Kirby Jackson Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I get the speed argument, but he's had the same opportunities as Hogan and Hogan has produced. That's what this league is about, production. Goodwin hasn't done anything on his time here. Dri Archer 4.26 Tye Hill, Yamon Figures, Darious Hayward bay 4.30 Justin King, Johnathan Joseph, Tyvon Branch 4.31 Demarcus van dyke, Jacoby Ford 4.28 Chris Johnson 4.24 These are the fastest 40's I could find besides Goodwin, that kind of speed doesn't always equate to awesome and/or feared. Only Cj had any real succes based on speed and Gopdwin is no Cj. Goodwin is just another fast runner, a really really fast runner, but that's about it. IMO. He was grossly misused last year (as were others). He has an 18.1 YPC in his 2 years. He is limited to me but you have to keep a safety over the top (that is d coordinators game planning for him) because he will run by you. He has done it on a bunch of occasions where he was missed. Again, this is coming from Rex not me. The safety over the top is 1 less guy near the LOS which helps the running game. It's really not that hard to see his value. He isn't going to catch 40 balls. As I said earlier if you need a guy to play all of the time for 3 games it's definitely Hogan. If I am down 5 in the 2nd half the guy I want getting the handful of snaps is Goodwin. They are different players and each has value. They will both make the team IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 My friend, you're really going to have to start wrapping your head around the distinct possibility that #3 will be the Bills' starting QB this September. and when that happens there will be some very depressed people ready for a room with padded walls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I think if this team lets Hogan walk they will regret it. I am starting to come to the same point as Kirby in thinking they keep 6. Easley is almost a specialist on the team as a gunner rather than as a receiver... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 My friend, you're really going to have to start wrapping your head around the distinct possibility that #3 will be the Bills' starting QB this September. From the sound of it, it sounds like we have a bunch of #3's competing for the starting QB job. I think if this team lets Hogan walk they will regret it. I am starting to come to the same point as Kirby in thinking they keep 6. Easley is almost a specialist on the team as a gunner rather than as a receiver...They can't let Hogan go. If they have an injury he gets elevated up the depth chart. They will trim somewhere else before WR. Maybe they keep 1 less DB b/c of the versatility of Graham? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I will need to revisit my predict the 53 shortly..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I am ready to wager San-O! I will not predict whether they can stash Dez. But i don think they have a choice. Then take your time. I think i can agree with K Jackson your comments are certainly worthwhile readings. and he might know something of that ; ) The Hogan Goodwin dialogue has been on going for two years pretty strong. Thats a good thing. But has been best described by Kirby and Gunner Bill. a matter of degrees of thought. Roman will have trouble with this one is posed the question Marquise or Chris? Pick one. I am a Goodwin fan big time. But i just cannot bring myself to argue against Hogan any more. even that statistical argument about moving the chains. he caught that piss poor pass didnt he? OK, however ends up starting season ahead or ON the depth chart wins. I'm picking Hogan. I get the speed argument, but he's had the same opportunities as Hogan and Hogan has produced. That's what this league is about, production. Goodwin hasn't done anything on his time here. Dri Archer 4.26 Tye Hill, Yamon Figures, Darious Hayward bay 4.30 Justin King, Johnathan Joseph, Tyvon Branch 4.31 Demarcus van dyke, Jacoby Ford 4.28 Chris Johnson 4.24 These are the fastest 40's I could find besides Goodwin, that kind of speed doesn't always equate to awesome and/or feared. Only Cj had any real succes based on speed and Gopdwin is no Cj. Goodwin is just another fast runner, a really really fast runner, but that's about it. IMO. Interesting stat: Goodwin was targeted 9 times year, and caught 1. Just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Interesting stat: Goodwin was targeted 9 times year, and caught 1. Just saying... ...and had zero drops. Not sure that the point has any value. Is it his fault that the QBs missed him over the top? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I forgot this earlier. For those high on Bills Mafia crowd Bills Mafia picks EJ Manuel as Bills starting quarterback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I think if this team lets Hogan walk they will regret it. I am starting to come to the same point as Kirby in thinking they keep 6. Easley is almost a specialist on the team as a gunner rather than as a receiver... Hogan can play and still is a raw football player. He almost seems perfect in NE or Denver. I really hope he makes the roster. And I think it's EJ or Kujo. And it that happens, Whaley is one of the best GMs in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 ...and had zero drops. Not sure that the point has any value. Is it his fault that the QBs missed him over the top? Uhh, well, kind of??? You really want to ignore his play or lack of it all last year EXCEPT for 1 catch: Good luck with the crusade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Uhh, well, kind of??? You really want to ignore his play or lack of it all last year EXCEPT for 1 catch: Good luck with the crusade. Not a crusade but you said that he had 1 catch on 10 targets. He was missed 9 times (he had 0 drops). That is his fault yes or no? I try to stick to the facts. If he had 1 catch and 3 drops you would have an EXCELLENT point. Instead it is just a hollow, small piece of (mis)information. You have a deep threat that they attempted to hit 10 times. They were only able to get it to him once. Edited June 11, 2015 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) He was grossly misused last year (as were others). He has an 18.1 YPC in his 2 years. He is limited to me but you have to keep a safety over the top (that is d coordinators game planning for him) because he will run by you. He has done it on a bunch of occasions where he was missed. Again, this is coming from Rex not me. The safety over the top is 1 less guy near the LOS which helps the running game. It's really not that hard to see his value. He isn't going to catch 40 balls. As I said earlier if you need a guy to play all of the time for 3 games it's definitely Hogan. If I am down 5 in the 2nd half the guy I want getting the handful of snaps is Goodwin. They are different players and each has value. They will both make the team IMO. I'm seeing a bit of a contradiction in your argument. I understand his value as a downfield threat. And, I understand his value as a decoy, drawing out the safety. But, isn't that exactly the way he was used by Marrone, last year? Without a reliable arm throwing him those balls? And would this be why he only caught one out of nine attempts? If we have a better downfield arm throwing to him, then maybe I would agree with you. Do we? If not, and we continue to use him in this way (and, how else would we use him?), it will take two handfuls of snaps to get one big play out of him, and I don't see how that translates to making an impact when it matters. All that aside, it's an interesting discussion-- what do we want out of players lower on the depth chart? I think that some posters might think I'm nuts to suggest we should keep Lewis, a rookie who graded rather average in the draft, over Goodwin (and they're probably right). But,I feel like our lower WRs should be either reliable, versatile (Hogan is both), have unique abilities/attributes, or be an intriguing project. (Lewis is both of the latter, imo). You might consider that Goodwin's speed makes him unique. But, we have two WRs as probable starters who will make big, downfield plays, and both will be effective decoys for the running game. That is what I feel makes him redundant. And, he does not seem to be reliable, and certainly not versatile. Edited June 11, 2015 by Rocky Landing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) I'm seeing a bit of a contradiction in your argument. I understand his value as a downfield threat. And, I understand his value as a decoy, drawing out the safety. But, isn't that exactly the way he was used by Marrone, last year? Without a reliable arm throwing him those balls? And would this be why he only caught one out of nine attempts? If we have a better downfield arm throwing to him, then maybe I would agree with you. Do we? If not, and we continue to use him in this way (and, how else would we use him?), it will take two handfuls of snaps to get one big play out of him, and I don't see how that translates to making an impact when it matters. All that aside, it's an interesting discussion-- what do we want out of players lower on the depth chart. I think that some posters might think I'm nuts to suggest we should keep Lewis, a rookie who graded rather average in the draft, over Goodwin (and they're probably right). But,I feel like our lower WRs should be either reliable, versatile (Hogan is both), have unique abilities/attributes, or be an intriguing project. (Lewis is both of the latter, imo). You might consider that Goodwin's speed makes him unique. But, we have two WRs as probable starters who will make big, downfield plays, and both will be effective decoys for the running game. That is what I feel makes him redundant. And, he does not seem to be reliable, and certainly not versatile. Marrone didn't play him. Not to mention this year is all about "ground and pound." That philosophy should have teams wanting to load the box. If they do that you have him in man coverage over the top. You can run play action if that is the case. If they keep the safety over the top you have 1 less guy defending the run. I am not sure what is confusing? I do not think that it is crazy to think that Lewis is an option. He adds a dimension to the team that they do not currently have. He is a big bodied guy. I think that he ends up on the PS with Hogan and Goodwin on the roster but it isn't crazy to have your opinion on it. I do agree that they have a hard time getting him the ball. That is clear and tough to debate. I know others here want to see him used as a traditional receiver more. I am not advocating that because I think that he is too fragile. I would like to see 8-10 snaps a game. At the end of the day it is a good problem to have. The talent level on this roster is significantly higher than it has been in years. There are NFL caliber players at DL, RB, WR, and DB that will not make the team. They will end up on a roster somewhere. It is a far cry from the days of Donald Jones as your #2. P.s. I apologize for hijacking the thread. I didn't mean to turn this into a conversation about Hogan, Lewis and Goodwin. This play sums up the value that I see in MG. The corner turns and runs and it just doesn't matter. Goodwin separates when the ball is in the air. I guess that I could just see a play or 2 like this changing the outcome of a game. When you are fighting for a playoff berth that play could be the difference: Edited June 11, 2015 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Front Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Goodwin may be fast, but the dude doesn't get open...probably because he is a poor route runner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB3 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Goodwin may be fast, but the dude doesn't get open...probably because he is a poor route runner. The only game where Goodwin really got a play full minutes (rookie season), he was pretty damn good. 6/81yds and 1 TD. Ran his routes really well. His curl was nearly unguardable in man coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 The only game where Goodwin really got a play full minutes (rookie season), he was pretty damn good. 6/81yds and 1 TD. Ran his routes really well. His curl was nearly unguardable in man coverage. Goodwin is definitely a bit underrated. He may not be the best route runner, but his speed gets him open. If he can be consistent enough in his mechanics to not tip off his route to the DB, they'll have to respect the go route every time. Even with safety help, Goodwin can burn both. The curl route should be a high percentage pass more often than not with a decent QB under center. And I feel like that's exactly what's happened when he's been on the field. DBs have given him plenty of space. Now, if he can just stay healthy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB3 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Goodwin is definitely a bit underrated. He may not be the best route runner, but his speed gets him open. If he can be consistent enough in his mechanics to not tip off his route to the DB, they'll have to respect the go route every time. Even with safety help, Goodwin can burn both. The curl route should be a high percentage pass more often than not with a decent QB under center. And I feel like that's exactly what's happened when he's been on the field. DBs have given him plenty of space. Now, if he can just stay healthy... Good points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Goodwin may be fast, but the dude doesn't get open...probably because he is a poor route runner. This is false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Marrone didn't play him. Not to mention this year is all about "ground and pound." That philosophy should have teams wanting to load the box. If they do that you have him in man coverage over the top. You can run play action if that is the case. If they keep the safety over the top you have 1 less guy defending the run. I am not sure what is confusing? I do not think that it is crazy to think that Lewis is an option. He adds a dimension to the team that they do not currently have. He is a big bodied guy. I think that he ends up on the PS with Hogan and Goodwin on the roster but it isn't crazy to have your opinion on it. I do agree that they have a hard time getting him the ball. That is clear and tough to debate. I know others here want to see him used as a traditional receiver more. I am not advocating that because I think that he is too fragile. I would like to see 8-10 snaps a game. At the end of the day it is a good problem to have. The talent level on this roster is significantly higher than it has been in years. There are NFL caliber players at DL, RB, WR, and DB that will not make the team. They will end up on a roster somewhere. It is a far cry from the days of Donald Jones as your #2. P.s. I apologize for hijacking the thread. I didn't mean to turn this into a conversation about Hogan, Lewis and Goodwin. This play sums up the value that I see in MG. The corner turns and runs and it just doesn't matter. Goodwin separates when the ball is in the air. I guess that I could just see a play or 2 like this changing the outcome of a game. When you are fighting for a playoff berth that play could be the difference: I had forgotten how satisfying that play was to watch. He absolutely dusted Cromartie. It's also a play that makes one think that maybe EJ could be the guy. And, there's the rub-- That play couldn't have happened without the ball being right on the money. But, you're right, that speed is unique. I don't mind the thread being hijacked for a page or two in the least. I come on here to learn, and I usually leave the discussion with my opinion tweaked, if not entirely changed. Goodwin is definitely a bit underrated. He may not be the best route runner, but his speed gets him open. If he can be consistent enough in his mechanics to not tip off his route to the DB, they'll have to respect the go route every time. Even with safety help, Goodwin can burn both. The curl route should be a high percentage pass more often than not with a decent QB under center. And I feel like that's exactly what's happened when he's been on the field. DBs have given him plenty of space. Now, if he can just stay healthy... Unfortunately, this might be the one element that makes him ineffectual as a Bill, this season. I wonder how he would do if he were picked up by a team like the Chargers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Henderson to LT, Kujo to RT, Miller & Glenn at G, RIchie moves to Center and Wood to the bench A line Doug Marrone would embrace. Lets plug in players all over, regardless of where they have experience and success Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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