GunnerBill Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I was classed a Johnny "Hater" on here in the run up to the last draft. I was even told that my strength of feeling against drafting him was based on a jealousy for his lifestyle (seriously). My view on his then was the same as it is now. He was a terrific college Quarterback, when the defenses are less complex and the talent levels aren't as consistently high and I said then (and people told me it was the other way round) he was playing with a genuine playmaker at receiver who caught errant passes that frankly shouldn't even have been thrown. Mike Evans was, and is at the next level, a stud. Johnny Manziel is, and was, a huge project at the NFL level. I saw a game that would struggle to transition. I saw average arm talent, I saw an inability to read defences from the pocket, I saw a guy who was first read or tuck run and scramble drill, and I saw a guy run away from defenders in a way that you knew would not be available to him in the pros. These were not criticisms based out of some subjective hatred of Johnny Manziel, these were things I saw watching his games. I was not invested personally in his success or failure, I don't follow a college team I watch college football on a Saturday evening here in the UK when I am not out for the evening. But there was not question there was something inherently intriguing about him, he played with an arrogance and was fun to watch and sometimes there are players where the Xs and Os don't tell the whole story... players who have that little bit of magic. Tebow had that to an extent (Johnny can actually throw), and probably a better example would be Doug Flutie. My stance from there was this - IF you have a guy whose attitude is unquestioned, who you know is gonna work his tail off and who appears to be a sponge wanting to learn and wanting to be taught then maybe you take a risk on the magic transitioning and being able to correct enough of the other elements. If you have a guy who was always questionable off the field then it is simply a waste of your time. Having said all of that - I was surprised by just how much he struggled. That drive against Buffalo they basically ran 2 plays and a scramble drill. That was a red flag.... as exciting as I'm sure that drive was.... it was a "uh oh - does Johnny not know the playbook?" moment. Turns out he absolutely didn't know the playbook. But they should absolutely not close the book on Manziel after whatever it is, 6 quarters of football. My pre-draft prediction for his success or otherwise in the NFL was Vince Young. Now if the Browns could get a level of play out of him that resembled the best of Vince Young he would offer more than Brian Hoyer will ever offer. But my view when he came out was that his chances of finding success as a long term NFL starter were less than 20%...... I'd now say they are half of that at best. I would not be in favour of bringing him to Buffalo, if indeed the Browns do part ways with him. I believe he would add nothing to our roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 A point. But Cyril Richardson gets another year to see what he can do. A better case would be to say "yes, yes, what would we do without Jonathan Meeks, Zebrie Sanders, Tank Carder, Johnny White, or Ed Wang?" Of course, you also have to ask what we would have done without Kyle Williams I think the point trying to be made is that a 5th round pick has about a 20% chance of contributing and a 10% chance of being good. That's considered to be higher odds than JF making it. The risk is that you're using some resources - a draft pick (?), coaching time and energy, practice time and snaps - on an entitled punk who hasn't to date, shown he wants to put in the effort. How many winning seasons has a guy like Kyle Williams, the pinnacle of Bills fifth round pick success, had? How many has he gotten us? Again, if he sucks, cut him. Kyle Williams/Cyril Richardson isn't getting us in the postseason. At least he showed up to practice Thank god. What would we have done if Cyril Richardson blew off a practice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalScotts Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I'm not sure why you say "his teammates HATE him," when the article you link says this: None of his teammates talked about disliking Manziel personally. In fact, a "good guy" theme is prevalent with him. Some players vouch for his work ethic. Left guard Joel Bitonio said "you can tell" Manziel wants to be good and "works his tail off" in the weight room. good question I'm basing it off an interview with the author on Basking and Phelps 92.3 the fan in Cleveland....Joe Thomas and others he stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxer Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 And to make matters worse, it's just another day at the factory of sadness: Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter 3m3 minutes ago Browns WR Josh Gordon flunked another drug test and now will be subject to a one-year banishment, per league sources. More on ESPN @ 6 pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) Pettine cannot stand manziel or Gordon. If they are indeed trying to sign hoyer, as reported, I would not be surprised if both are cut. He is trying so hard to change the culture. I should mention that Manziel and Gordon have been hanging out together a lot. They just got back from Aspen. Edited January 25, 2015 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 the first thing Johny thinks of when he wakes me me me me me what a disaster hungover some mornings, late for meeting when he shows us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I'm not sure why you say "his teammates HATE him," when the article you link says this: None of his teammates talked about disliking Manziel personally. In fact, a "good guy" theme is prevalent with him. Some players vouch for his work ethic. Left guard Joel Bitonio said "you can tell" Manziel wants to be good and "works his tail off" in the weight room. a few things -- JB is a rookie, so he may not be the best pulse of the locker room vets A qb being noted for work ethic is normally not in the weight room, but film and field when mixed bag reports come out its hard to assume the good is true at this point (possible, but.... getting pretty tough) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 How many winning seasons has a guy like Kyle Williams, the pinnacle of Bills fifth round pick success, had? How many has he gotten us? Again, if he sucks, cut him. Kyle Williams/Cyril Richardson isn't getting us in the postseason. You build a quality football team by bringing in talented football players who have the fire in their bellies to be good and are willing to put in the work, and by treating everyone consistently - not by squandering your team's coaching and practice resources on a guy who hasn't shown a bit of evidence that he wants it and is willing to put in the work, and who needs special pampering like guys going to his apartment to get his drunken ass out of bed. You do realize that in order to find out if a guy sucks, you have to commit to him and give him coaching attention and snaps that someone else then isn't getting? How many winning seasons has Sam Bradford brought the Rams? It's not at all the same thing as JF since Bradford would contribute if he could, he's struggled with injuries. The point is 1) you need more than a franchise QB to build a winning football team and 2) it's not enough to have a QB who has potential for greatness, he has to actually realize his potential and if he doesn't (whether by injury, or by having the gratification-control and work ethic of a badly-raised toddler) you're still screwed. Let's quit looking for magic chicken bones and flying after every guy who might be good, if only. I will be tremendously disappointed in Ryan, Whaley, and the Pegulas if JF winds up on this team at any price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 a few things -- JB is a rookie, so he may not be the best pulse of the locker room vets A qb being noted for work ethic is normally not in the weight room, but film and field when mixed bag reports come out its hard to assume the good is true at this point (possible, but.... getting pretty tough) i saw the weight room comment as kind of a reach to find something positive to say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddaryl Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) Manziel was an obvious disaster waiting to happen. At least Cleveland is not going to dwell on it I can not believe there are still Manziel supporters trying to debate this, that's hysterical Edited January 26, 2015 by ddaryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Pettine cannot stand manziel or Gordon. If they are indeed trying to sign hoyer, as reported, I would not be surprised if both are cut. He is trying so hard to change the culture. I should mention that Manziel and Gordon have been hanging out together a lot. They just got back from Aspen. Yolo, source? (Not that I could blame him for not standing them, just want to know) Why did Manziel play at the end of the year then? Was that ownership pressure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Yolo, source? (Not that I could blame him for not standing them, just want to know) Why did Manziel play at the end of the year then? Was that ownership pressure? ive seen no indication that pettine likes Johnny at any time in the last year- and simply from the two personalities its not shocking. id guess the move was 1 part ownership, 1 part hoyer failing so try anything else, and 1 part having to find out if he had any of his college magic if you put him on the field. i did not have the impression that it was pettine thinking he would be a great option though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 good question I'm basing it off an interview with the author on Basking and Phelps 92.3 the fan in Cleveland....Joe Thomas and others he stated. I think a better way of phrasing it might have been "his teammates don't respect him as a football guy". It's like that guy at work, he's a nice guy, good family man, you're happy to have lunch or a beer after work with him 'cuz he's funny. You hate like h*** when he's put on your project team because he can't do his job worth beans and he only counts as half a guy or maybe 1/3 and he takes vacation or medical leave just when the work heats up and everyone else has to scramble to cover. Then there's the other end of the spectrum, the assh*le who's hella competent and gets it done. You don't want to hang with him because he's a jerk, but you want him on your project team. ive seen no indication that pettine likes Johnny at any time in the last year- and simply from the two personalities its not shocking. id guess the move was 1 part ownership, 1 part hoyer failing so try anything else, and 1 part having to find out if he had any of his college magic if you put him on the field. i did not have the impression that it was pettine thinking he would be a great option though. I haven't either but it's one thing to say "you've seen no indication" and another thing to go where Yolo did with a definitive statement that Pettine hates him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 Yolo, source? (Not that I could blame him for not standing them, just want to know) Why did Manziel play at the end of the year then? Was that ownership pressure? in his press conferences he called out Gordon repeatedly and starting all the way back in TC. The articles are out there about the division between the FO and coaches on JM and that he did not want to play him but was told he had to because of Hoyer's downward spiral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) in his press conferences he called out Gordon repeatedly and starting all the way back in TC. The articles are out there about the division between the FO and coaches on JM and that he did not want to play him but was told he had to because of Hoyer's downward spiral. OK thanks. Though I'm sure the Cleveland press is totally reliable and would never blow anything up for the sake of creating controversy and generating views, unlike ours? Still the "meddling owner who changes his views" point stands, and even if there wasn't FO pressure to play Manziel I could see a HC whose season is blown saying "OK, you won't believe me, I'll play him and show you what he is....NOW do you believe me?" I think Chan started what's his name - Brohm - the last game of one season just to make that point "ahem, this guy can't play, he knows what he's seeing, he can't get it done". Edited January 26, 2015 by Hopeful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah John Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 See if the Browns need an OT. Trade Kouandjio (our second last year, not too far away from Cleveland's first) and see if the change of scenery can get both of their careers on track. This worked well for us picking up the under-performing Jerry Hughes from the Colts, for whatshisname. Hughes is set to become very very wealthy, and the other guy, I have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Wagon Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 See if the Browns need an OT. Trade Kouandjio (our second last year, not too far away from Cleveland's first) and see if the change of scenery can get both of their careers on track. This worked well for us picking up the under-performing Jerry Hughes from the Colts, for whatshisname. Hughes is set to become very very wealthy, and the other guy, I have no idea. No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 You build a quality football team by bringing in talented football players who have the fire in their bellies to be good and are willing to put in the work, and by treating everyone consistently - not by squandering your team's coaching and practice resources on a guy who hasn't shown a bit of evidence that he wants it and is willing to put in the work, and who needs special pampering like guys going to his apartment to get his drunken ass out of bed. You do realize that in order to find out if a guy sucks, you have to commit to him and give him coaching attention and snaps that someone else then isn't getting? How many winning seasons has Sam Bradford brought the Rams? It's not at all the same thing as JF since Bradford would contribute if he could, he's struggled with injuries. The point is 1) you need more than a franchise QB to build a winning football team and 2) it's not enough to have a QB who has potential for greatness, he has to actually realize his potential and if he doesn't (whether by injury, or by having the gratification-control and work ethic of a badly-raised toddler) you're still screwed. Let's quit looking for magic chicken bones and flying after every guy who might be good, if only. I will be tremendously disappointed in Ryan, Whaley, and the Pegulas if JF winds up on this team at any price. Who would you rather have? JFF has the most potential out of anyone available. And Bradford sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Who would you rather have? JFF has the most potential out of anyone available. And Bradford sucks. Most potential? Did you see his 2 starts last season? Worst QBR ever. The guy is about as much of an NFL QB as Tebow was. And even then, I'd take Tebow because he's a great teammate and motivator. Bradford is average to below average but he's better than anything we have at the moment. EJ might still be a year or two away from taking control of a football team. Aaron Rodgers sat for 3 seasons before taking over GB. I think EJ learned a lot sitting behind Orton but he might need another year or two sitting behind a veteran and learning how to be a pro before we hand him the reigns again. That is if his confidence isn't already shot (I've heard it was from someone he was dating) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) Who would you rather have? JFF has the most potential out of anyone available. And Bradford sucks. potential to go nuclear that is your unspoken haste to eliminate EJ makes you look sillier with each of these ridiculous posts Edited January 26, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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