indentured servitude. Sure And you think indentured servitude should be legal in the USA today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 And you think indentured servitude should be legal in the USA today? Yes, if you believe in natural rights and self ownership, then it's the only logically consistent stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 Yes, if you believe in natural rights and self ownership, then it's the only logically consistent stance. No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Yes, if you believe in natural rights and self ownership, then it's the only logically consistent stance. Asking gatorman to make a logically consistent stance, or to even understand logic, is like asking the band Europe to ignore a final countdown. it's what they can't do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 Asking gatorman to make a logically consistent stance, or to even understand logic, is like asking the band Europe to ignore a final countdown. it's what they can't do So you agree with him? Or are you just being your usual d-bag self? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) No Wrong. Natural rights stem from self ownership. If you own yourself, you have the moral right to obligate yourself by entering into contract. If you don't believe this to be true, then you don't believe in self ownership, and therefore cannot believe in natural rights. If that's actually the case, then you'll have to make a different case for your opposition to slavery. Edited December 22, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 Wrong. Natural rights stem from self ownership. If you own yourself, you have the moral right to obligate yourself by entering into contract. If you don't believe this to be true, then you don't believe in self ownership, and therefore cannot believe in natural rights. If that's actually the case, then you'll have to make a different case for your opposition to slavery. Ok, so if, say, I get a 20 year women to sign her life over to me, can I legally beat her, rape her, chain her up? Is that all legal in your world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 What??? That's wacky. Can you give us an example of where this has happened? Drug addiction? Ok, so if, say, I get a 20 year women to sign her life over to me, can I legally beat her, rape her, chain her up? Is that all legal in your world? Huh?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Ok, so if, say, I get a 20 year women to sign her life over to me, can I legally beat her, rape her, chain her up? Is that all legal in your world? It may be distasteful, however if she voluntarily consented to the terms of the contract without being compelled by force or threat of violence, then it absolutely should be legal, and would not be morally wrong in the framework of natural rights. If a person can be said to own themselves, then they reserve the right to do with themselves as they see fit. Huh?? He's making an appeal to emotion fallacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 It may be distasteful, however if she voluntarily consented to the terms of the contract without being compelled by force or threat of violence, then it absolutely should be legal, and would not be morally wrong in the framework of natural rights. If a person can be said to own themselves, then they reserve the right to do with themselves as they see fit. He's making an appeal to emotion fallacy. Chef? What's your take on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) He's making an appeal to emotion fallacy. Yes. Slavery does not have to come along with beatings, rape or bondage. Chef? What's your take on this? Simple answer. Some of the libertarian ideas I disagree with 100% Oh and Mods, mark this down. 12/22/2105 at 8:21am PST gator and Chef agreed on something. Edited December 22, 2015 by Chef Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 Yes. Slavery does not have to come along with beatings, rape or bondage. Oh, yes, the nice slavery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Oh, yes, the nice slavery So you're saying all slaves were beaten, raped and held in bondage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Ok, so if, say, I get a 20 year women to sign her life over to me, can I legally beat her, rape her, chain her up? Is that all legal in your world? If you buy a house, you can't legally burn it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Yes. Slavery does not have to come along with beatings, rape or bondage. Individuals can already agree, quite legally, to enter into contracts that allow them to be beaten and bound. Rape has no place in the discussion, because rape implies a lack of consent. Entering into a contract grants consent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 So you're saying all slaves were beaten, raped and held in bondage? You just said that Individuals can already agree, quite legally, to enter into contracts that allow them to be beaten and bound. Rape has no place in the discussion, because rape implies a lack of consent. Entering into a contract grants consent. But once she signed the document freely giving her rights away, she could never legally say no. Ergo, even if she fought against a guy trying to poke her, it would not be rape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 You just said that No I said just the opposite. Not all slavery came with beatings, rape and bondage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 No I said just the opposite. Not all slavery came with beatings, rape and bondage. So? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 If you buy a house, you can't legally burn it down. That has to do with insurance fraud, and the high probability of damaging property that isn't your own, due to the nature of fire and proximity in most residential neighborhoods. You are certainly free to destroy your own house, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 So? I agree that if someone agrees to be owned by someone else and work for that person for no pay I have no problem with that. It's their life they can do what they choose. You're mention of beatings, rape and bondage have nothing to do with my scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 But once she signed the document freely giving her rights away, she could never legally say no. Ergo, even if she fought against a guy trying to poke her, it would not be rape That would depend on the nature of the contract. Would the contract specify that she retained her sexual rights? What is the duration of the contract? The bottom line is, that by signing such a contract she would have given her consent. If she consents, why is there a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) I agree that if someone agrees to be owned by someone else and work for that person for no pay I have no problem with that. It's their life they can do what they choose. You're mention of beatings, rape and bondage have nothing to do with my scenario. What? If I bought---God forbid!--Ocin--and he refused to work, would you think it legal for me to beat him with a ball bat? That would depend on the nature of the contract. Would the contract specify that she retained her sexual rights? What is the duration of the contract? The bottom line is, that by signing such a contract she would have given her consent. If she consents, why is there a problem? This is stupid, what if she changed her mind after 24 hrs and ran away. Can I call the police and have her arrested for theft of property, herself? Edited December 22, 2015 by gatorman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 This is stupid, what if she changed her mind after 24 hrs and ran away. Can I call the police and have her arrested for theft of property, herself? She should, in fact, be returned as a fugitive if apprehended. She consented. She voluntarily entered into contract. Why do you oppose the application of a person's natural rights in this instance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 She should, in fact, be returned as a fugitive if apprehended. She consented. She voluntarily entered into contract. Why do you oppose the application of a person's natural rights in this instance? Oh brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 What? If I bought---God forbid!--Ocin--and he refused to work, would you think it legal for me to beat him with a ball bat? Of course not. Where have you gotten the idea that I feel that it would be legal? If he refuses to work for you for free and you own him and he refuses to work and wants to leave you take it to the legal department. Now having said that if you took it upon yourself to beat OC it would tend to look the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Oh brother I've asked you a very serious question. Why do you reject protecting an individuals natural rights in the instance I've provided? I assume you support an individual's natural right to die: to terminate their own life, or to ask the assistance of another individual to help them end their life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 Of course not. Where have you gotten the idea that I feel that it would be legal? If he refuses to work for you for free and you own him and he refuses to work and wants to leave you take it to the legal department. Now having said that if you took it upon yourself to beat OC it would tend to look the other way. Poor OC! I've asked you a very serious question. Why do you reject protecting an individuals natural rights in the instance I've provided? I assume you support an individual's natural right to die: to terminate their own life, or to ask the assistance of another individual to help them end their life? Yes, I would Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Yes, I would How is that any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 How is that any different? Very different. Being old, sick and in pain and wanting to be put out of your misery is very different from freely turing your life over to a slave owner, which I doubt anyone would even want to do anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Very different. Being old, sick and in pain and wanting to be put out of your misery is very different from freely turing your life over to a slave owner, which I doubt anyone would even want to do anymore No they are not very different. It's call choice. That is one of the libertarian concepts I do partially agree with. A person's right to choose their own life and how they live it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 No they are not very different. It's call choice. That is one of the libertarian concepts I do partially agree with. A person's right to choose their own life and how they live it. Your natural rights are yours, they can't just be signed away to another person. The only way anyone would want to do this if there was massive poverty and no welfare state. So the poor, the elderly and women would be tempted to do it because there was no where else to turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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