Cassel advantage and explanation of EJ's command issues

[HT02]

I don't get this attachment to EJ, he was a reach in a bad QB draft class. If you look at the pre-draft scouting reports he pretty much resembles what was described in those analysis. Good but inaccurate arm, bad foot work, questionable decision making.

 

I was hoping the scouts were wrong and Whaley was right but I haven't seen any indication of that. I actually like EJ he seem like a great kid with a strong work ethic and someone I would enjoy cheering for but he hasn't shown me a great deal as a QB or team leader.

[NoSaint]

so is the op arguing that cassell is a better leader because he learned from brady that you have to be good to lead?

[Doc]

P. Manning learned from OJT.

 

I don't think Favre had crap to do with Rodgers' success, nor do I think Bledsoe had anything to do with Brady's. Hasselback isn't making Luck any better and Montana didn't make Young a HOF'er.

 

Good QBs are just good.

 

It's also my belief that the great ones don't do much mentoring at all. They're too busy making themselves great. Otherwise Curtis Painter would have been good.

 

The trial by fire thing worked well for both Mannings, as well as most other great QBs. Because they were already great.

 

Problem is ... they are few and far between. People seem to think that because there are 32 teams, that there is a chance for there to be 32 great QBs. It's never been the case, nor will it.

 

In any given year, I'd say there is never more than 5 truly great QBs in the league.

 

The fact that the Bills don't have one doesn't mean anything other than they are the norm.

Brady said Blesoe taught him how to watch film.

[NoSaint]

I don't get this attachment to EJ,

i think at this point its about "why not" and not some huge attachment to the individual. 2 years ago we liked him enough to make him our first pick. since weve only seen him start a few games here and there (most consecutive was 4 or 5?).... overwhelming odds are he doesnt get there. but he has a better shot than a lot of what we could find on the scrap heap or in the mid-rounds.

[Dorkington]

So EJ can't be a leader because he makes mistakes. Yet has similar numbers as Cassel, who can be a leader, because he makes mistakes, but played for the Patriots?

[NoSaint]

So EJ can't be a leader because he makes mistakes. Yet has similar numbers as Cassel, who can be a leader, because he makes mistakes, but played for the Patriots?

roughly, thats what i took from the OP. I dont think the OP will be a successful leader.

[ToGoGo]

roughly, thats what i took from the OP. I dont think the OP will be a successful leader.

 

I thought the OP showed original insight, which is so rare on message boards I personally believe it should be respected whether you agree with it or not. Maybe I just overvalue original insight.

 

I took from the OP the reminder of how valuable learning from a solid pro can be. I've gone into many businesses with no mentor and made so many dumb mistakes and gone down so many wrong roads that I never would have went on if I had somebody to shadow or ask questions to. Mentors give you direction in your field because they've been there. This is not just pertaining to the QB position in the NFL, but to nearly every scenario in life. The OP's point about the value of a mentor is inarguable to me, even if a few exceptional QBs made it without guidance. I can tell you that I ended up making it in a few of those businesses through trial by fire, but it was a lot more difficult than it had to be. It's one thing to be told what to do by some coaches on the sideline, and another to watch a guy go out there and actually do it.

 

There were definitely things Manuel could have learned from Orton and I'm sure he did. He would have to be stubborn not to and he has never come off that way to me. One thing Orton lacked seemed to be character and courage, and character is something that Manuel seems to be great in already. Courage can be taught, I've seen cowards turn into fearless people with my own eyes. I'm not calling Manuel a coward by any means, but he can definitely use some courage to throw the ball into tight places.

[Gugny]

In a league in which most QBs are one hit away from losing their jobs forever (Bledsoe), I don't think incumbent starters are busting at the seams to mentor, coach or help anyone who could have the chance to step in and replace them. That's just my opinion.

[John from Riverside]

I don't get this attachment to EJ, he was a reach in a bad QB draft class. If you look at the pre-draft scouting reports he pretty much resembles what was described in those analysis. Good but inaccurate arm, bad foot work, questionable decision making.

 

I was hoping the scouts were wrong and Whaley was right but I haven't seen any indication of that. I actually like EJ he seem like a great kid with a strong work ethic and someone I would enjoy cheering for but he hasn't shown me a great deal as a QB or team leader.

The attachment to EJ is because we drafted him with a 1st round pick

 

When you draft a QB with a first round pick you really need for that pick to pan out because you dont know when that opportunity will come along again.

 

There were a lot of other things coming out of college on EJ Manuel.......how he was a winner....how he had all of the measurables you look for in a QB......how he looked pretty darn good at the senior bowl.

 

Was he overdrafted? Maybe.....but that is the thing and people are already talking about it with the likes of Bryce Petty.....QBs GET OVERDRAFTED because it is so hard to find one......the good ones never get let go in free agency...yada yada yada.

 

That is the attachment.

[Cynical]

In a league in which most QBs are one hit away from losing their jobs forever (Bledsoe), I don't think incumbent starters are busting at the seams to mentor, coach or help anyone who could have the chance to step in and replace them. That's just my opinion.

 

That would depend on the individuals involved. Some people absolutely refuse to help anybody else because they fear of losing their position to that person.

Other people are more than willing, because they realize mentoring can be a 2 way street.

[John from Riverside]

From what I hear about Matt Cassel he sounds like an excellent fit to mentor a young QB

[NoSaint]

 

I thought the OP showed original insight, which is so rare on message boards I personally believe it should be respected whether you agree with it or not. Maybe I just overvalue original insight.

 

i generally agree that original insight is good but i think he was twisting to get it to fit a point he wanted to make.

 

at its core the point he made was the advantage was cassel is aware that a qb consistently making mistakes will struggle to fill a leadership role. That doesnt take tom brady, and unless hes making a real argument that cassell wont make as many mistakes -- what did it really have to do with an advantage cassel has over EJ? and did brady really teach him that? he needed to focus less on a friendship with TB and more on why he believes hes a better player. Id rather here about his arm, decision making, track record, rather than knowing brady.

 

i do agree with sentiment that we threw EJ out there without a qb coach, vet presence or even experienced OC and that was rough on him.

Edited April 6, 2015 by NoSaint

[ToGoGo]

 

That would depend on the individuals involved. Some people absolutely refuse to help anybody else because they fear of losing their position to that person.

Other people are more than willing, because they realize mentoring can be a 2 way street.

 

I've met both kinds of people in the workforce. I assure you the ones that are afraid of losing their jobs to the younger people eventually do. That karma comes back around.

[chris heff]

I actually think the point is valid.......

 

But I dont think that EJ is soft......I think that EJ has been the victim of a lot of things that doom a young QB

 

- First......just as it was said the moment he was drafted by Mayok....."EJ Manuel is like a piece of clay.....a QB that you can mold into whatever you want" MEANING.......he had everything you look for....but was not NFL ready. So what do the bills do? THey go out and get an injury prone Kolb who on que gets hurt and EJ gets thrown onto the field way sooner then he should have. Manuel should have been holding a clipboard that first year.....regardless of how well he did or didnt do on the field.

 

- Then in that first year EJ was unlucky with the injuries......which took away something that actually should be a big part of his game.....his ability to move and make something from nothing to keep drives going instead of either forcing a bad play......the EJ Manuel that would run for a touchdown when he didnt see a receiver open was actually really fun to watch.....and made him dangerous........

 

- Then you go into this second year......under coaches that have made EVER SINGLE QB UNDER CENTER LOOK BAD WHEN GIVEN ENOUGH TIME......then Marrone frankly panics and pulls EJ (and I was not against it at the time I will admit.....but then Orton goes in....plays well for two games...then starts to suck which goes back to me no QB is looking good under these coaches thing)

 

- Along with all of this......the bills are a running team that frankly cant run the ball.....which makes it even harder on a quarterback.....were it now for what is frankly a super bowl caliber D no way we go 9 and 7

 

So now here we are......El Pegula's bills......crap load of money spend on the O side of the ball........EJ has had his chance to hold a clipboard behind a veteran and another veteran has been brought in......a OC who knows what it is to win in the NFL consistantly......a D with the gang intact.

 

I think EJ is gonna look better........how much better? I cannot say. Cassel is perfect mentoring/placeholding QB......lets just see....lets just see

This is exactly correct.

[ToGoGo]

i generally agree that original insight is good but i think he was twisting to get it to fit a point he wanted to make.

 

at its core the point he made was the advantage was cassel is aware that a qb consistently making mistakes will struggle to fill a leadership role. That doesnt take tom brady, and unless hes making a real argument that cassell wont make as many mistakes -- what did it really have to do with an advantage cassel has over EJ? and did brady really teach him that?

 

i do agree with sentiment that we threw EJ out there without a qb coach, vet presence or even experienced OC and that was rough on him.

 

I mean, I agree with the mistakes point. Knowledge is a necessary component for confidence. Anything that will improve Manuel's knowledge will make him more confident. However confidence does not always lead to leadership. It's a bit of a Venn Diagram between those two qualities. But it's true players in the huddle are more likely to listen to you when they see you doing your job correctly.

 

I think the OP came to the conclusion that Cassel learned how to be more of a leader from watching Brady for several years, and he will bring what he learned to Buffalo and it will hopefully rub off on Manuel. There's a lot of speculation here, but I'd argue reasonable speculation. It's become a bit of a cliche but Cassel will raise the floor on the team's QB position.

 

Tough to prove all the OP's points but I still generally agree with him. Manuel could use mentorship from a veteran QB and Cassel brings good qualities to the fold that Orton might not have had.

[Bocephuz]

http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/8990/cassel-brady-maintain-close-friendship

 

In this article you will see the benefits of having worked with the greatest of our time at the QB position, Tom Brady. To keep this post short, it boils down to the fact that veteran guidance forces a player to learn the correct motions and puts him in his place at the most crucial time of a QB's career to avoid learning bad habits. When Cassel was a rookie, he had Brady correcting him every step of the way.

 

Brady said it best: "Look, you can’t be a guy and seen as a leader if you’re making mistakes, simple mistakes, on the field. You can’t be a guy that goes up and tries to get after somebody else if you’re making those mistakes."

 

EJ was thrown to the lions his first year. No veteran presence, and no QB coach. How could anybody expect him to thrive without that guidance and under the leadership of some pig like Doug Marrone? CJ noted that EJ was too buddy buddy with his players. This really boils down to EJ being confused and not having a mastery of the offense rather than him not being able to have that mental edge to call out other players. He downright KNEW that he wasn't going through the motions correctly, he wasn't reading defenses well, and most importantly putting that ball in the right place.

 

Look we all know after Cassel left the Patriots, his career has been met with inconsistency. But at the very least we have a competent veteran quarterback that has played with the best team and learned under the best QB and has made a playoff run on two different teams. We haven't had a QB that has done this since Drew Bledsoe.

 

Cassel knows the Patriots and openly admitted following them even when he was a Viking. If anybody knows how to beat them it would be either Matt Cassel or Rex Ryan. Cassel is still friends with Brady, and Brady respects him as a good quarterback. Perhaps Cassel is the piece that brings this team respect along with the other offensive options we have on the field, so that teams don't just mentally put themselves over us and lock in a win in their mind, as Brady has done the last decade.

 

Good post OP... it is valid to point out that EJ has not had consistent leadership from a vet QB or QB coach to help in his development in his first 2 years. Cassel seems like the kind of guy who has good huddle presence and he'll be open to working with.. not against. EJ. EJ can only benefit. That being said.. may the best man win.

[chris heff]

How do you learn accuracy and feel for the game?

Practice? You can't teach a guy speed, you can't teach a guy to be 6'4", but can you teach a guy to read defenses and accuracy? Maybe, depends on the guy and who coaches him.

Edited April 6, 2015 by chris heff

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

The point of this thread is to point out the fact that no matter how many offensive options you put on the field, your team will never get respect until two things happen: 1.) Your younger QB Produces. 2.) You bring in a veteran QB like we have done that has respect from NFL players.

 

I hope EJ has progressed, but I really don't believe he had any chance in his first year, and perhaps that has tainted his career. Nobody knows how Manuel has progressed but I hope he wins in training camp. That would be the best thing for this franchise, even if EJ just improved to average starter quality quarterbacking. Manuel is tall to see the field good, strong, and has great mobility for his size. He also is a hardworking respectful mature young man. These are all GREAT traits. And despite what some critics say, he also has an arm on him. His past highlights showcase this, it just is a matter of consistency and if he has the ability to continue that consistency under game conditions. (We have seen him do it once before in the Panthers game). However, bringing in a Pro Bowl QB, that has been to the playoffs numerous times makes teams factor in a QB that can make the plays and execute the correct motions no matter what. Despite inconsistency, it makes teams realize that there is a QB who has done it before with less talent surrounding him, so it's more likely than not he probably can do it again.

 

This is NOT a thread about if Manuel is better than Cassel or vice versa. The person in charge, Rex Ryan, doesn't even know that. The point is to emphasize various POSITIVE points about each quarterback, in an offseason sentiment of pessimism because of our QB situation. Manuel has A LOT of support from his teammates and that is a great sign. But even if he struggles (which I emphasize is NOT his fault as he was a project QB without any mastery of the professional level of play, thrown to the wolves) we have a veteran QB that is RESPECTED by all the various teammates on the teams he has played with a proven track record of NFL success despite inconsistency.

 

 

 

I belive Howard Balzer unearthed this gem the other day on wgr....

 

Apparently qb play is likely to determine the success of the bills this coming season, and maybe even further into the future.

 

This board was sleeping at the wheel on that point.... We all were....

[johnwalter]

i like football

[Punching Bag]

EJ has had nobody to learn how to be a NFL QB in the league. he has had absolutely nobody. Orton is anything but a leader.

 

Leadership is a responsibility that someone has to be willing and wanting to take on and then you learn it from others.

 

EJ stated he learned a lot from Orton - how to view film, run huddle, etc

That is opposite of your opinion.

 

Please do not color facts by your dislike of Orton "tanking" season and retiring,'

There was bad synergy on offense sideline obviously but Orton seemed to be a strong leader until he was constantly beat on due to OL/scheme.