GG Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I am not falling back on 15 years, not really. I don't believe top flight defenses in the NFL are that easy to construct in this day in age... and there is every chance Rex could spend 3 years rebuilding a defense to suit his style and be in a worse position than we are now - or at least were when he arrived. He was the wrong hire. I support him don't get me wrong I even quite like him...... but I just don't think we should be going down the road of dismatintling any of the good things we had before he arrived (for me we have a good General Manager and a very good set of defensive players) to prop him up. If we had just hired Bill Belichick maybe he justifies that - Rex doesn't. I'd move on from Rex if the team ends up outside of the play-offs because the defense hasn't held up its end of the bargain. Again, this is a question of betting everything on this season vs building a foundation for Rex's defenses for the long haul. Of course it's frustrating to see the DL talent wasted this season, but that's the risk that Rex is taking (I'm guessing with full support from his boss). Bills have a lot of cap questions in the offseason regarding Kyle & Mario. Turning both of these guys into more role players from stars is part of the plan, I'm guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Again, this is a question of betting everything on this season vs building a foundation for Rex's defenses for the long haul. Of course it's frustrating to see the DL talent wasted this season, but that's the risk that Rex is taking (I'm guessing with full support from his boss). I'm not sure that is quite true I have to say. I think this defense gives us a window and I think other than hitting on an elite QB (not even a franchise QB - an ELITE QB) then generating a window in the NFL is very tough indeed. It isn't this year vs the next 3 - it is a disagreement on what the best way to win for the next 3 years is. I think it is to ride this defense replacing pieces gradually - I don't think it is to rip it up and start again so that we can fit Rex's scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I'm not sure that is quite true I have to say. I think this defense gives us a window and I think other than hitting on an elite QB (not even a franchise QB - an ELITE QB) then generating a window in the NFL is very tough indeed. It isn't this year vs the next 3 - it is a disagreement on what the best way to win for the next 3 years is. I think it is to ride this defense replacing pieces gradually - I don't think it is to rip it up and start again so that we can fit Rex's scheme. And I happen to believe that having a well-tuned scheme widens that window...A LOT. See: LeBeau, Dick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 We can complain about the scheme not being a fit for the linebackers all we want. Fine. Whatever. Except this team committed to Rex for (reportedly) 3-5 years. The same cannot be said for Brown or Bradham. We brought Rex here to run his scheme. He has the job security to build the roster around his scheme. Why would we want a half-assed approach that keeps changing to fit the personnel? That's not what Rex does. He never has. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. You say the linebackers are being asked to cover too much ground? Well, Rex keeps saying we're not lined up right. Is it the scheme's fault that linebackers keep whiffing on tackles in the flat and in the backfield? I can't imagine any sane person would feel that way. Look, I share your frustration. I wish this defense was the best in the universe, too. But who would you rather invest the future in? Rex's proven scheme? Or a fifth round linebacker whose contract is going to expire and a second year player who was drafted to fit a different scheme? I think the choice is clear. And I think Bills fans are just cranky to have to be going through the growing pains. I'll say it again: We didn't bring Rex Ryan to Buffalo to run Jim Schwartz's scheme. We didn't bring him here to run Pettine's either. We also didn't bring him in here to run a waterered-down version of what he's had a ton of success doing. We brought him here to run his scheme. A scheme that is--by all reports--exceedingly difficult to learn, but has a proven track record of success. I've been on this board for nine years. You'd be hard pressed to find any evidence of my advocating for anything other than staying the course. This situation is no different. Your argument falls apart when you realize we've invested a third round pick into PB and are committed to him for 3 years, invested a second in Bradham, invested in whatever huge number our defensive line costs for the next 4-5 years, invested in Cory Graham for 4 years, invested in Aaron Williams for 4 years. AND invested in Rex for 3-5 years. We've invested far more in the talent than we have "Rex's proven scheme." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 And I happen to believe that having a well-tuned scheme widens that window...A LOT. See: LeBeau, Dick. We had a well-tuned scheme - it didn't need tuning!! You like Rex's scheme - it is ok to say that, and you think his scheme will in the long run be better..... I think there is no guarantee of that and we will waste a lot of talent and team before we get to that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 We had a well-tuned scheme - it didn't need tuning!! You like Rex's scheme - it is ok to say that, and you think his scheme will in the long run be better..... I think there is no guarantee of that and we will waste a lot of talent and team before we get to that point. At the halfway point we're 16th in yards and points. Let's see how those number adjust in the latter half before we're certain it'll fail, too. Your argument falls apart when you realize we've invested a third round pick into PB and are committed to him for 3 years, invested a second in Bradham, invested in whatever huge number our defensive line costs for the next 4-5 years, invested in Cory Graham for 4 years, invested in Aaron Williams for 4 years. AND invested in Rex for 3-5 years. We've invested far more in the talent than we have "Rex's proven scheme." Bradham was a fourth round pick in 2012...two regimes ago. There has been no investment since Rex came on in Mario and/or Kyle. Bringing up safeties refutes nothing I've said. I'm thoroughly confused by your point. Citing faulty investments from prior regimes is precisely why I'm for continuity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 This last week the DL played less. Rex said because of the short week for the next game he used the reserves a lot more. IK played a lot. As did Charles, and Carrington played more. I hope so, and I hope they continue to do it moving forward and not just on the short week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Your argument falls apart when you realize we've invested a third round pick into PB and are committed to him for 3 years, invested a second in Bradham, invested in whatever huge number our defensive line costs for the next 4-5 years, invested in Cory Graham for 4 years, invested in Aaron Williams for 4 years. AND invested in Rex for 3-5 years. We've invested far more in the talent than we have "Rex's proven scheme." Those guys aren't leaving except for Bradham, who will be a UDFA. I don't see how people are equating this to a complete rebuild. Rex is changing the system with the expectation that the core of the defense will still be around, except Mario. He's the biggest talent who's probably gone next year. Interesting that for all the praise Wade is getting for his work in Denver, he did exactly the same in Houston when he moved Mario off the 4-3 DE, and suddenly Mario became expendable. I think they will find room for Kyle in the defense, and was also thinking that someone like Devito joins the Bills next year. Bradham is a very good JAG, but there are many replacements at better value in FA. Aaron Williams has a role in this defense if he can still play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 At the halfway point we're 16th in yards and points. Let's see how those number adjust in the latter half before we're certain it'll fail, too. Bradham was a fourth round pick in 2012...two regimes ago. There has been no investment since Rex came on in Mario and/or Kyle. Bringing up safeties refutes nothing I've said. I'm thoroughly confused by your point. Citing faulty investments from prior regimes is precisely why I'm for continuity. Again, you claim all our players are now faulty investments, based on the investment in Rex. Maybe he's the faulty investment. Those guys aren't leaving except for Bradham, who will be a UDFA. I don't see how people are equating this to a complete rebuild. Rex is changing the system with the expectation that the core of the defense will still be around, except Mario. He's the biggest talent who's probably gone next year. Interesting that for all the praise Wade is getting for his work in Denver, he did exactly the same in Houston when he moved Mario off the 4-3 DE, and suddenly Mario became expendable. I think they will find room for Kyle in the defense, and was also thinking that someone like Devito joins the Bills next year. Bradham is a very good JAG, but there are many replacements at better value in FA. Aaron Williams has a role in this defense if he can still play. How long til we get the defensive roster Rex wants? You think it will be one year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 We had a well-tuned scheme - it didn't need tuning!! You like Rex's scheme - it is ok to say that, and you think his scheme will in the long run be better..... I think there is no guarantee of that and we will waste a lot of talent and team before we get to that point. As I stated in other posts I am not much of a fan of Rex. However, he was given a lucrative five year contract so he is going to be here at least for the next couple or few years. He favors a defensive philosophy that has worked well for him in NY and in Baltimore. And he had players that fit it. Schwartz had a different approach and he had players to match the system. The challenge is for Rex to be flexible and adjust his scheme to the players he has. He seems willing to do so. When some of the players publicly voiced their opinions on how Rex was using them compared to the prior regime he seemed to be receptive to what they were saying. Rex is well acquainted with the NFL of today. It is about frequent player movements. He also is well aware that windows of opportunity are very short and close quickly. If he isn't flexible to wisely use the talent he has on hand on defense he will not succeed and will be entering in his second career as a TV analyst sooner than he intended. There is always an adjustment when a new coordinator joins a team. Rex is not officially a defensive coordinator but to a great extent he really is. I just hope that he is smart enough to play to the players' strengths instead of stubbornly adhere to his favored philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 We didn't bring Rex Ryan to Buffalo to run Jim Schwartz's scheme. We didn't bring him here to run Pettine's either. We also didn't bring him in here to run a waterered-down version of what he's had a ton of success doing. We brought him here to run his scheme. A scheme that is--by all reports--exceedingly difficult to learn, but has a proven track record of success. I suppose this is true. However I remember when Rex was hired he was asked about this. He said he doesn't run a 3-4 or 4-3 or 3-6 or whatever. He runs what his players can do the best. I also remember him and Dennis being all giddy when the guys were running around in shorts in mini camp that these were the most talented players he's ever had. This is why I think it's fair to criticize Rex for what he's doing. He promised us a D that our guys as is could dominate with. So far it ain't happenin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Again, you claim all our players are now faulty investments, based on the investment in Rex. Maybe he's the faulty investment. How long til we get the defensive roster Rex wants? You think it will be one year? I do think it will be set next year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I do think it will be set next year While I hope that's the case, I see it being a 2 year thing, and that's why I refer to it like a rebuild. 2 years is too long. Hell, even 1 year is too long, according to Rex. I don't see us finding heady starters at S and LB, and another starting DT/DE to replace Kyle, and a starting DE/OLB to replace Mario, and another S for depth, and a starting quality WR to replace Percy, and a starting OT to replace Cordy, and even a quality OG to possibly replace Richie. Lots of holes to fill in one year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 While I hope that's the case, I see it being a 2 year thing, and that's why I refer to it like a rebuild. 2 years is too long. Hell, even 1 year is too long, according to Rex. I don't see us finding heady starters at S and LB, and another starting DT/DE to replace Kyle, and a starting DE/OLB to replace Mario, and another S for depth, and a starting quality WR to replace Percy, and a starting OT to replace Cordy, and even a quality OG to possibly replace Richie. Lots of holes to fill in one year. Critiquing things that haven't happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Critiquing things that haven't happened? Making realistic predictions? Also, it's confirmed it's going to take a year at least to get this defense figured out, as evidenced by the fact this defense ISNT GOOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Making realistic predictions? Also, it's confirmed it's going to take a year at least to get this defense figured out, as evidenced by the fact this defense ISNT GOOD. It's 16th in yards and 16th in points. There are eight games to go. Quarterbacks left to face: Geno/Fitz x 2 Hoyer Cousins Bradford Brady Romo? Smith Are you willing to wager that they won't crack the top 10 in either points or yards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) It's 16th in yards and 16th in points. There are eight games to go. Quarterbacks left to face: Geno/Fitz x 2 Hoyer Cousins Bradford Brady Romo? Smith Are you willing to wager that they won't crack the top 10 in either points or yards? Yes. Even though top ten in just one of those categories still isn't that good. Edited November 11, 2015 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Okay. I don't have strong feelings about the defense one way or another. You seem to, though. What will you be willing to do/give up/donate to/alter/contribute if they crack the top 10 in either of those categories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Okay. I don't have strong feelings about the defense one way or another. You seem to, though. What will you be willing to do/give up/donate to/alter/contribute if they crack the top 10 in either of those categories? Signatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bananathumb Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 You guys can bable on forever - as apparently you will - but the defense stinks, especially the linebackers, and all your bickering between yourselves is just snow on a tv screen. Ryan promised a #1 D and he's got a #16 D. What a friggin surprise, Rex! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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