FireChan Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Well, according to some, the chasm is an abyss. Big Cat, let me extend an olive branch here. I think we are seeing a bit of selective amnesia in terms of the 2014 defense. We remember the games where they smothered Detroit, GB, Minn etc etc much more than the first Pats game. I'll give you that. I actually remember arguing that the defense blew it that game by allowing a 3rd and 1 billion conversion in the late stages when we were down 1 score. I think we are all a little biased when it comes to last year's D. However, that bias does not mean that we are inherently wrong or mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I've been thru the analysis phase with this defense.....why the structure doesn't work......why the players can't make the plays offenses are forcing them to make.....but it comes down to this.......this defense is a steaming pile of sh*t compared to what it was last year, what it was supposed to be and what it SHOULD be. Big Cat, let me extend an olive branch here. I think we are seeing a bit of selective amnesia in terms of the 2014 defense. We remember the games where they smothered Detroit, GB, Minn etc etc much more than the first Pats game. I'll give you that. I actually remember arguing that the defense blew it that game by allowing a 3rd and 1 billion conversion in the late stages when we were down 1 score. I think we are all a little biased when it comes to last year's D. However, that bias does not mean that we are inherently wrong or mistaken. Your stance in this thread has served to legitimize the sentiment above. And you've done so, doggedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Your stance in this thread has served to legitimize the sentiment above. And you've done so, doggedly. I'm a dissenting enabler? Badol held his opinion much earlier than I did. And he's more often right than not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackInDaDay Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) Let's talk about execution for a moment. This is the swing pass to Miller that Brown had a chance to stop for no gain or loss of yards. "Analysts" on this board will tell you the linebackers are "being asked to cover too much ground." Others, like me, believe the players are taking poor angles, are lining up wrong, are not communicating well and--on plays like these--doing a lousy job of executing, in general--particularly the linebackers. So. Here's the moment when Tannehill throws the ball. Now, if you believe the playcall intended Landry to be bracketed by FIVE defenders within 20 feet of one another. Then, yes, I would agree with your outrage. Because that's ludicrous. If, however, you believe there is a blatant execution issue here, then, like me, you'll hope the players can get it right because MY GOD THIS COULDN'T HAVE BEEN WHAT THEIR ASSIGNMENTS WERE ON THIS PLAY: This play was a HUGE momentum changer. Should have been broken up, leaving them with third and mile, instead it moved them into our territory, en route to a score. Miami was strong right with both a TE and an H-back on their right hash. We were in a wide 9, 4 man front with Hughes, Dareus, Bryant, and Mario outside their H-back. Both Darby and Graham were on the strong side to defend pass routes from the TE and H-back. Bradham was playing shallow middle zone, while Robey was playing man on Landry. Brown made a good read on the screen, as Landry dragged Robey across the middle with his slant. Both the TE and H-back double-teamed Mario, so the unoccupied Darby and Graham appear as if they had no assignments. From their position on the field, and their knowledge we were in man on the twins left - this was a great call. the only Bill who could have been in a better position to defend the play was our FS, McKelvin, but he may hav been tasked with supporting Robey. correction - we were in Cover-1 Edited November 12, 2015 by BackInDaDay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Miami was strong right with both a TE and an H-back on their right hash. We were in a wide 9, 4 man front with Hughes, Dareus, Bryant, and Mario outside their H-back. Both Darby and Graham were on the strong side to defend pass routes from the TE and H-back. Bradham was playing shallow middle zone, while Robey was playing man on Landry. Brown made a good read on the screen, as Landry dragged Robey across the middle with his slant. Both the TE and H-back double-teamed Mario, so the unoccupied Darby and Graham appear as if they had no assignments. From their position on the field, and their knowledge we were in man on the twins left - this was a great call. the only Bill who could have been in a better position to defend the play was our FS, McKelvin, but he may hav been tasked with supporting Robey. I concur with this analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Well, according to some, the chasm is an abyss. I think the disappointment is the size of a giant chasm. The actual difference is between that of a very good D and a mediocre one. People were hoping they'd get better, not slide back to the middle of the pack. There's still time to get this thing turned around. Last year the D picked it up big time in the 2nd half of the season, allowing something like 16ppg. Hopefully we get similar results this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Dude Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share Posted November 12, 2015 I started this topic on Sunday and there has been many different views. The bottom line is the defense is not what most fans were hopeful for, we are not making enough explosive defensive plays, not enough turnovers and too many penalties/missed tackles. For the Bills to be a competitive playoff contender the defense was expected to be great or least very good. This is not happening after 8 games, teams seem to be doing what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) They also weren't facing a team with the caliber of offense as the Bengals. Or the Giants for that matter. The team that had a good QB, the Chargers, carved them up pretty good. In the Lions game, Calvin Johnson and Reggie Bush both hurt their ankles early and didn't play. The Jets scored 23 but we abused them in offense so that was an easy game. The Fitz led Texans sucked. The Bears were awful last year. The Vikes hadn't got going and didn't have Peterson. The decline in takeaways is a result of less pressure. That's huge. Those defending Rex D don't even want to go there. They want to hang their hat on middle of the road being good. Rex D ranked 31st and 32nd in takeaways his last two years in NY. Sacks don't matter. Takeaways don't matter. Late game-winning drives versus a D that gives away first downs like candy for 3 quarters.....no correlation between the first two, right? Edited November 12, 2015 by #BADOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Dude Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share Posted November 12, 2015 We can only hope tonight is the start of seeing more aggressive attacking style type of defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 The decline in takeaways is a result of less pressure. That's huge. Those defending Rex D don't even want to go there. They want to hang their hat on middle of the road being good. Rex D ranked 31st and 32nd in takeaways his last two years in NY. Sacks don't matter. Takeaways don't matter. Late game-winning drives versus a D that gives away first downs like candy for 3 quarters.....no correlation between the first two, right? The Jets had zero defensive backs last year. Zero. They were starting guys they signed off the street. You know as well as anyone the Jets sabotaged Rex last year, whether you like him or not. He has coached poorly this year. I even think he would admit it. He had some terrible game plans and calls. His players are not ready. There is no denying it. There is also no denying that since the second week of the season teams play different against the Bills. The sack and pressure totals are down half because of Rex and his scheme and half because teams throw immediately against us 80-90% of the plays. The fact he hasn't been able to combat that is a far far bigger problem than no pressure. It's almost impossible to get pressure when the ball is out in two seconds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) The Jets had zero defensive backs last year. Zero. They were starting guys they signed off the street. You know as well as anyone the Jets sabotaged Rex last year, whether you like him or not. He has coached poorly this year. I even think he would admit it. He had some terrible game plans and calls. His players are not ready. There is no denying it. There is also no denying that since the second week of the season teams play different against the Bills. The sack and pressure totals are down half because of Rex and his scheme and half because teams throw immediately against us 80-90% of the plays. The fact he hasn't been able to combat that is a far far bigger problem than no pressure. It's almost impossible to get pressure when the ball is out in two seconds The Bills have lots of DBs this year. The Jets had DBs in 2013 (Cromartie, Landry, and Milliner). It didn't produce turnovers at the rate it should have. It's pretty simple. There is one constant in all of this debate, although I don't know how much it matters: Dennis Thurman. FWIW, the Bills were 6th in TOs forced in 2013, 3rd in 2014, and 12th this year. 12th isn't terrible, but it's borderline middling, and a disappointment given the talent. Hopefully they can get it back on track. Edited November 12, 2015 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 The Bills have lots of DBs this year. The Jets had DBs in 2013 (Cromartie, Landry, and Milliner). It didn't produce turnovers at the rate it should have. It's pretty simple. There is one constant in all of this debate, although I don't know how much it matters: Dennis Thurman. FWIW, the Bills were 6th in TOs forced in 2013, 3rd in 2014, and 12th this year. 12th isn't terrible, but it's borderline middling, and a disappointment given the talent. Hopefully they can get it back on track. Thurman hasn't done anything to lose his job. He hasn't been terrific, mind you. But he hasn't been TERRIBLE. I just don't think it's valuable to **** can the sixth DC in as many years for being middling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOVABillsFan Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Average is better than bad right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Average is better than bad right? Defensively: 2014 spoiled us. 2013 is recalled now with some seriously rosy hindsight. 2012 has been tucked away in the recesses of our collective consciousness, never to be spoken of again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Defensively: 2014 spoiled us. 2013 is recalled now with some seriously rosy hindsight. 2012 has been tucked away in the recesses of our collective consciousness, never to be spoken of again. The last 15 years have nothing to do with this year! Atleast we aren't as bad as that one horrific year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) Defensively: 2014 spoiled us. 2013 is recalled now with some seriously rosy hindsight. 2012 has been tucked away in the recesses of our collective consciousness, never to be spoken of again. According to Football Outsiders, we had the 4th best defense in the NFL in 2013. That's largely a function of the Bills D being 2nd in yards per drive, 5th in plays per drive, 7th in time per drive, and 12th in points per drive despite being 30th in opponents' drive start position (i.e., their opponents consistently had great field position). The Bills' D in 2013 suffered in part because of a bad offense, which was 28th in yards per drive and 31st in time per drive. Edited November 12, 2015 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 The general point that the critics are making is the RR took a defense that played at a high level and with good coordination and altered the system to the point that players (most notably Mario) are not a good fit. Dareus and Mario are two corner stone players who are not playing to the level that they did prior to the coach's arrival. Ask yourself why? Now an argument is made that it takes time to get the right players to fit the coach's system. Wouldn't the smarter approach have been to keep with the system that has worked marvelously and maximized the talents of the players that are currently on the roster? That's what smart coaches do. That is not what the colorful Rex Ryan did. If new players were brought in who fit Rex's scheme that would make more sense than introducing a new scheme with the players who excelled in another scheme. The problem isn't that the players aren't adapting to the scheme so much as it is the boastful HC not adapting to the players he inherited. Rex wanted to demonstrate how smart he is with his unique brand of defense. He outsmarted himself. If you don't believe me just check the record. The bottom line is that the Bills were entering the season as a fringe wild-card team because the Patriots are so entrenched as divisional leaders. The margin of error for us is small. Rex has needlessly made that margin even smaller. I don't think that is definitive John And i do understand the dialogue, thanks for keeping it clear though : ) I had hopes that Defense would be lights out coming out of the gate. To to be rude to anyone, If the margin of error WAS small and it became even smaller isn't that a bit ticky tack? Until they played the Pats we only had pipe dreams. I am not in the grouping that thinks Rex ruined our chances or took a "do it my way " approach. Its been rough to watch at times. The whole team is adjusting to being a family ha ha. last week showed something. Maybe its coming together ? Tonight is a huge game to see whether Bills are improving or floundering. Thanks JohnC. Go Bills Defense! I started this topic on Sunday and there has been many different views. The bottom line is the defense is not what most fans were hopeful for, we are not making enough explosive defensive plays, not enough turnovers and too many penalties/missed tackles. For the Bills to be a competitive playoff contender the defense was expected to be great or least very good. This is not happening after 8 games, teams seem to be doing what they want. seemingly. But i think the defense is forcing teams to play us a certain way. That quick timed route to a spot . The patriots figured it out, and it was the formula until stopped. Thurman and Rex were too slow to respond and we lost games. as of last week we looked a bit better up front. We can only hope tonight is the start of seeing more aggressive attacking style type of defense. up front at least!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 @NFLGameDay The #Bills defense under coach Rex Ryan under their first year: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Average is better than bad right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 FWIW, the Bills were 6th in TOs forced in 2013, 3rd in 2014, and 12th this year. 12th isn't terrible, but it's borderline middling, and a disappointment given the talent. Hopefully they can get it back on track. Actually there are 5 teams tied for 12th in takeaways per game.........that may not be turrible.....but it's also the same as 16th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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