Brady 4 game suspension upheld; Will go to court

[K-9]

Yes, you do need -- or rather should need -- physical proof to inflict a penalty. They have none. Why don't you just lean on what you have - deflation in the championship game - and go with that? isn't that good enough? The texts suggest there was a pattern and that helps establish that they did it purposely in that game. What happened in prior games isn't germane because of the absolute lack of physical evidence. But again, the texts are helpful in that they establish a pattern that helped nail them in the championship game. They should therefore be penalized for that one game. Whether they did it in prior games or not is neither here nor there because they don't know. Conversations surrounding prior games are helpful in establishing motive in the game that matters. That's it. I'm not naive about their past behavior, but I'm a believer in relying on physical evidence rather than mere supposition animated by a bias against a division rival.

Oh for phuck's sake, determining a previous pattern of behavior supports the behavior indicated in the championship game. Past behavior as it relates to present behavior is ALWAYS germane. Any first year law student knows that. In this case, a pattern of past cheating was established based on that previous behavior and it would have been derelict of the league to overlook the strong indications that Jastremski and McNally had committed previous infractions. The league was absolutely correct in factoring that previous behavior in the penalties the levied. I'm amazed at the lengths you are going to here.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[dave mcbride]

Oh for phuck's sake, determining a previous pattern of behavior supports the behavior indicated in the championship game. Past behavior as it relates to present behavior is ALWAYS germane. Any first year law student knows that. In this case, a pattern of past cheating was established based on that previous behavior and it would have been derelict of the league to overlook the strong indications that Jastremski and McNally had committed previous infractions. The league was absolutely correct in factoring that previous behavior in the penalties the levied. I'm amazed at the lengths you are going to here.

 

GO BILLS!!!

If you read what I wrote above in prior posts, this is exactly what I said - past behavior matters as it applies to the present case. The other cases don't matter because they have no evidence. They used that evidence to establish that they were up to something in the Colts game. They did not use it to establish culpability in prior games because -- again -- they lacked any evidence whatsoever that they doctored the balls to be below 12.5.

[Nanker]

You're right. That's probably why Billy Cole never got suspended for this infraction in The Last Boy Scout.

 

https://www.youtube .com/watch?v=BmYFXr6eSHc

Yes, you're probably right about that.

Say, does anybody know if Cleveland's coach threw the challenge flag or not?

[K-9]

If you read what I wrote above in prior posts, this is exactly what I said - past behavior matters as it applies to the present case. The other cases don't matter because they have no evidence. They used that evidence to establish that they were up to something in the Colts game. They did not use it to establish culpability in prior games because -- again -- they lacked any evidence whatsoever that they doctored the balls to be below 12.5.

Impasse.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[SRQ_BillsFan]

This makes no sense. The ump has control of the balls and if you watch baseball, umps scan and feel if they're right before tossing them to a pitcher. A pitcher will often go through a dozen balls in an inning, and 8 to 10 dozen balls are used on average in any one MLB game. Regardless, the ball ALWAYS comes from the ump. It'd be nearly impossible to doctor it and not get noticed given the nature of baseballs. What you're proposing could never happen in real life.

 

From the MLB official rules page:

 

© Receive from the home club a supply of regulation baseballs, the number and make to be certified to the home club by the league president. The umpire shall inspect the baseballs and ensure they are regulation baseballs and that they are properly rubbed so that the gloss is removed. The umpire shall be the sole judge of the fitness of the balls to be used in the game;

(d) Be assured by the home club that at least one dozen regulation reserve balls are immediately available for use if required;

(e) Have in his possession at least two alternate balls and shall require replenishment of such supply of alternate balls as needed throughout the game. Such alternate balls shall be put in play when --

(1) A ball has been batted out of the playing field or into the spectator area;

(2) A ball has become discolored or unfit for further use;

(3) The pitcher requests such alternate ball.

Rule 3.01(e) Comment: The umpire shall not give an alternate ball to the pitcher until play has ended and the previously used ball is dead. After a thrown or batted ball goes out of the playing field, play shall not be resumed with an alternate ball until the runners have reached the bases to which they are entitled. After a home run is hit out of the playing grounds, the umpire shall not deliver a new ball to the pitcher or the catcher until the batter hitting the home run has crossed the plate.

(f) The umpire-in-chief shall ensure that an official rosin bag is placed on the ground behind the pitchers plate prior to the start of each game.

3.02

No player shall intentionally discolor or damage the ball by rubbing it with soil, rosin, paraffin, licorice, sand-paper, emery-paper or other foreign substance.

PENALTY: The umpire shall demand the ball and remove the offender from the game. In addition, the offender shall be suspended automatically for 10 games. For rules in regard to a pitcher defacing the ball, see Rules 8.02(a)(2) through (6).

But what about the PSI?

 

The NFL should go back to the refs controlling the balls until the game starts with some similar method used to "wear in" the balls and each team should play with the same balls.

 

To me it was dumb to let the players mess with the balls before the game. Seperate but equal, has proven to not be equal. That way if someone does something drastic enough to the balls the other team would (might?) notice.

Edited August 10, 2015 by SRQ_BillsFan

[Kelly the Dog]

But what about the PSI?

 

The NFL should go back to the refs controlling the balls until the game starts with some similar method used to "wear in" the balls and each team should play with the same balls.

 

To me it was dumb to let the players mess with the balls before the game. Seperate but equal, has proven to not be equal. That way if someone does something drastic enough to the balls the other team would (might?) notice.

They never really let the players mess with the Psi.

[K-9]

They never really let the players mess with the Psi.

This is true. Players have been messing with the tactile feel of the ball since the first coin toss. Ball boys and others on the sidelines have let out air in the past. I can recall a game on TV in the late 60s where they actually showed a ball boy pumping up a ball on the sidelines.

 

As you and others have regularly pointed out, letting the air out of the balls on the sidelines during the game would have been met with an admonishment and a fine. Conspiring to steal the game balls from the refs before a game to do it is quite another matter. Doing it at the behest of and with rewards from the starting QB raises it to another level. Seeing evidence of serial behavior in the past added to the scope.

 

Lying about it and then refusing to cooperate made it impossible for the league to do anything but come down in the fashion they did.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[NoSaint]

As you and others have regularly pointed out, letting the air out of the balls on the sidelines during the game would have been met with an admonishment and a fine. Conspiring to steal the game balls from the refs before a game to do it is quite another matter.

GO BILLS!!!

i feel like this talking point keeps escalating. is it really that noteworthy that he walked off with the bag, as opposed to waiting a few minutes to receive them? reading some posts it seems like they are stored in a vault and these guys mission impossible style broke in.

[Kelly the Dog]

i feel like this talking point keeps escalating. is it really that noteworthy that he walked off with the bag, as opposed to waiting a few minutes to receive them? reading some posts it seems like they are stored in a vault and these guys mission impossible style broke in.

He wouldn't have received them without stealing them.

[K-9]

i feel like this talking point keeps escalating. is it really that noteworthy that he walked off with the bag, as opposed to waiting a few minutes to receive them? reading some posts it seems like they are stored in a vault and these guys mission impossible style broke in.

It certainly was to Walt Anderson who, when he went to take the balls onto the field, found they were no longer in the ref's room. I think he said something like, "He can't do that," in response to learning McNally had walked off with them. McNally broke the rules, plain and simple. Maybe not a big deal to some, but knowing what came to pass afterward and given Anderson's earlier admonishment, it wasn't something that could or should have been ignored.

 

Especially because taking the balls gave McNally the opportunity to alter their psi levels in the "bathroom" that only had a sink.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited August 10, 2015 by K-9

[NoSaint]

It certainly was to Wes Anderson who, when he went to take the balls onto the field, found they were no longer in the ref's room. I think he said something like, "He can't do that," in response to learning McNally had walked off with them. McNally broke the rules, plain and simple. Maybe not a big deal to some, but knowing what came to pass afterward and given Anderson's earlier admonishment, it wasn't something that could or should have been ignored.

 

Especially because taking the balls gave McNally the opportunity to alter their psi levels in the "bathroom" that only had a sink.

 

GO BILLS!!!

i just dont know that it feels like a noteworthy escalator. if he were never supposed to possess them or something, sure, i guess..... if he did what hes accused of with the balls, i feel like its fine to simply view it the act of deflating though. do you really escalate the situation based on that point? what type of escalation does it warrant?

He wouldn't have received them without stealing them.

wouldnt they have been given to the teams though not much later?

[Kelly the Dog]

It certainly was to Wes Anderson who, when he went to take the balls onto the field, found they were no longer in the ref's room. I think he said something like, "He can't do that," in response to learning McNally had walked off with them. McNally broke the rules, plain and simple. Maybe not a big deal to some, but knowing what came to pass afterward and given Anderson's earlier admonishment, it wasn't something that could or should have been ignored.

 

Especially because taking the balls gave McNally the opportunity to alter their psi levels in the "bathroom" that only had a sink.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Yep. Walt Anderson said in 19 years of officiating no one has ever taken the balls from him before. McNally can ask the officials if he can take them to the field but then an official is supposed to walk with him. He is the Officials Locker Room Attendant though. So if he didn't steal them he wouldn't have access to them on the field unless he got them from the ballboys. That is the likely reason why they did it this way because at a Championship Game, with so many cameras, it would be easier to spot him by chance messing with them on the sidelines. He isn't supposed to handle the balls at all once he delivers them to the Officials Locker Room.

i just dont know that it feels like a noteworthy escalator. if he were never supposed to possess them or something, sure, i guess..... if he did what hes accused of with the balls, i feel like its fine to simply view it the act of deflating though. do you really escalate the situation based on that point? what type of escalation does it warrant?

 

wouldnt they have been given to the teams though not much later?

Yes but not McNally as I explained above. He is never supposed to touch them at all. He's the officials Locker Room Attendant. He's supposed to deliver a bag of balls to the officials and that is it.

[NoSaint]

Yep. Walt Anderson said in 19 years of officiating no one has ever taken the balls from him before. McNally can ask the officials if he can take them to the field but then an official is supposed to walk with him. He is the Officials Locker Room Attendant though. So if he didn't steal them he wouldn't have access to them on the field unless he got them from the ballboys. That is the likely reason why they did it this way because at a Championship Game, with so many cameras, it would be easier to spot him by chance messing with them on the sidelines. He isn't supposed to handle the balls at all once he delivers them to the Officials Locker Room.

 

Yes but not McNally as I explained above. He is never supposed to touch them at all. He's the officials Locker Room Attendant. He's supposed to deliver a bag of balls to the officials and that is it.

got it. thanks for the clarification.

[K-9]

i just dont know that it feels like a noteworthy escalator. if he were never supposed to possess them or something, sure, i guess..... if he did what hes accused of with the balls, i feel like its fine to simply view it the act of deflating though. do you really escalate the situation based on that point? what type of escalation does it warrant?

 

wouldnt they have been given to the teams though not much later?

Rule Two, Section One of the NFL Rule Bookstates game footballs “shall remain under the supervision of the Referee until they are delivered to the ball attendant just prior to the start of the game.”

 

I guess some rules are more important than others if breaking some shouldn't really matter too much and it's silly to penalize teams for breaking them.

 

Then again, given some of what I've read in this thread the last few days, why have that rule at all? Or any rules for that matter? Who decides which rules are just silly and which ones aren't?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[GaryPinC]

They don't have physical evidence from previous games and therefore have zero idea whether the Patriots were playing with balls below 12.5. They may think they did based on texts, but really, they have no idea. But they do have evidence from the championship game. I'm simply saying that expanding the penalty based on physically baseless suppositions about prior games is overkill. The one game should be enough, but because they want to stick it to the Patriots and Brady, they overreached. That is, in my opinion.

I respect your opinion and you may be right about the overreach. I understand where you're coming from but respectfully would say they do have some idea about the previous games to go after it. Whether or not they can convince judge/jury is the thing.

[Mr. WEO]

Yep. Walt Anderson said in 19 years of officiating no one has ever taken the balls from him before. McNally can ask the officials if he can take them to the field but then an official is supposed to walk with him. He is the Officials Locker Room Attendant though. So if he didn't steal them he wouldn't have access to them on the field unless he got them from the ballboys. That is the likely reason why they did it this way because at a Championship Game, with so many cameras, it would be easier to spot him by chance messing with them on the sidelines. He isn't supposed to handle the balls at all once he delivers them to the Officials Locker Room.

Yes but not McNally as I explained above. He is never supposed to touch them at all. He's the officials Locker Room Attendant. He's supposed to deliver a bag of balls to the officials and that is it.

 

What is Brady's liability for the theft of the balls? (serious question).

[Kelly the Dog]

 

What is Brady's liability for the theft of the balls? (serious question).

IMO most of it. To me it is impossible to believe that McNally did it on his own. The fact that the Patriots and Brady will not let McNally be questioned re-emphasizes that notion. The fact that Brady says ridiculous answers to questions that hurt my brain to consider the fact that someone out there on this earth that would believe it, further re-emphasizes that notion. The fact that no one anywhere disputes the fact Brady asked for the balls to be both given to and measured by the refs at exactly 12.5 and afterwards McNally made them lower even further re emphasizes that notion Edited August 10, 2015 by Kelly the Dog

[K-9]

 

What is Brady's liability for the theft of the balls? (serious question).

Seeing as how there is evidence Brady gave incentives for McNally to alter the balls in the past, he shares culpability in McNally's theft of the balls in this case.

 

Would McNally have stolen the balls if Brady had no concerns about air pressure previously?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Mr. WEO]

IMO most of it. To me it is impossible to believe that McNally did it on his own. The fact that the Patriots and Brady will not let McNally be questioned re-emphasizes that notion. The fact that Brady says ridiculous answers to questions that hurt my brain to consider the fact that someone out there on this earth that would believe it, further re-emphasizes that notion. The fact that no one anywhere disputes the fact Brady asked for the balls to be both given to and measured by the refs at exactly 12.5 and afterwards McNally made them lower even further re emphasizes that notion

 

Is there a text that tells him to swipe the balls from the refs room? If there had never been a situation where the deflator did his dirty deed before in this way, why would Brady ask him to do it this time?

 

Seeing as how there is evidence Brady gave incentives for McNally to alter the balls in the past, he shares culpability in McNally's theft of the balls in this case.

 

Would McNally have stolen the balls if Brady had no concerns about air pressure previously?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

McNAlly never stole the balls in the past...

[JohnC]

Seeing as how there is evidence Brady gave incentives for McNally to alter the balls in the past, he shares culpability in McNally's theft of the balls in this case.

 

Would McNally have stolen the balls if Brady had no concerns about air pressure previously?

 

GO BILLS!!!

There is no doubt that Brady had concerns about air pressure in the balls he used. It is publicly acknowledged that he desired a lower filled ball. The question is did he instruct the ball guys to lower the pressure below the minimum limit? Brady categorically denies that he ever instructed the staff to go below the allowable level.

 

I don't know what the ball guys told the investigators. I'm not sure that they have even admitted to lowering the level for the Colt game. Brady says that he didn't instruct anyone to violate any rules. Is there proof that he did? I don't believe so though most posters believe otherwise.

 

If it is proven that a ball handler tampered with the ball it is still not proven that Brady instructed him to do so. Again, my position is that I don't believe that Brady told him to violate the rules regarding PSI levels. If the ball was tampered with and Brady wasn't involved then I don't see how he could be culpable for the infraction that had no bearing on the game or had a bearing on performance.