Punching Bag Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 With judges constantly overriding contracted agreements it is time to tell NFL players since the agreement is not workable then it will need to be renegotiated and the NFL will be asking for more including an external organization jointly funded by NFL and NFLPA but independent of both needs to be created. Since the NFL commissioner being in charge of disciple was vacated by something the NFLPA was something they wanted and could not achieve on negotiation table but achieved by outside court intervention the NFL wants something else from their 'partners'. Since the players will not agree to changes since 'they won', a lockout is only solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonabb Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 With judges constantly overriding contracted agreements it is time to tell NFL players since the agreement is not workable then it will need to be renegotiated and the NFL will be asking for more including an external organization jointly funded by NFL and NFLPA but independent of both needs to be created. Since the NFL commissioner being in charge of disciple was vacated by something the NFLPA was something they wanted and could not achieve on negotiation table but achieved by outside court intervention the NFL wants something else from their 'partners'. Since the players will not agree to changes since 'they won', a lockout is only solution. "jointly funded" and "independent of both" is an impossibility. That's why we have courts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipers Hair Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Unless the by-laws or CBA violates the constitution of the United States, a court should have no jurisdiction on a company of any sort... and that's what the NFL is. This is disappointing as I believe courts are overstepping their bounds to get some limelight. Forget the specific violation - what the judge has essentially said, and with past 5 rulings being overturned - its OK to cheat, it's OK to not cooperate with your employer, it's OK to falsify or destroy evidence. At some level, it feels like a microcosm of what ails society today. "jointly funded" and "independent of both" is an impossibility. That's why we have courts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSOL Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Unless the by-laws or CBA violates the constitution of the United States, a court should have no jurisdiction on a company of any sort... and that's what the NFL is. This is disappointing as I believe courts are overstepping their bounds to get some limelight. Forget the specific violation - what the judge has essentially said, and with past 5 rulings being overturned - its OK to cheat, it's OK to not cooperate with your employer, it's OK to falsify or destroy evidence. At some level, it feels like a microcosm of what ails society today. Completely agree. Overlegislation. That's what I was thinking the whole time. Why does a federal court have to decide this, NFL is a private company, don't they have the right to penalize employees as they see fit? Within the guidelines of the law of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 cut off nose to spite face ? the CBA says the penalty for over/under inflated balls is a $25,000 fine. goodell exceeded his authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 At the end of the day, the NFL screwed this up. They did this to themselves. I think about it like this. Goodell and his boys spent $5 million investigating whether deflation of footballs happened and to make a determination as to whether Tom Brady knew about it or now. Based on that report, they handed out the 4 game suspension. What SHOULD have happened is that the report was still released, but the penalty should have been based on Tom Brady's destruction of potential evidence (cell phone/text messages) and obstructing the investigation. Tell me that it goes down the same way with the judge if the position of the front office is that he's being suspended for obstruction in lieu of being suspended for purposely cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 The point is the NFLPA has gotten thru the courts what they have not been able do thru bargaining table and this type of court nullification happens too often. By telling the players that they will lock them out they can force them to understand that what you agreed to on bargaining table, whether you like it or not, is what is going to happen and if you try to get it thru courts then union is useless. If they choose to come back to bargaining table bring the coaches union into it as well since these rules affect whether coaches keep jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingRex Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 With judges constantly overriding contracted agreements it is time to tell NFL players since the agreement is not workable then it will need to be renegotiated and the NFL will be asking for more including an external organization jointly funded by NFL and NFLPA but independent of both needs to be created. Since the NFL commissioner being in charge of disciple was vacated by something the NFLPA was something they wanted and could not achieve on negotiation table but achieved by outside court intervention the NFL wants something else from their 'partners'. Since the players will not agree to changes since 'they won', a lockout is only solution. The owners can lock the plyrs out if they want, but they will not want to do this because the end result will be they will lose. Why would the NFL lose! Because the players have figured out the last thing the NFL owners want to do is actually compete with each other in a true free market. The owners totally kicked the butt of the NFLPA in the mid-80s lockout. The result was that a bunch of smart NY lawyers approached a small talented tenth of NFL athletes led by Gene Upshaw. The total defeat of the NFLPA in the mid-80s lockout meant the rejection of the traditional AFl/CIO model under then NFLPA head Ed Garvey. The total defeat of the AFL/CIO model gave the smart NY lawyers the leverage to convince Upshaw to convince a bunch of egotistic kid athletes to take the radical step of the NFLPA decertifying itself as a bargaining agent. This move would have had the effect of forcing the owners to actually compete against each other. In America, individuals have a right to enter into fair agreements with each other to offer services and compensate them with payments for services. Individuals may choose to give up fundamental American rights for compensation. However, under American law and tradition fundamental rights can not be taken away from you without your specific agreement as reflected in something like a personal services contract. The NFL team owners ran kicking and screaming away from having to actually compete in a free market. The NFL team owners instead said we can make more money and provide a more profitable product for us as NFL team owners to operate our business under a social contract (embodied in the CBA) than we would make as team owners than we would make operating in a free market system where team owners compete against each other. In the end, today's ruling was one that said individuals still have a right to fair and due process even if team owners and players can make more money operating in an economic system operating under a social contract rather than a free market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) The owners can lock the plyrs out if they want, but they will not want to do this because the end result will be they will lose. Why would the NFL lose! Because the players have figured out the last thing the NFL owners want to do is actually compete with each other in a true free market. The owners totally kicked the butt of the NFLPA in the mid-80s lockout. The result was that a bunch of smart NY lawyers approached a small talented tenth of NFL athletes led by Gene Upshaw. The total defeat of the NFLPA in the mid-80s lockout meant the rejection of the traditional AFl/CIO model under then NFLPA head Ed Garvey. The total defeat of the AFL/CIO model gave the smart NY lawyers the leverage to convince Upshaw to convince a bunch of egotistic kid athletes to take the radical step of the NFLPA decertifying itself as a bargaining agent. This move would have had the effect of forcing the owners to actually compete against each other. In America, individuals have a right to enter into fair agreements with each other to offer services and compensate them with payments for services. Individuals may choose to give up fundamental American rights for compensation. However, under American law and tradition fundamental rights can not be taken away from you without your specific agreement as reflected in something like a personal services contract. The NFL team owners ran kicking and screaming away from having to actually compete in a free market. The NFL team owners instead said we can make more money and provide a more profitable product for us as NFL team owners to operate our business under a social contract (embodied in the CBA) than we would make as team owners than we would make operating in a free market system where team owners compete against each other. In the end, today's ruling was one that said individuals still have a right to fair and due process even if team owners and players can make more money operating in an economic system operating under a social contract rather than a free market. Maybe I am over simplistic with this, but the way I view the league and employment is akin to McDonalds, ie a franchise. While team owners fit the bill, the athletes are employed by the greater NFL. They are free to participate in the free market, but to be employed by the NFL you must abide by NFL policy, practices, and employment procedures (ie the draft). The arguement would also imply that each team is a team for sale to compete in any league. As far as I know, no sport works this way (soccer maybe), and would operate under it's own bylaws. I understand what you are saying here. I just don't see the real world application for it. I guess they could go the ND route and be independent, but not sure how this works. The NCAA is a mess and isn't a true governing body (nor can it be). These schools act independently of eachother, something that can't and won't happen without dissolving the shield. Edited September 4, 2015 by Mango Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 At the end of the day, the NFL screwed this up. They did this to themselves. I think about it like this. Goodell and his boys spent $5 million investigating whether deflation of footballs happened and to make a determination as to whether Tom Brady knew about it or now. Based on that report, they handed out the 4 game suspension. What SHOULD have happened is that the report was still released, but the penalty should have been based on Tom Brady's destruction of potential evidence (cell phone/text messages) and obstructing the investigation. Tell me that it goes down the same way with the judge if the position of the front office is that he's being suspended for obstruction in lieu of being suspended for purposely cheating. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonborn10 Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 You have it backwards. The NFL loves the current CBA. The players will opt out as soon as they can. They got screwed in the deal and they have public sentiment on their side. From concussions to a rogue commissioner just making stuff up as he goes, they have the upper hand. The NFL would extend this agreement as long as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go Kiko go Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) Unless the by-laws or CBA violates the constitution of the United States, a court should have no jurisdiction on a company of any sort... and that's what the NFL is. This is disappointing as I believe courts are overstepping their bounds to get some limelight. Forget the specific violation - what the judge has essentially said, and with past 5 rulings being overturned - its OK to cheat, it's OK to not cooperate with your employer, it's OK to falsify or destroy evidence. At some level, it feels like a microcosm of what ails society today. This is an oversimplification, but a CBA is like a contract between the league and the players. The judge held that the type of punishment imposed on Brady breached the "contract." This has nothing to do with whether or not Brady actually broke the rules. When one party breaches a contract, you can seek relief from the courts to enforce the agreement. The court didn't "overstep its bounds." This is what courts are for. Edited September 4, 2015 by Go Kiko go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) Kennesaw Mountain Landis rolled over in his grave after this decision. At this point the courts have completely undermined how pro leagues discipline players. What need is there for a commissioner if they cannot discipline players for compromising the integrity of the game? Litigation and people in robes all too often have become the arbiters of everything in society. This was a league issue, not a federal court case. Edit: Landis is not an admirable figure in sports history. Edited September 4, 2015 by BillsVet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Don't Robert Kraft have a role in this too? He is the owner of the Patriots. Why couldn't he have stood with the commissioner? Couldnt he have imposed a suspension to Brady in the name of the NFL? How are the other owners gonna look at him? Goodell is the guy they chose to represent them and their league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Completely agree. Overlegislation. That's what I was thinking the whole time. Why does a federal court have to decide this, NFL is a private company, don't they have the right to penalize employees as they see fit? Within the guidelines of the law of course. The point is that the penalties have fallen outside the guidelines of the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) Since the NFL commissioner being in charge of disciple was vacated by something the NFLPA was something they wanted and could not achieve on negotiation table but achieved by outside court intervention the NFL wants something else from their 'partners'. Huh? ANyway, what no one seems to notice is the the NFL (owners) really haven't given 2 sh*ts about this entire saga. They have been too busy counting their money. They are too busy enjoying how the NFL has ben the lead on every sports broadcast since the SB and the draft (the dead spot traditionally). The owners love this CBA. They really don't seem to care about the discipline stuff unless it involves the fellas beating the ladies on video--because that actually may be bad for business. As for this Brady stuff, they all (Pegulas included) understand the irresistable story line this perpetuates. The NFLs bad guy just got badder and ratings will have another record year, in no small part because of deflated balls and destroyed cellphones. They could not have scripted this better in the WWE. Edited September 4, 2015 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) The point is the NFLPA has gotten thru the courts what they have not been able do thru bargaining table and this type of court nullification happens too often. By telling the players that they will lock them out they can force them to understand that what you agreed to on bargaining table, whether you like it or not, is what is going to happen and if you try to get it thru courts then union is useless. If they choose to come back to bargaining table bring the coaches union into it as well since these rules affect whether coaches keep jobs. The NFL has attempted to exceed its power under the CBA and the courts have called them on it. And why the !@#$ would any fan want a lock out? Think real hard about what you're asking for here. You want to stop football, and most likely forego a season, for the sake of giving the commissioner carte blanche to impose ad hoc penalties however he choses without any recourse? Is that what your proposed protest is for? Edited September 4, 2015 by Rob's House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Completely agree. Overlegislation. That's what I was thinking the whole time. Why does a federal court have to decide this, NFL is a private company, don't they have the right to penalize employees as they see fit? Within the guidelines of the law of course. Why don't they put in the CBA that their only right to a grievance is through an arbitrator and that they are not allowed to sue in court, like the policies numerous other companies have in place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Kennesaw Mountain Landis rolled over in his grave after this decision. At this point the courts have completely undermined how pro leagues discipline players. What need is there for a commissioner if they cannot discipline players for compromising the integrity of the game? Litigation and people in robes all too often have become the arbiters of everything in society. This was a league issue, not a federal court case. Edit: Landis is not an admirable figure in sports history. BV, i think you should read the judge's decision, if you have not already. Goodell and his legal team look like the keystone cops. It's pathetic. I would be happy to list the almost comical mistakes made by the league, but it would take too long. Don't blame the players or the CBA or American labor laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan_in_raleigh Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Don't Robert Kraft have a role in this too? He is the owner of the Patriots. Why couldn't he have stood with the commissioner? Couldnt he have imposed a suspension to Brady in the name of the NFL? How are the other owners gonna look at him? Goodell is the guy they chose to represent them and their league.his team has cheated and probably continues to cheat. He feels the loss of picks and fine was enough "punishment". Still amazes me that this organization fired the fall guys if they didn't do anything wrong. Now I would live to see the lawsuit from the ex employees maybe the truth would finally come out not just about deflated balls but illegal communications devices and devices utilized to spy on opposing teams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts