QB after Pittsburgh

[PromoTheRobot]

I think it should be Taylor, but I'm fine with Manuel. However, why on God's green earth would the Bills cut Cassel? He's been fine, and relatively speaking the Bills have very little money tied up in the qb position. They are under the cap as well, and Pegula clearly isn't hurting for cash. Given injuries, I think it's wise to keep Cassel even if he is the third string qb. Keep the better player, and this team needs three qbs.

 

Has anyone ever said that coaching doesn't matter in the nfl?

Not in those words but players are judged by their performance without considering the quality of the coaching they receive. EJ sucks because he sucks, not because he had the Keystone Cops coaching him.

[bladiebla]

EJ 5th rated QB overall (behind Drew Brees, Matthew Stafford, Sam Bradford and Matt Ryan), 20/30/66.7%/11.9avg/4TD/358total/146.9 rating.

TT 30th rated QB overall, 24/31/77.4%/7.6avg/0TD/236total/98.3 rating

Meh 49th rated QB overall, 13/15/86.7%/5.5avg/0TD/83total/89.7 rating

 

TT: played a total of 9 drives of which 4 resulted in a TD, 3 in a fg attempt, 1 failed 4th conversion, and 1 punt for a total of 77% scoring drives.

cassel played 4 drives so far of which 2 resulted in a punt, 2 resulted in a fg attempt for a 50% scoring drive result.

EJ: played 13 drives so far of which 5 resulted in a TD, 1 in a fg attempt, 1 failed 4th conversion and 6 punts for a total of 46% scoring drives.

The drives summary doesn't account for drops by WRs (which EJ has suffered the most off, nor does it account for starting field position).

Personally I chose EJ but would be fine with TT given his drive to result ratio. In the end it comes down to whom the players support and how they are currently practising (is EJ lighting it up in practice right now as well?).

Edited August 30, 2015 by bladiebla

[purple haze]

As I have the last few years, going EJ. I think he gives us the best chance. He has shown vast improvement in all areas.

Pits D WAS dreadful, and Taylor still couldn't throw it in for 6. Same thing all pre-season. EJs the guy in my opinion. Either way, as long as MC doesn't start we are going to be fine. I am pretty dam excited for this season.

Taylor has led four TD drives and two drives for field goals, and it would have been three if one wasn't missed. That's a lot of production. I don't care how they score as long as they do. Taylor's drives were mixed with very good throws from the pocket, escaping the rush to throw, read option runs and effective scrambles. He's shown it all, and, as I said, he led four TD drives in his time on the field. If Deonte Thompson didn't drop one, he would have a TD throw in there to satisfy you.

 

EJ has looked dynamite though. Love that he keeps fighting. It's a trait he's shown in some of those 14 games he started. As well as the throws we're seeing this presesaon. He just could never do it consistently. If the lightbulb has come on for him and stays on...Maaaaaaaaaaan!

 

I still think Taylor should get the start and EJ #2. If Taylor keeps playing at the level we've seen, we're in business. I just can't abide Cassell being the starter. He's what I would classify as a perfect backup: steady and safe. The Bills need to swing for the fences. I believe Tyrod or EJ could make five or six yard throws.

[ToGoGo]

This is my opinion too. People who say coaching doesn't matter on today's nfl are being proven wrong by the bills.

 

I'm hearing now that EJ's improvement is due to "coaching". How are we so sure that's the case? What exactly about the current "coaching" is better than the previous "coaching".

 

I understand that it makes sense on the surface, but let's dig into it a bit. Why are we so sure it's the coaching.

[BuffaloHokie13]

 

I'm hearing now that EJ's improvement is due to "coaching". How are we so sure that's the case? What exactly about the current "coaching" is better than the previous "coaching".

 

I understand that it makes sense on the surface, but let's dig into it a bit. Why are we so sure it's the coaching.

It's not even his coaching imo. It's the O-Line coaching and a proper scheme from his OC that are leading to his success.

[ToGoGo]

Taylor has led four TD drives and two drives for field goals, and it would have been three if one wasn't missed. That's a lot of production. I don't care how they score as long as they do. Taylor's drives were mixed with very good throws from the pocket, escaping the rush to throw, read option runs and effective scrambles. He's shown it all, and, as I said, he led four TD drives in his time on the field. If Deonte Thompson didn't drop one, he would have a TD throw in there to satisfy you.

 

EJ has looked dynamite though. Love that he keeps fighting. It's a trait he's shown in some of those 14 games he started. As well as the throws we're seeing this presesaon. He just could never do it consistently. If the lightbulb has come on for him and stays on...Maaaaaaaaaaan!

 

I still think Taylor should get the start and EJ #2. If Taylor keeps playing at the level we've seen, we're in business. I just can't abide Cassell being the starter. He's what I would classify as a perfect backup: steady and safe. The Bills need to swing for the fences. I believe Tyrod or EJ could make five or six yard throws.

 

I really liked what Taylor did yesterday. But here's my concern about having EJ be #2.

 

How is he going to improve without game time? He's not a rookie anymore, he's ready to play and he won't learn from watching Tyrod like he would from watching Peyton or Rodgers.

 

Second I feel like Tyrod is already close to his ceiling, while EJ looks like he's ready to take the step to the next level which after yesterday looks like a level above Taylor. By making EJ #2 I feel like we are stopping him from growing again.

 

How much better is Taylor than EJ that we should stop the guy with the higher ceiling from playing and growing? Like Simon said in a previous thread, is a couple bumps in the road at the beginning worth a long term answer?

[purple haze]

I was actually thinking about this the other day. The receivers have been sounding off in regards to what they like about each QB and we have heard the majority of the comments be in regards to Tyrod and EJ. Cassell seems to be viewed as the Chris Hogan of QB's; a bit short of the first down, a few plays down the field, but generally just dependable and vanilla. Both, oddly enough, are caucasian . Taylor and EJ are exciting, explosive QB's who are more alike with the majority of the receiving corps. They go for the big play, can make moves with their legs and emote a degree of swagger to them. They, like the remaining WR group, are African-American. I don't believe that it matters what your racial background is, but connecting with your peers is a vital aspect of being a QB. If EJ and TT are the better performing QBs at this time, wouldn't it be stupid to start Meh?

In sports connecting w/peers is all about performance. What did Sammy and Woods body language tell us about how they felt about EJ against San Diego and Houston last season? Remember what they said about Orton (at first). They want to win, whoever will help them do that is their guy, black, white, green, young or old.

[Kipers Hair]

EJ 5th rated QB overall (behind Drew Brees, Matthew Stafford, Sam Bradford and Matt Ryan), 20/30/66.7%/11.9avg/4TD/358total/146.9 rating.

TT 30th rated QB overall, 24/31/77.4%/7.6avg/0TD/236total/98.3 rating

Meh 49th rated QB overall, 13/15/86.7%/5.5avg/0TD/83total/89.7 rating

This backs up what our eyes are seeing too. Meh is exactly that, meh... not scaring any DC's right now. In a league where games are decided by 3/4 plays, we need to start the guy who can make a couple of plays...

[purple haze]

 

I really liked what Taylor did yesterday. But here's my concern about having EJ be #2.

 

How is he going to improve without game time? He's not a rookie anymore, he's ready to play and he won't learn from watching Tyrod like he would from watching Peyton or Rodgers.

 

Second I feel like Tyrod is already close to his ceiling, while EJ looks like he's ready to take the step to the next level which after yesterday looks like a level above Taylor. By making EJ #2 I feel like we are stopping him from growing again.

 

How much better is Taylor than EJ that we should stop the guy with the higher ceiling from playing and growing? Like Simon said in a previous thread, is a couple bumps in the road at the beginning worth a long term answer?

I hear you. BUT we don't know what Taylor's cieling is. He's never gotten an opportunity to play. Sometimes players need their chance. How long did Steve Young sit behind Montana? Who thought he would be a Hall-of-Famer? Many didn't. He just needed his chance. He was not the prototypical QB either. Strong arm, but ran too much so it was said. Well, he ran (and threw) all the way to a Super Bowl ring and Hall-of-Fame career.

 

Tyrod could be the guy, but we won't know if he doesn't get the opportunity and his play, so far, indicates nothing but good things.

Edited August 30, 2015 by purple haze

[VanCity]

It's not even his coaching imo. It's the O-Line coaching and a proper scheme from his OC that are leading to his success.

the scheme is obviously much improved, but EJ has been so on the money with his passes that you can't disregard the impact his accuracy has had. Based on his historical play, does this not lead you to believe that his new coaches have played a part in fixing his flaws that led to his inaccuracies?

[Kipers Hair]

In sports connecting w/peers is all about performance. What did Sammy and Woods body language tell us about how they felt about EJ against San Diego and Houston last season? Remember what they said about Orton (at first). They want to win, whoever will help them do that is their guy, black, white, green, young or old.

Wow - I wonder how Elway or Payton Manning connected with their black teammates? Perhaps they made a mean soul dish? In the lockeroom - respect is won on the field, in the weightroom, etch.. The argument about race of the QB is the craziest thing I have read on this site in a long time...

[ToGoGo]

In sports connecting w/peers is all about performance. What did Sammy and Woods body language tell us about how they felt about EJ against San Diego and Houston last season? Remember what they said about Orton (at first). They want to win, whoever will help them do that is their guy, black, white, green, young or old.

 

In my experience playing sports, at first players prefer the guy they like most, whether that's white or black. But once a guy has earned it, they will respect that guy. But if he hasn't, it's going to be a mark against him.

 

I always think about Joe Flacco and how Ray Lewis made his early career miserable, getting the team to root for Troy Smith.

[BuffaloHokie13]

the scheme is obviously much improved, but EJ has been so on the money with his passes that you can't disregard the impact his accuracy has had. Based on his historical play, does this not lead you to believe that his new coaches have played a part in fixing his flaws that led to his inaccuracies?

I think a lot of that can be credited to more time in cleaner pockets. But I'm sure DeBerg and Lee are helping, I just don't think they are the biggest factors.

[MDH]

EJ 5th rated QB overall (behind Drew Brees, Matthew Stafford, Sam Bradford and Matt Ryan), 20/30/66.7%/11.9avg/4TD/358total/146.9 rating.

TT 30th rated QB overall, 24/31/77.4%/7.6avg/0TD/236total/98.3 rating

Meh 49th rated QB overall, 13/15/86.7%/5.5avg/0TD/83total/89.7 rating

 

If you're completing 87% and still only have a 5.5 ypa something is seriously wrong. Having a 5.5 ypa isn't ever going to cut it. There's a reason he's led the offense to zero points in two pre-season games and a scrimmage. How anybody can say that is "solid" is beyond me.

[VanCity]

In sports connecting w/peers is all about performance. What did Sammy and Woods body language tell us about how they felt about EJ against San Diego and Houston last season? Remember what they said about Orton (at first). They want to win, whoever will help them do that is their guy, black, white, green, young or old.

100% accurate. But, the performers right now are TT and EJ. Cassell can't be a WR or RB favourite though. He draws no attention as a threat to run and doesn't put the WR's in a position to make the big plays that they love to make and that win games. It's not a matter of race, it's a matter of leading and Cassell isn't inspiring the tropps with his play.

[Kelly the Dog]

I'm hearing now that EJ's improvement is due to "coaching". How are we so sure that's the case? What exactly about the current "coaching" is better than the previous "coaching".

 

I understand that it makes sense on the surface, but let's dig into it a bit. Why are we so sure it's the coaching.

One of the major changes is that Marrone and Hackett pounded it into EJ's head over and over, don't run and don't make mistakes. That was before and during his second season and was mostly due to the three minor injuries he suffered running. But they went overboard and for the most part didn't want him to run. That put a hold on an important element of his game.

 

Bigger however was the don't make mistakes part. Surely all coaches say don't make mistakes but they drove it so hard that they completely made him robotic and thinking too much rather than just playing football and winging it. He never looked or got comfortable and he always looked skittish and indecisive.

 

EJ himself said this year he was going to forget all that and get back to enjoying the game and letting it fly and not being so tentative. It took a little time to get used to this new offense but the last 3-4 weeks he is comfortable, he is not scared to make mistakes, and is not skittish or tentative, he's winging it.

 

A lot of that was bad coaching and good coaching.

[ToGoGo]

I think a lot of that can be credited to more time in cleaner pockets. But I'm sure DeBerg and Lee are helping, I just don't think they are the biggest factors.

 

What struck me on his 2nd TD pass was that

 

1. He had loads of time and no pressure

2. There was no happy feet. He stayed calm and composed and did not take his eye off his reads.

 

So in my opinion, anyone discounting his throws as easy by saying he had lots of time, has blind spots to all the other awesome qualities he showed.

[chris heff]

At the very least, it's clear EJ has taken a large step forward under a different staff. My fear is that e rides the bench here, then goes to another team and lights it up, while Rex hangs his hat on a running QB.

Last preseason my brother predicted that EJ will end up on another team and come back to haunt the Bills.

 

I've always been an EJ guy. I even predicted he would be the Bills first round pick. I hope they go with EJ. He has prototypical size, a big arm, he can move, and great work ethic. He still has the most potential. I like Taylor, he certainly can move, his arm is way better than I thought, he also has a great work ethic. I wish he were bigger. I won't be disappointed if they give him the job. I'm dumbfounded as to why Cassel is still in the conversation.

[MDH]

A lot of that was bad coaching and good coaching.

 

No doubt. You can't try to coach a player to not be themselves. That's always a recipe for disaster. They took away EJ's legs and his long ball - which are two of his biggest assets. Of course he was going to look horrible trying to be a Cassel type player.

 

The good news is that I think it's helped him become a better pocket passer. He's much better at side-stepping pressure and climbing the pocket than he was in the past two years.

[ToGoGo]

One of the major changes is that Marrone and Hackett pounded it into EJ's head over and over, don't run and don't make mistakes. That was before and during his second season and was mostly due to the three minor injuries he suffered running. But they went overboard and for the most part didn't want him to run. That put a hold on an important element of his game.

 

Bigger however was the don't make mistakes part. Surely all coaches say don't make mistakes but they drove it so hard that they completely made him robotic and thinking too much rather than just playing football and winging it. He never looked or got comfortable and he always looked skittish and indecisive.

 

EJ himself said this year he was going to forget all that and get back to enjoying the game and letting it fly and not being so tentative. It took a little time to get used to this new offense but the last 3-4 weeks he is comfortable, he is not scared to make mistakes, and is not skittish or tentative, he's winging it.

 

A lot of that was bad coaching and good coaching.

 

But here's the thing.

 

When I wrote my previous comment I wanted to point out whether it's really coaching, or if it's just EJ's natural learning curve.

 

If you've ever taken golf lessons, there's a period in time where all you think about is your body position and mechanics. It takes a lot of repetitions and muscle memory. The NFL QB position probably has 50x the amount of knowledge that needs to be absorbed into the subconscious before you can just "let it fly".

 

How do we know it was poor coaching by Marrone and company, and not just EJ absorbing the nuances of the position and now that he's gotten it, he's starting to play without thinking too much.